Brunner downgraded to the third line!?

[Carman 387]

Franzen would need to have 20 hits per game in order for anyone to give him a break. He has been playing with hustle ever since his return.

He's not been too bad lately, I've seen him be much worse.

But he's had such a long history of laziness that it's hard to be given the break. Especially compared to players such as Zetterberg.

[Dabura 12,207]

He's not scoring.

Franzen would need to have 20 hits per game in order for anyone to give him a break. He has been playing with hustle ever since his return.

Oh wah-wah-wah.

[Guest mjtm77]

brunner is not as good as everyone thinks he is.

[Buppy 1,720]

Probably has something to do with Zetterberg actually doing other important things for the team. Franzen would be cut some slack if he exhibited 50% of the effort Zetterberg does.

I doubt that. Franzen is much better defensively, better on the boards, and harder to get off the puck than many around here would care to admit. Yet most of his critics say he's useless if he's not scoring goals.

The whole "lazy" criticism is founded mostly on the falsely perceived "streaky" criticism. All because 5 years ago, before the league figured him out and started paying attention to him, he went on a ridiculously torrid run that made people think he was better than he is, and then 3 years ago he had a ridiculously icy stretch that put him more or less permanently on a lot of people's s*** list.

However, the point of my post was not to compare Mule to Hank. I was pointing out that the post I was responding to was wrong, and the criticism there of Franzen is actually far more applicable to Zetterberg.

[Motown4013 350]

brunner is not as good as everyone thinks he is.

Here we go...

He's a rookie adjusting to a smaller ice and Detroits system. He's in a bit if a slump bt good players find a way to grind it out. YOU have no idea how good he is or can be....

[Guest Crymson]

Oh wah-wah-wah.

Are you sure you want to get into this competition?

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Except he hasn't. Since his breakout he's had one major slump. At the end of '10-11, where he went 14 games, then another 8 right after finally getting one. From March '08 to that point his longest slump was 6 (twice), and he only hit (or missed, maybe you'd say) 5 three other times. Last year he went 6 games early in the year, then 8 near the middle. Those were the only times he went more than 4. This year he went 6 (3 before his injury then 3 after).

He's not nearly as streaky as people seem to think. Some people just hate Franzen, but Brunner still has that new car smell. For Franzen, going 2 games without a goal is like Brunner going 20.

If you want someone prone to goal slumps, it's Zetterberg. This year already he's gone 11, then 9. Last year 13 then 9, plus a 6 and four differest 5s. '10-11 he went 11, 9, three more 5s. '09-10 he had a 12, a 9, three more 5s. His tendency to go cold is why he's gone from scoring 30+ to low 20s. But he's a hero so we don't care about that...

He may not be as streaky, but during his slumps, he not only doesn't score, he floats around the ice and doesn't look like he is trying...other slumping players at least pitch in other ways and are giving it 100% effort during their slumps. IF Franzine isn't scoring he isn't doing anything, so when he has slumps, he is garbage.

So basically, 60 games out of the year he is garbage...he wouldn't even score 20 goals this year if it were 80 games long....and he'd only be on a pace for about 35 points....so basically he is junk. Get rid of him.

I doubt that. Franzen is much better defensively, better on the boards, and harder to get off the puck than many around here would care to admit. Yet most of his critics say he's useless if he's not scoring goals.

The whole "lazy" criticism is founded mostly on the falsely perceived "streaky" criticism. All because 5 years ago, before the league figured him out and started paying attention to him, he went on a ridiculously torrid run that made people think he was better than he is, and then 3 years ago he had a ridiculously icy stretch that put him more or less permanently on a lot of people's s*** list.

However, the point of my post was not to compare Mule to Hank. I was pointing out that the post I was responding to was wrong, and the criticism there of Franzen is actually far more applicable to Zetterberg.

I never thought he was better than what he is....hence the reason I was on the Hossa team...

Lest you forget, 3 years ago that icy stretch only solidified the fact that choosing him over Hossa was a mistake and it fueled the fire...dump him.

[beachwing 426]

Well, what is being lost in this discussion is that finally Dan Cleary has been put back on the 3rd line!

Hell if Danny shoots and skates like he did last night he can be on 2nd line all he wants....mind you I didnt mention how he passed last night:)

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Hell if Danny shoots and skates like he did last night he can be on 2nd line all he wants....mind you I didnt mention how he passed last night:)

He played that way because he is not on the 2nd line. He is a 3rd liner, period. Last season when Babcock tried and tried to put him in the top 6, he struggled and struggled, then Babs FINALLY put him on Helm's line and he gelled and played much MUCH better. I still do not want him re-signed, but as long as he stays on the 3rd line, I have no complaints about him. Well, not as many at least.

