77 replies to this topic

[LeftWinger]

Both were offered similar deals between 3.9 and 4.5 although I forget the exact dollar figure Hossa rejected from the Wings. In hindsight would it have been better to keep Hossa instead....clearly yes but at the time I don't think it was that obvious.

 

Keeping both was never really an option considering they already had 2 guys on lifetime deals, they still had hopes Lidstrom would keep playing for a few years and they knew Datsyuk was going to need a new deal in the near future as well.

 

As it stands there is an outside chance Hossa gets bought out this off-season. Chicago isn't in a very pretty spot capwise, with Kruger, Stalberg, Bickell, Mayers, Rozsival, Leddy and Emery all needing to be re-signed with only 4 million in cap space available.

 

Hindsight is always easy to wipe away and see clearer.  I know the options that Holland had and already mentioned that at the time Franzia was lights out every night and in the playoffs, so you cannot blame Holland for thinking that that would continue.  As it turned out, it didn't and keeping him over Hossa looks idiotic right now.

 

I could only hope that Chicago buys out Hossa and Holland reclaims the jewel he lost. But will Hossa want to come back here with our winning ways behind us for the moment? Datsyuk sure would be happy...

[LeftWinger]

I am sure the OP didn't mean for this to become another Franzia v. Hossa debate, but in the end, that is why he has become a whipping boy...we lost our only 40 goal scorer since Shanahan for this guy and he has done nothing to prove that he was the right choice.  I appreciate his 29 goals last season, but when he scores 20 by December and then only nets 9 more the rest of the year, he deserves his whipping boy status.  If he wasn't chosen over Hossa, if we never had Hossa to begin with, he may not be the whipping boy that he is.

[Nightfall]

I sure wish I could have made a decision knowing what the future would have been.

 

Holland made the best decision he could at the time.  Franzen took less money and he was as hot as a pistol.  Hossa went to the Hawks.  If Holland had a crystal ball that worked, like everyone else here had, then don't you think he would have signed Hossa instead?

 

Everyone here berating Holland for the decision he should have made in hindsight is pretty lame.

 

That being said, Franzen has earned his contract money unlike other players.

[number9]

Wasn't Franzen's original cap hit like $5.6 or something? And now it's dropped to 3.9 for the remainder of it?

If he continues to put up 55 pts a season then I think he's worth the 3.9 per year

 

No I didn't intend for this to be a Hossa v. Franzen thread. While were at it does anyone wanna share their opinion on whether or not Osgood will be in the hall of fame? 

[Richdg]

Goal scorers go into hot and cold streaks all the time. That is expected and not an issue. It is the fact that Franzen DOES NOTHING when he isn't scoring. sammy who I am not a fan of keeps working, while in a slump. he skates, checks a little and plays D. Franzen doesn't. he just kinda floats arond the ice. 1 or 2 strides here float float float, then 1 or 2 strides somewhere else.

The really bad part is, Franzen is already 33. He has 7 years left on his contract after this one. His cap hit is 3.95 million every year of his contract. Even if he retires we take the hit. So, and this would be funny if it wasn't so harmfull-we could be hurt by his contract after he RETIRES! Paying for 0 goals per year. 0 points per year. 0 minutes per year. The idea that franzen will still be playing in the NHL in 7+ years is down right laughable. At the rate he is going, he is going to be lucky to have a job in 3 years. The money is gone, nothing can be done about that. But we can do something about the cap hit.

Also, yes he is the problem with our O. The fact that babcocl feels he ahs to play cleary and abby with datsyuk, over franzen speaks volumns.

[WINGS & FLOW]

I am sure the OP didn't mean for this to become another Franzia v. Hossa debate, but in the end, that is why he has become a whipping boy...we lost our only 40 goal scorer since Shanahan for this guy and he has done nothing to prove that he was the right choice.  I appreciate his 29 goals last season, but when he scores 20 by December and then only nets 9 more the rest of the year, he deserves his whipping boy status.  If he wasn't chosen over Hossa, if we never had Hossa to begin with, he may not be the whipping boy that he is.

Didnt Hossa go on a tear during the regular season that year?   Wasnt he the best player on the Wings?

[Richdg]

BTW, just came accross a guess for the cost to sign Clarkson this summer. 4.5 million. Only .5 million more than Franzen. Who is overpaid now?

[GoWings1905]

Hossa was more expensive and the Wings would have had to drop somebody else to afford him.

During the 09 playoffs, the biggest whipping boy for Red Wings fans was Hossa, and Franzen was everybody's sweetheart probably some of the same people who claim we should have signed him instead of Franzen now. People would have been outraged if we signed Hossa and dropped Franzen

 

Not me. Hossa was badly injured during the playoffs and an easy scapegoat. He's still the better player.

