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Wings Make Offer to Danny D!

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You can look at EVERY SINGLE team in the league and say their GM could do better.

Perfection is unattainable as a GM in any professional sport even more so when you are constrained by a salary cap.

Could Holland do better...absolutely,

but so could every other GM and when you compare their bodies of work I'll take Holland over any GM in the league...Possibly any GM in NHL history. A lot of that has to do with the management team surrounding him (Nill, Develanno both deserve a large share of the credit as does Hakan Andersson) but since Holland gets the blame for things that aren't his fault like guys not signing with us, he gets the credit for things that may not be entirely his work like stocking our prospect pool to its deepest point maybe ever

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Dunno how legit this guy is but:

According to a source from WMU, it is a strong possibility UFA D Danny DeKeyser will sign with the Detroit Red Wings as early as tomorrow.

If true... Heck Yeah! Definitely need a better source, but it is still intriguing.

Edited by HockeytownRules19

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Dunno how legit this guy is but:

According to a source from WMU, it is a strong possibility UFA D Danny DeKeyser will sign with the Detroit Red Wings as early as tomorrow.

If true... Heck Yeah! Definitely need a better source, but it is still intriguing.

yesssss!!!! tomorrow will either be awful or amazing depending on his decision.

when i stated earlier that i wish we had stevie instead of holland, i wasnt bashing holland or anything. i know hes doing all he can to get guys like danny and suter. i just love stevie. i like holland. i love stevie.

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This feels all too familiar of the Suter situation though. God, I still remember those tweets the night before saying Suter to Detroit! We were all ready and then BAM. Man, whoever called it Suteritis, they hit the nail on the head.

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This feels all too familiar of the Suter situation though. God, I still remember those tweets the night before saying Suter to Detroit! We were all ready and then BAM. Man, whoever called it Suteritis, they hit the nail on the head.

i remember people were tracking flights from Detroit to Suter's hometown on flight aware or some other site that tracks flights lol

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yesssss!!!! tomorrow will either be awful or amazing depending on his decision.

when i stated earlier that i wish we had stevie instead of holland, i wasnt bashing holland or anything. i know hes doing all he can to get guys like danny and suter. i just love stevie. i like holland. i love stevie.

I love Stevie too, but as a player. As a GM he's been average or below average. If Tampa doesn't rebound next year he'll probably be looking for work.

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i think some of you are over thinking it. lashoff came out of nowhere and is a solid defender for us. dekeyser can probably do the same. i dont care if hes not a schultz jones trouba. i just hope he can play good hockey for us.

OK,

bottom line,

Is he really that good?

If most think so, hope the Wings sign him & let the chips fall where they may.

And his favorite team is the Red Wings.

Let's hope so!

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I think you guys are SEVERELY over-estimating how big of an impact being a lifelong fan will have on his decision. There is a reason he is fielding offers from other teams. Ultimately, he will do what is best for his career. If that's Detroit then I'm sure we'll here in all of the interviews about how it was his dream, but keep in mind, if this was strictly about being a childhood fan, he would already be on this team.

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I think you guys are SEVERELY over-estimating how big of an impact being a lifelong fan will have on his decision. There is a reason he is fielding offers from other teams. Ultimately, he will do what is best for his career. If that's Detroit then I'm sure we'll here in all of the interviews about how it was his dream, but keep in mind, if this was strictly about being a childhood fan, he would already be on this team.

He has an agent for a reason, and that's to make him look. As an agent, you are not going to allow your client to simply "slap" the other 29 franchises and not even give them a chance to field offers to your client. It makes you, and your client look like complete assholes. If he *DID* sign with Detroit, and god forbid things went south, he would NOT want that stain on his resume that he didn't even give anyone the chance to sway him. I'm not sure what spot Detroit went, but he started fielding offers yesterday and Detroit came today, meaning, they could've been one of the last offers fielded. "Hey Danny, Listen, you can't simply sign with Detroit, we need to do this the right way and field offers from all franchises. Hey, let me tell you this, we'll field offers from the other teams and then Detroit will be the last to field an offer. That way, you can compare their contract and promises to the others and make a sound decision on your future. How's that sound, kiddo?!"

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I think you guys are SEVERELY over-estimating how big of an impact being a lifelong fan will have on his decision. There is a reason he is fielding offers from other teams. Ultimately, he will do what is best for his career. If that's Detroit then I'm sure we'll here in all of the interviews about how it was his dream, but keep in mind, if this was strictly about being a childhood fan, he would already be on this team.

No agent would have allowed him to sign without hearing the other offers. I agree that just because he grew up a Wings fan doesn't make his signing with them a forgone conclusion but it will play a large factor.

He'll do whats best for his career but considering he met with Detroit first, and then met with them again after everyone else it seems to me his agent is just using the competition to get as much (promise wise) out management as he can.

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Since we were really feeling the cap when we were still paying Zetterberg around $2.5 million/season?

....

But all in all, the "you could do better" thing hangs over the last four years like a cloudy sky on the verge of rain.

That is a ridiculous standard, and if you were to apply it to any other GM in the history of any sport you're not going to find even one you think is adequate.

In the span of a few seasons we lost Yzerman, Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Fischer, Larionov, Hasek, among others, plus maybe the best coach of all time. Chelios went from a Norris candidate to depth player, Draper and Maltby from invaluable role-players to guys filling out the roster. We'd lost in the first round, second round, and first round. We had a lot of good prospects and could afford to lose some. Plus we made the transition to the cap era.