Edited March 17, 2013 by LeftWinger

[Guest Crymson]

Hell if Danny shoots and skates like he did last night he can be on 2nd line all he wants....mind you I didnt mention how he passed last night:)

The line of Cleary, Abdelkader, and Andersson was very good. They are all big, physical players.

[Carman 387]

I doubt that. Franzen is much better defensively, better on the boards, and harder to get off the puck than many around here would care to admit. Yet most of his critics say he's useless if he's not scoring goals.

The whole "lazy" criticism is founded mostly on the falsely perceived "streaky" criticism. All because 5 years ago, before the league figured him out and started paying attention to him, he went on a ridiculously torrid run that made people think he was better than he is, and then 3 years ago he had a ridiculously icy stretch that put him more or less permanently on a lot of people's s*** list.

However, the point of my post was not to compare Mule to Hank. I was pointing out that the post I was responding to was wrong, and the criticism there of Franzen is actually far more applicable to Zetterberg.

The whole lazy criticism is founded on his own coach saying that he doesn't bring his best game to the ice each and every night.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/11/red_wings_mike_babcock_wants_j.html

How can anyone argue this? Now I disagree with the whole get rid of Franzen at whatever cost crowd. I think he's a valuable member of the team, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't expect more effort from him. I try to be fair with every player, but Franzen is a player that could be so much better, and it's frustrating to watch him some nights.

[MDCard 48]

I think Babs has made some positive moves since Filp came back. Filp and Z on the same line. Moving Cleary down to the 3rd line. There seemed to be more life to our offense since Filp came back...and i am completely against this idea of trading Filp...he is one of our highest skill guys.

On Brunner, i agree with moving him down for awhile. He has been pretty absent the past 8 games...soft on the puck and hesitant to pull the trigger. He may do better matched up against lesser forwards. Had a good assist last night on Cleary's goal.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Brunner's last two games haven't been great. Hopefully he can reset during the three day rest period and come out strong. He has been learning defensively and he has been better in the corners, but he needs to figure out how to combine the defensive game with his offensive game.

The line of Cleary, Abdelkader, and Andersson was very good. They are all big, physical players.

IMO Andersson needs to step up his physical play. Currently, he is averaging about the same amount of hits/game as Flip. If he can add some tenacity to his game, he should be able to replace Emmerton next season. Right now, I'm not sure where he fits with Helm as the 3C, and the fourth line focusing on checking.

[Buppy 1,720]

The whole lazy criticism is founded on his own coach saying that he doesn't bring his best game to the ice each and every night.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/11/red_wings_mike_babcock_wants_j.html

How can anyone argue this? Now I disagree with the whole get rid of Franzen at whatever cost crowd. I think he's a valuable member of the team, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't expect more effort from him. I try to be fair with every player, but Franzen is a player that could be so much better, and it's frustrating to watch him some nights.

And look at the timing of that article. Early last year, when the horrible slump to end the previous season was still somewhat fresh. Lost 6 in a row, in which Franzen didn't score, then he has back to back 3 point games with a hat trick.

Babcock basically said, "he's a good player who I think could be great", and a whole host of people here read it as, "lazy and sucks". There's a world of difference between expecting more effort and the criticism levied at Franzen. He's stuck in this trap where if he has a bad game the reaction is, "See how terrible he is!", and if he has a good game it's, "See how good he can be! That's why he's so terrible!". Fact is, like every player, he has good games, bad games, and games in between. But with Franzen, the only reason some people will even contemplate to explain the difference is his effort.

Maybe you keep your criticism of his play at a more reasonable level. Then you wouldn't be one of those critics I'm talking about. But when I corrected another poster's gross exaggeration of his tendency to slump, you did feel compelled to post your opinion of his laziness, so...

[Carman 387]

And look at the timing of that article. Early last year, when the horrible slump to end the previous season was still somewhat fresh. Lost 6 in a row, in which Franzen didn't score, then he has back to back 3 point games with a hat trick.

Babcock basically said, "he's a good player who I think could be great", and a whole host of people here read it as, "lazy and sucks". There's a world of difference between expecting more effort and the criticism levied at Franzen. He's stuck in this trap where if he has a bad game the reaction is, "See how terrible he is!", and if he has a good game it's, "See how good he can be! That's why he's so terrible!". Fact is, like every player, he has good games, bad games, and games in between. But with Franzen, the only reason some people will even contemplate to explain the difference is his effort.