[FlashyG]

Goal scorers go into hot and cold streaks all the time. That is expected and not an issue. It is the fact that Franzen DOES NOTHING when he isn't scoring. sammy who I am not a fan of keeps working, while in a slump. he skates, checks a little and plays D. Franzen doesn't. he just kinda floats arond the ice. 1 or 2 strides here float float float, then 1 or 2 strides somewhere else.

The really bad part is, Franzen is already 33. He has 7 years left on his contract after this one. His cap hit is 3.95 million every year of his contract. Even if he retires we take the hit. So, and this would be funny if it wasn't so harmfull-we could be hurt by his contract after he RETIRES! Paying for 0 goals per year. 0 points per year. 0 minutes per year. The idea that franzen will still be playing in the NHL in 7+ years is down right laughable. At the rate he is going, he is going to be lucky to have a job in 3 years. The money is gone, nothing can be done about that. But we can do something about the cap hit.

Also, yes he is the problem with our O. The fact that babcocl feels he ahs to play cleary and abby with datsyuk, over franzen speaks volumns.

 

This is just all kinds of wrong and unlike some of the other Franzen critics who've made good points this lacks any and all sense.

 

First how can Abby and Cleary be playing over Franzen on line 2, when he is playing on line #1 with Zetterberg and Brunner? Technically speaking he's playing over Datsyuk, Cleary and Abby.

 

Secondly, why would he retire costing a team thats been loyal to him when he could just go on LTIR and not cost the team at all should he want to hang them up?

 

Third, your assessment of Franzen's defence is so wrong its mind boggling. Franzen has been on the ice for a total of 4 goals against all season while facing the toughest opposition of anyone on the entire team. Per/60 minutes Franzen ranks 3rd among the Wings forwards in goals against. He trails only Tootoo and Eaves both of which face easier opposition. Sammy on the other hand ranks dead last on the entire team, while facing the worst opposition of the entire team.

 

The only way you can reach the conclusion you did is to either be completely biased, or completely oblivious to what happens on the ice.

BTW, just came accross a guess for the cost to sign Clarkson this summer. 4.5 million. Only .5 million more than Franzen. Who is overpaid now?

 

Clarkson

[Richdg]

This is just all kinds of wrong and unlike some of the other Franzen critics who've made good points this lacks any and all sense.

 

First how can Abby and Cleary be playing over Franzen on line 2, when he is playing on line #1 with Zetterberg and Brunner? Technically speaking he's playing over Datsyuk, Cleary and Abby.

 

Secondly, why would he retire costing a team thats been loyal to him when he could just go on LTIR and not cost the team at all should he want to hang them up?

 

Third, your assessment of Franzen's defence is so wrong its mind boggling. Franzen has been on the ice for a total of 4 goals against all season while facing the toughest opposition of anyone on the entire team. Per/60 minutes Franzen ranks 3rd among the Wings forwards in goals against. He trails only Tootoo and Eaves both of which face easier opposition. Sammy on the other hand ranks dead last on the entire team, while facing the worst opposition of the entire team.

 

The only way you can reach the conclusion you did is to either be completely biased, or completely oblivious to what happens on the ice.

 

Clarkson

Are you Ms. Franzen or what? You realize he is on a 16 g over 82 game pace right? Do you watch him play? he does nothing! Even the one thing he is supposed to do: shot and score he isn't doing. he doesn't hit, he doesn't skate. But your blind man/woman love is refreshing........

 

Just for a point of reference. Clarkson is on a 37 G over 82 game pace.

[The Axe]

Anyone who cant tell the difference between Hosaa and Franzen is insane. Clear speed and skill difference. Very clear. Holland crapped the bed on that one.

[Richdg]

Anyone who cant tell the difference between Hosaa and Franzen is insane. Clear speed and skill difference. Very clear. Holland crapped the bed on that one.

No, they have similiar skills. Hossa uses his and frnazen does not. That is the difference. If we could merge Cleary's heart and effort with Franzens natural God given talent, we would have a 50 goal scorer. But at 33 years of age, that just isn't happening.

[WINGS & FLOW]

This is just all kinds of wrong and unlike some of the other Franzen critics who've made good points this lacks any and all sense.

 

First how can Abby and Cleary be playing over Franzen on line 2, when he is playing on line #1 with Zetterberg and Brunner? Technically speaking he's playing over Datsyuk, Cleary and Abby.

 

Secondly, why would he retire costing a team thats been loyal to him when he could just go on LTIR and not cost the team at all should he want to hang them up?

