114 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

 
Filppula and Tatar should be in the top 6.  Not old man Sammy and old man Bertuzzi.

I don't think Cleary and Abdelkader should be on the team, period. We can find cheap crap on the market that puts up similar numbers with similar icetime that those players are getting.

 

So you think the top six and be stabilized by players already on the roster, but who are either injured (Flip) or could be freed up to play in the top six once an injured player returns (Tatar)?  That sounds almost exactly like what Holland was saying to Pierre LeBrun in the conversation linked above. 

 

For the record, I agree with you about Abby and Cleary, and I do believe Holland should make a move (see my post to Leftwinger above) to solidify the top six.  But barring that, I still think that the return of Bert and Sammy makes us a better team than we are right now.  Even if you have to put Bert and Sammy on the third line after you promote Tatar and Andersson goes back to GR. 

[GMRwings1983]

So you think the top six and be stabilized by players already on the roster, but who are either injured (Flip) or could be freed up to play in the top six once an injured player returns (Tatar)?  That sounds almost exactly like what Holland was saying to Pierre LeBrun in the conversation linked above. 

 

For the record, I agree with you about Abby and Cleary, and I do believe Holland should make a move (see my post to Leftwinger above) to solidify the top six.  But barring that, I still think that the return of Bert and Sammy makes us a better team than we are right now.  Even if you have to put Bert and Sammy on the third line after you promote Tatar and Andersson goes back to GR. 

 

Not really.  That's what I'd do if Holland doesn't make any moves (like I anticipate).    

 

But I still think we need a top 6 winger and a top 4 defenseman.  But who's going to give us those?  We have nothing to trade really.  Holland has set this team back with unnecessary signings, a poor trade last season, and not getting any significant signings coming back.  

 

Now we're in this position, where getting Sammy and Bertuzzi back is supposed to excite us somehow, because we're unlikely to get anything better from another team.  Yikes.  

[kipwinger]

Not really.  That's what I'd do if Holland doesn't make any moves (like I anticipate).    

 

But I still think we need a top 6 winger and a top 4 defenseman.  But who's going to give us those?  We have nothing to trade really.  Holland has set this team back with unnecessary signings, a poor trade last season, and not getting any significant signings coming back.  

 

Now we're in this position, where getting Sammy and Bertuzzi back is supposed to excite us somehow, because we're unlikely to get anything better from another team.  Yikes.  

 

I disagree that we don't have anything to trade, we've got a lot to trade in terms of picks and prospects, and considering the cap is going down next year picks and prospects (that have shown something) are more valuable than ever.  Take a team like New Jersey for example, they have to resign Elias, Zidlicky, Clarkson, Henrique, Ponikarovsky, Liktionov, and they're going to have less cap space to do it.  Surely, they'd consider moving Volchenkov and his 4.5 million dollar cap hit in order to facilitate that.  Especially considering they've already got a glut of NHL ready defensemen.  Tatar and a 3rd would come close to getting it done.  They'd get a pick and a cheap winger who can contribute immediately, we'd get a top four defenseman to play with Kronwall, and we'd lose a good prospect but not one who's integral to the future of this team.  Then we move White or whoever to replace the pick we lost. 

Edited by kipwinger, 05 March 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[GoWings1905]

"We like our team."

Won one playoff game with Nick Lidstrom.

[kipwinger]

"We like our team."

Won one playoff game with Nick Lidstrom.

 

As stated above, Holland has been saying all year that this team is a work in progress and that it might not even make the playoffs.  Not once has he said "we like our team".  Your criticism is noted yet completely erroneous and misguided.  If you want to criticize Holland focus on things like how he lacked a long term vision for how we'd transition into the post Lidstrom era, or how he consistently lowballs helpful free agents because he's cheap and afraid of the cap.  It's pointless to keep parroting something he said years ago when we were frequently competing for cups. 

Edited by kipwinger, 05 March 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Jedi]

"We like our team."

Won one playoff game with Nick Lidstrom.

 

To be fair, last year's playoffs were all kinds of crazy.  Who would have predicted that Boston, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, San Jose, and Chicago would all be out after the first round, St. Louis and Philly out after 2, and an 8th seed not only winning the Stanley Cup, but also being the first team in history to go up 3-0 in each and every series they played...

 

From all the reports I saw post-deadline last year, each team that Detroit contacted for a trade wanted no less than Brendan Smith in return.  That's too high a price to pay for a one-playoff run where we were already likely to lose in the first round anyway...

[GoWings1905]

 
As stated above, Holland has been saying all year that this team is a work in progress and that it might not even make the playoffs.  Not once has he said "we like our team".  Your criticism is noted yet completely erroneous and misguided.  If you want to criticize Holland focus on things like how he lacked a long term vision for how we'd transition into the post Lidstrom era, or how he consistently lowballs helpful free agents because he's cheap and afraid of the cap.  It's pointless to keep parroting something he said years ago when we were frequently competing for cups. 

You made my point largely for me. Holland said it last year at the deadline and the Red Wings won a single game with Nick Lidstrom. Now, he's already resorting to "our injured guys will be our deadline acquisitions" as if they will magically all be healthy together in April.