Maybe you keep your criticism of his play at a more reasonable level. Then you wouldn't be one of those critics I'm talking about. But when I corrected another poster's gross exaggeration of his tendency to slump, you did feel compelled to post your opinion of his laziness, so...

Difference is bad games for Franzen is effort based, and that to me is very hard to comprehend. I don't mind if he goes into slumps, I do mind when he isn't trying to make a difference in other ways of the game. He can be more physical, he can be better in the corners, he can drop the gloves for teammates, but he doesn't do it all the time. I watch more than just score sheets, and that's why I'm disappointed in Franzen, and not Brunner, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Abdelkader who ever else goes on a slump, because you don't hear Babcock calling them out on not coming to the rink every night.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Difference is bad games for Franzen is effort based, and that to me is very hard to comprehend. I don't mind if he goes into slumps, I do mind when he isn't trying to make a difference in other ways of the game. He can be more physical, he can be better in the corners, he can drop the gloves for teammates, but he doesn't do it all the time. I watch more than just score sheets, and that's why I'm disappointed in Franzen, and not Brunner, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Abdelkader who ever else goes on a slump, because you don't hear Babcock calling them out on not coming to the rink every night.

Like I stated earlier, when other players slump in scoring, they still bring their 100% effort and contribute in other ways...Zetterberg and Datsyuk setting up goals, shutting down opposing teams top lines and Abby being what he is a grinder and drawing penalties and throwing his body around...when Franzine slumps, he brings nothing else to the ice....especially effort.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Franzena problem is he is a good player but has no effort. Whether he scores or not he is a defensive liability, doesn't use his size, and flat out just doesn't try. He very rarely actually earns a goal from his hard work. He benefits from the other guys hard work. The difference between Brunner and franzen is Brunner tries. Brunner is working hard and no he isn't as skilled as franzen. But I'll take Brunner over him all day cause he has heart. Franzen flat out doesn't and no matter what side of the fence you're on you can't legitimately say otherwise.

[Ally 448]

By page 3 all threads lead to Franzen.

[Guest DeGraa55]

By page 3 all threads lead to Franzen.

Cause you either love him so much you want to be with him. Or you dislike him(his effort) so much you want to give him up for a used jock strap.

He has earned his whipping boy status more so than anyone on this team.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Amen!

...and I was told that I was the one always bringing him up! I do it a lot, I admit, but its nice to see that I am certainly not the only one to turn threads into Franzine threads!

Here is the final word on my opinion, Brunner on the 3rd line is better than Cleary or Franzine in the top 6...dump Franzine now.

Edited March 18, 2013 by LeftWinger

[AusWing40 61]

I swear after the cleary goal he was back on the first line with z and flip, so I don't think it was a big deal

[Guest DeGraa55]

I swear after the cleary goal he was back on the first line with z and flip, so I don't think it was a big deal

Still want him with Dats!!!!!

[AusWing40 61]

Still want him with Dats!!!!!

I'd like to see it too, just meant I think him playing a few minutes on the third line is not a permanent thing.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Like I stated earlier, when other players slump in scoring, they still bring their 100% effort and contribute in other ways...Zetterberg and Datsyuk setting up goals, shutting down opposing teams top lines and Abby being what he is a grinder and drawing penalties and throwing his body around...when Franzine slumps, he brings nothing else to the ice....especially effort.

You always know where he's been on the ice though. You ever see the green slime that slugs leave when they travel to and fro?

By page 3 all threads lead to Franzen.

By the 3rd you expect him to float in and and give us something to talk about. Page 3/Period 3...same dif.

Realistically, Brunner wouldn't be a bad idea on the 3rd line for a bit....when Helm returns and you can have both of them tearing around the ice together. Brunner may be able to get better open ice shots when the opposition gets mesmorized by Helm's speed.

[Tim Cheveldae's Ghost 9]

Brunner's early season numbers are easily attributed to playing during the lockout, as were Hank's. No surprise they've cooled off at the same time as the rest of the league has finally caught up speed and conditioning wise. I think Brunner on the 3rd line will do him well, he'll see lesser defensive pairings and will probably get more space to do things. I happen to think Babcock's line shuffling Saturday worked wonders, the team seemed to feed off it. Not really worried about him at all, he's an everyday player who is experiencing his first dose of NHL reality. He'll get back to scoring soon.