 

Third, your assessment of Franzen's defence is so wrong its mind boggling. Franzen has been on the ice for a total of 4 goals against all season while facing the toughest opposition of anyone on the entire team. Per/60 minutes Franzen ranks 3rd among the Wings forwards in goals against. He trails only Tootoo and Eaves both of which face easier opposition. Sammy on the other hand ranks dead last on the entire team, while facing the worst opposition of the entire team.

 

The only way you can reach the conclusion you did is to either be completely biased, or completely oblivious to what happens on the ice.

 

Clarkson

Im very confused about the above part that is bolded.  Are you saying Brunner and Franzon are playing better then Pav?

 

In todays NHL you need to have two top lines to be competitive.  Balancing out the skills through lines 1 and 2. 

[FlashyG]

Are you Ms. Franzen or what? You realize he is on a 16 g over 82 game pace right? Do you watch him play? he does nothing! Even the one thing he is supposed to do: shot and score he isn't doing. he doesn't hit, he doesn't skate. But your blind man/woman love is refreshing........

 

Just for a point of reference. Clarkson is on a 37 G over 82 game pace.

 

So what? I said your assessment of his defensive play is completely wrong. I didn't say his offensive numbers have been great this year.

 

Here are a few players quality of competition #'s from this season. (the higher the # the better the opposition)

 

Franzen 4.39

Zetterberg 2.068

Datsyuk 2.820

Samuelsson -1.046

Clarkson 0.298

 

Here is their GAA per 60/m

 

Clarkson 2.01

Samuelsson 3.73

Zetterberg 2.30

Datsyuk 1.70

Franzen 1.20

 

Here is their total # of goals against with them on the ice

Franzen - 4

Zetterberg - 12

Datsyuk - 8

Samuelsson - 2

Clarkson - 9

 

Clarkson may be having a great year, but one great season doesn't make him worth 4.5 million when he's been a sub 50pt player for the entirety of his career. 

Im very confused about the above part that is bolded.  Are you saying Brunner and Franzon are playing better then Pav?

 

In todays NHL you need to have two top lines to be competitive.  Balancing out the skills through lines 1 and 2. 

 

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying that Franzen is playing on Line 1 based on the amount of even strength ice time each line gets. Although that changes from game to game based on Babcocks whims and their opposition.

 

On most recent nights the lines have been

#1 Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner

#2 Cleary - Datsyuk- Abdelkader

#3 Tatar - Andersson-Eaves

#4 Miller - Emmerton-Tootoo

[Richdg]

So what? I said your assessment of his defensive play is completely wrong. I didn't say his offensive numbers have been great this year.

 

Here are a few players quality of competition #'s from this season. (the higher the # the better the opposition)

 

Franzen 4.39

Zetterberg 2.068

Datsyuk 2.820

Samuelsson -1.046

Clarkson 0.298

 

Here is their GAA per 60/m

 

Clarkson 2.01

Samuelsson 3.73

Zetterberg 2.30

Datsyuk 1.70

Franzen 1.20

 

Here is their total # of goals against with them on the ice

Franzen - 4

Zetterberg - 12

Datsyuk - 8

Samuelsson - 2

Clarkson - 9

 

Clarkson may be having a great year, but one great season doesn't make him worth 4.5 million when he's been a sub 50pt player for the entirety of his career. 

Hmmm this will be 2 seasons. BTW its great SEASONS not 2 great playoffs which is why Franzen got paid. Also now you are saying Franzen is a better player than Zetterberg. Well the #'s you are using are. Never mind they play on the same line...... Think there might be a problem with your logic here? Not to mention Datsyuk........ A true fail attempt.

[WINGS & FLOW]

So what? I said your assessment of his defensive play is completely wrong. I didn't say his offensive numbers have been great this year.

 

Here are a few players quality of competition #'s from this season. (the higher the # the better the opposition)

 

Franzen 4.39

Zetterberg 2.068

Datsyuk 2.820

Samuelsson -1.046

Clarkson 0.298

 

Here is their GAA per 60/m

 

Clarkson 2.01

Samuelsson 3.73

Zetterberg 2.30

Datsyuk 1.70

Franzen 1.20

 

Here is their total # of goals against with them on the ice

Franzen - 4

Zetterberg - 12

Datsyuk - 8

Samuelsson - 2

Clarkson - 9

 

Clarkson may be having a great year, but one great season doesn't make him worth 4.5 million when he's been a sub 50pt player for the entirety of his career. 

 

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying that Franzen is playing on Line 1 based on the amount of even strength ice time each line gets. Although that changes from game to game based on Babcocks whims and their opposition.