Even if they get full health, this team is flawed in some major areas. They need a top four d-man (ideally top pairing) and it appears now another top-six forward as well.

My criticism is based on the premise we have pretty much gotten the same philosophy from Holland since 2010. Not much risk taking, probably too much loyalty and a reliance on health, when in reality the Red Wings need an infusion of skill and new bodies.

I probably should have elaborated more in my original post. I just think the concept of going forward with this team as is and not exploring changes is going to end with quick playoff failure.

[kipwinger]

You made my point largely for me. Holland said it last year at the deadline and the Red Wings won a single game with Nick Lidstrom. Now, he's already resorting to "our injured guys will be our deadline acquisitions" as if they will magically all be healthy together in April.

Even if they get full health, this team is flawed in some major areas. They need a top four d-man (ideally top pairing) and it appears now another top-six forward as well.

My criticism is based on the premise we have pretty much gotten the same philosophy from Holland since 2010. Not much risk taking, probably too much loyalty and a reliance on health, when in reality the Red Wings need an infusion of skill and new bodies.

I probably should have elaborated more in my original post. I just think the concept of going forward with this team as is and not exploring changes is going to end with quick playoff failure.

 

Right I agree, and I've stated all along in this thread that we need another d-man and a top six winger.  My point is that I don't think Holland is saying "we like our team" when he says that getting injured guys back is like a deadline acquisition.  I think he's just pointing out that we're already a competitive team, even without Helm, Flip, Bert, Sammy and that getting those guys back only makes us more effective.  He's obviously aware that we need another forward and a d-man because he explicitly said so in a different interview about two weeks ago.  Everyone is so frustrated by the lack of success that they're misinterpreting him this time around.

[Richdg]

This is a hard one. What would you expect Holland to say? Our team is crap and we can't make any moves becasue everyone wants our only 5 NHL ready guys?

Public convo's like this shoudl never be counted on to much. Most GM's in most sports really don't say a lot.

[irishock]

I think Kenny absolutely believes in what he says.

[kipwinger]

I think Kenny absolutely believes in what he says.

 

Right, which is that getting guys back is LIKE a deadline acquisition?  Take ANY competitive team, which we are, and add 4 top nine forwards and depth defenseman and it's impressive.  Or to put it another way, if our team was made up of the exact roster that we're putting on the ice tonight, and then on April 3rd we traded for Filppula, Helm, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and Colaiacovo, people would go nuts over how awesome Ken Holland is.  If anything, people should be mad at how obviously true his statement is, not that the logic is somehow flawed. 

[The Greek]

To everyone freaking out, who would you be willing to part with that would net us a difference maker? Spare me the NHL 13 gm mode nonsense. I'm liking what I'm seeing, a changing of the guard. We're finally starting to see our young guys come in and make a difference. There are going to be bumps along the way, but that's what happens during transition years. We are not going to get anything for scraps and I don't think we're one key piece from a cup. I'm willing to wait it out. This summer we're going to see some real changes. We're going to add a few more guys from GR and our rookies from this year will have some experience. Not to mention, a few guys will hopefully be gone.

Edited by The Greek, 05 March 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[kipwinger]

To everyone freaking out, who would you be willing to part with that would net us a difference maker? Spare me the NHL 13 gm mode nonsense. I'm liking what I'm seeing, a changing of the guard. We're finally starting to see our young guys come in and make a difference. There are going to be bumps along the way, but that's what happens during transition years. We are not going to get anything for scraps and I don't think we're one key piece from a cup. I'm willing to wait it out. This summer we're going to see some real changes. We're going to add a few more guys from GR and our rookies from this year will have some experience. Not to mention, a few guys will hopefully be gone.

 

We played the best team in the league to an overtime loss and a shootout loss.  We've split our two games against the defending cup champions, and we've beaten the third, fifth, sixth, seventh, and all the teams tied with us for the 8th seed.  We're as competitive or more so than any team in the national hockey league right now.  How are we not a piece (or maybe two) away from having a real chance at the cup? 

 

A rebuild now is pointless, especially as the core of our team continues to age.  We can rebuild in two years when Sproul, Quellet, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, etc. are NHL ready and Datsyuk may or may not be leaving.  For now, trade Tatar, Nyquist, or both and some picks and acquire the pieces to put us over the top. 

Edited by kipwinger, 05 March 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Hockeymom1960]

I found it ironic when Kenny said "this team may not make the playoffs".

 

I thought it was his job to fix that problem?

 

Also why would he say something like that?  I certainly wouldn't say we might not make the playoffs.  Should have said something to the fact that we're going to do the best we can to make the playoffs.

[The Greek]

 
We played the best team in the league to an overtime loss and a shootout loss.  We've split our two games against the defending cup champions, and we've beaten the third, fifth, sixth, seventh, and all the teams tied with us for the 8th seed.  We're as competitive or more so than any team in the national hockey league right now.  How are we not a piece (or maybe two) away from having a real chance at the cup? 
 