 

On most recent nights the lines have been

#1 Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner

#2 Cleary - Datsyuk- Abdelkader

#3 Tatar - Andersson-Eaves

#4 Miller - Emmerton-Tootoo

Yep, those have been the lines.  Franzen gets all that 1st line ice time and has 3 goals.  I think you could pritty much stick anyone on that line, Brunner and Zetterberg would still do their thing.

[FlashyG]

Hmmm this will be 2 seasons. BTW its great SEASONS not 2 great playoffs which is why Franzen got paid. Also now you are saying Franzen is a better player than Zetterberg. Well the #'s you are using are. Never mind they play on the same line...... Think there might be a problem with your logic here? Not to mention Datsyuk........ A true fail attempt.

 

Clarkson had 30 goals last year but only 46 pts and was a -8. The player you're calling overpaid scored 1 fewer goal and had 10 more points while finishing +23 on a team that finished with an identical record. I don't really think either would be overpaid but I'd rather Franzen over Clarkson based on his consistency. I'd take Clarkson over Flip though which is a far more likely scenario considering his contract is up and he'll be looking for a similar salary to Clarkson.

 

And you know damn well I'm not saying Franzen is better than Zetterberg or Datsyuk. I don't base my opinions of players based on a stretch of 15 games.  What I am saying is that you seem to have no idea how to assess someone's defensive abilities, and that you are completely wrong about how Franzen has played in his own end this year. Through this very small sample size he's easily been one of, if not our best defensive forward.

[LeftWinger]

This team needs a whipping boy...even as Cup champions they need one.  It just so happens they have two right now, Franzia and Cleary. Some other whip on other players for whatever reason and they have their reason and I respect it.  I cannot stand Franzia, never wanted him to be re-signed over Hossa. Hossa is the heads and tails better player and from the day he signed here, he should have been locked up long term.

 

No, Kenny didn't have a crystal ball and no one would have guessed that Franzine would take a dump like he has.  I knew from the get go that Hossa was the better player and was more than willing to give up Franzine and his three years of great play for Hossa.  It was a no brainer.  But Holland being the better hockey mind, chose otherwise. He was wrong.  Yet, he is still the GM, so he must be right more times than not and I am still in my line of work... I love being able to say I told you so when its all said and done though! It may not change what happened or what Holland will do next, but I love when I am right just as much as I hate when I am wrong... I also like the idea of Chicago buying out Hossa, which I was calling two years ago, and I would love to be right about that! We could get Hossa back and if Holland does that, then you know that he knows he was wrong....

 

Either way, Franzine deserves his whipping boy status despite his 5 goal game that only 2 other Red Wings have done...oh boy!

[FlashyG]

Yep, those have been the lines.  Franzen gets all that 1st line ice time and has 3 goals.  I think you could pritty much stick anyone on that line, Brunner and Zetterberg would still do their thing.

 

Yet when Franzen was out for a couple games that line completely fell apart. Over that span Zetterberg and Brunner were a combined -9 with almost all of their points coming on the PP in one game.

[WINGS & FLOW]

This team needs a whipping boy...even as Cup champions they need one.  It just so happens they have two right now, Franzia and Cleary. Some other whip on other players for whatever reason and they have their reason and I respect it.  I cannot stand Franzia, never wanted him to be re-signed over Hossa. Hossa is the heads and tails better player and from the day he signed here, he should have been locked up long term.

 

No, Kenny didn't have a crystal ball and no one would have guessed that Franzine would take a dump like he has.  I knew from the get go that Hossa was the better player and was more than willing to give up Franzine and his three years of great play for Hossa.  It was a no brainer.  But Holland being the better hockey mind, chose otherwise. He was wrong.  Yet, he is still the GM, so he must be right more times than not and I am still in my line of work... I love being able to say I told you so when its all said and done though! It may not change what happened or what Holland will do next, but I love when I am right just as much as I hate when I am wrong... I also like the idea of Chicago buying out Hossa, which I was calling two years ago, and I would love to be right about that! We could get Hossa back and if Holland does that, then you know that he knows he was wrong....

 

Either way, Franzine deserves his whipping boy status despite his 5 goal game that only 2 other Red Wings have done...oh boy!

Byfuglien can be our new whipping boy   

 

Edit:   Sorry wrong thread

Yet when Franzen was out for a couple games that line completely fell apart. Over that span Zetterberg and Brunner were a combined -9 with almost all of their points coming on the PP in one game.

Who filled in?  I forget

Edited by WINGS & FLOW, 04 March 2013 - 11:35 PM.