A rebuild now is pointless, especially as the core of our team continues to age.  We can rebuild in two years when Sproul, Quellet, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, etc. are NHL ready and Datsyuk may or may not be leaving.  For now, trade Tatar, Nyquist, or both and some picks and acquire the pieces to put us over the top. 

My opinion is based on how woefully inconsistent we have been. There is not a single aspect of our game that has been completely consistent. Granted, our defense is really coming together. But, our scorers have been known to disappear and jimmy does take the occasional night off. I don't want to touch our defense and I don't See what we can do with our offense without losing someone important. Furthermore, I wouldn't use the hawks game as an indicator of our progress. The hawks were at the end of a cluster of games and absolutely dominated us in the first. They were clearly gassed during the last two periods and still managed to hold on. Furthermore, we have lost games to some pretty awful teams like the bj's.

Fwiw, I should have left out the part about us being more than a key piece or two away. Such an addition would make a huge difference. But I don't see how we can gain something without losing something similar.

One more thing, It would take a lot for me to give up Tatar. With Gus I'm only a little less hesitant.

Edited by The Greek, 05 March 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[jollymania]

I did, and I threw up in my mouth a little.  Anyone who thinks we'll be just fine when our injury list clears out is living in La-La Land.  Filpulla isn't producing, Bert's not going to do much coming off of a major back injury, Franzen is useless, Sammy's constantly hurt, Cleary just sucks, Abby sucks in a 2nd-line role, and Tatar and Andersson are making the most of their time but not getting enough of it.  This team has a REAL need at forward.  We have no consistent scorer.  Not one.  We haven't since Hossa left.  No one that has proved they can score goals night-in and night-out.  Brunner has been a nice surprise, but he hasn't gotten on the scoresheet in a little while.  No one has, to be honest.  How Holland can sit there and sit on his hands when this team cannot score goals consistently is beyond me.

Helm?

[Richdg]

Right, which is that getting guys back is LIKE a deadline acquisition?  Take ANY competitive team, which we are, and add 4 top nine forwards and depth defenseman and it's impressive.  Or to put it another way, if our team was made up of the exact roster that we're putting on the ice tonight, and then on April 3rd we traded for Filppula, Helm, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and Colaiacovo, people would go nuts over how awesome Ken Holland is.  If anything, people should be mad at how obviously true his statement is, not that the logic is somehow flawed. 

Hell no! If any GM this Apil came out and boosted he picked up those names, he should be fired on the spot.

Helm?

not a scorer. 12 G is his career high IIRC.

[Z Winged Dangler]

 
We have plenty enough assets to get what we need, IMO.  Which is, a big minute stay at home d-man to play with Kronwall on the top pair, and a big(ish) winger who can chip in supplemental scoring.  For the sake of argument I'll say Blake Wheeler and Ladislav Smid.  You could also swap these guys for Nino Niederreiter, Troy Brouwer, Sam Gagne on offense, and Mark Stuart, Henrik Tallinder, Robyn Regehr, or Anton Volchenkov on defense.  And best of all, pretty much any of these guys could be had for a combination of prospects, picks, and lower level roster players.  Then you simply move our throw away guys like White, Colaiacovo, Sammy, Eaves, Kindl, Miller, Abby, Cleary, etc. for the picks you lose landing the impact players. 
 
Wheeler-Datsyuk-Flip
Brunner-Z-Franzen
 
Kronwall-Smid
Smith-Ericsson
 
To me this looks a hell of a lot better than what we're fielding right now.  Fill in the bottom six/bottom defensive pairings however you want. 


 
If you honestly think we're a better team with Cleary and Abby in the top six rather than Sammy and Bert then I'm not going to argue with you.  I still maintain that while Holland should make a move or two, the addition of those guys makes our team considerably more competitive than it is now.  And given that the point of trading is to make your team better than it is now, there's nothing misleading about Holland's comments. 

While I'd love to see Wheeler on the Wings...haha Winged Wheeler....he's a fan favorite in Winnipeg and the coaches love him. Unless Nyquist and Jurco or something of the sort came the other way i doubt the Jets even consider moving him though he'd have a badass nickname here

[Hockeytown0001]

My opinion is based on how woefully inconsistent we have been. There is not a single aspect of our game that has been completely consistent. Granted, our defense is really coming together. But, our scorers have been known to disappear and jimmy does take the occasional night off. I don't want to touch our defense and I don't See what we can do with our offense without losing someone important. Furthermore, I wouldn't use the hawks game as an indicator of our progress. The hawks were at the end of a cluster of games and absolutely dominated us in the first. They were clearly gassed during the last two periods and still managed to hold on. Furthermore, we have lost games to some pretty awful teams like the bj's.

Fwiw, I should have left out the part about us being more than a key piece or two away. Such an addition would make a huge difference. But I don't see how we can gain something without losing something similar.

One more thing, It would take a lot for me to give up Tatar. With Gus I'm only a little less hesitant.

I wouldn't trade Gus. 

[The Greek]

I wouldn't trade Gus. 

I don't want to trade either Gus or Tatar. But, If I were forced to choose, I would trade Gus. I would rather we take a real good look at both though so it doesn't bite us in the ass down the road.