Holland made some moves, some were decent, some not so much. We signed some cast-offs that no one else wanted, brought up some young guys, signed one big UFA. It worked and we won a Cup. It wasn't luck that we had a bunch of cheap guys. It's what you have to do in the cap era. Then we had to start paying guys and trying to fill the rest of the roster with bargains. Some of those guys were decent, some not so much.

It's just not reasonable to expect that we should have had a replacement for Lidstrom before he left. The only way to get that is to get lucky, either with a prospect or someone else's cast off. If you want someone already proven, you would have had to give up a lot to get them, and we couldn't have fit them under the cap. We would have had to make the team worse in previous years. Maybe in hindsight you can say they should have, because we haven't done much in the playoffs anyway, but really you all would have just been bitching about mismanagement back then.

Some people are completely backward in thinking that the biggest needs, the biggest losses, should be the easiest to fill. Fact is, those holes have the fewest available options and the least margin for error. That's why almost no one, in any sport, in any era in history, has much success filling them without a hitch.

Nothing Holland could have done would have been better than landing Suter and Parise (particularly since we wouldn't have had to give up anything), and he put us in position to make a strong play for both of them. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. But we're still in a good position to add more, and we still have a well stocked prospect pool. Maybe, probably even, things will get worse before they get better. That's the nature of the beast. We need stars and those almost always come through the draft. Once we have our next generation of stars, then will come the time to start making trades and looking for a good UFA or two to put us over the top. Hopefully at that time, some of the young prospects we have now will emerge to fill some roles at bargain prices.

Sure, we could make a move or two now and it might work out. Or not. Look at the Rangers, Philly, San Jose... Maybe Holland could have done better. But who actually has?

Pittsburgh? Cup winner, last three years lost in the 2nd, 1st, and 1st round. Found some nice fits at forwards, including one absolute steal of a trade, wrecked their defense. Looking good this year, maybe they'll go somewhere, maybe not. Their best players can't stay healthy, probably going to have cap troubles again in a couple years.

Chicago? Cup winner, sat watching the TV hoping for Dallas to lose to put them in the playoffs the following year. Two first round losses. Looking good this year... Likely cap trouble again next year.

Boston? Cup winner, lost in the first round last year. Looking good... maybe some cap trouble next year.

LA? Cup winner, had to fight down to the wire to make the playoffs, likely the same this year. About $15M to fill almost half their roster next year...

Anaheim? Doing great this year after plenty of struggles since their Cup win. Big commitments to their stars likely to create some cap issues down the road...

Anyone else...

Pretty much all that separates us from any of them is they have young stars while ours are aging. Most of them were irrelevent not long ago, and will likely end up back there before too long. Come back when their stars are aging and see how much better they do than Holland. I bet none of them do half so well.

What Holland has already done proves that he's a great GM. He's had some luck, and a great staff to work with, but he's still been great. No matter how successfully we make it through our current transition or the next.

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That is a ridiculous standard, and if you were to apply it to any other GM in the history of any sport you're not going to find even one you think is adequate.

In the span of a few seasons we lost Yzerman, Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Fischer, Larionov, Hasek, among others, plus maybe the best coach of all time. Chelios went from a Norris candidate to depth player, Draper and Maltby from invaluable role-players to guys filling out the roster. We'd lost in the first round, second round, and first round. We had a lot of good prospects and could afford to lose some. Plus we made the transition to the cap era.

Holland made some moves, some were decent, some not so much. We signed some cast-offs that no one else wanted, brought up some young guys, signed one big UFA. It worked and we won a Cup. It wasn't luck that we had a bunch of cheap guys. It's what you have to do in the cap era. Then we had to start paying guys and trying to fill the rest of the roster with bargains. Some of those guys were decent, some not so much.

It's just not reasonable to expect that we should have had a replacement for Lidstrom before he left. The only way to get that is to get lucky, either with a prospect or someone else's cast off. If you want someone already proven, you would have had to give up a lot to get them, and we couldn't have fit them under the cap. We would have had to make the team worse in previous years. Maybe in hindsight you can say they should have, because we haven't done much in the playoffs anyway, but really you all would have just been bitching about mismanagement back then.

Some people are completely backward in thinking that the biggest needs, the biggest losses, should be the easiest to fill. Fact is, those holes have the fewest available options and the least margin for error. That's why almost no one, in any sport, in any era in history, has much success filling them without a hitch.

Nothing Holland could have done would have been better than landing Suter and Parise (particularly since we wouldn't have had to give up anything), and he put us in position to make a strong play for both of them. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. But we're still in a good position to add more, and we still have a well stocked prospect pool. Maybe, probably even, things will get worse before they get better. That's the nature of the beast. We need stars and those almost always come through the draft. Once we have our next generation of stars, then will come the time to start making trades and looking for a good UFA or two to put us over the top. Hopefully at that time, some of the young prospects we have now will emerge to fill some roles at bargain prices.

Sure, we could make a move or two now and it might work out. Or not. Look at the Rangers, Philly, San Jose... Maybe Holland could have done better. But who actually has?

Pittsburgh? Cup winner, last three years lost in the 2nd, 1st, and 1st round. Found some nice fits at forwards, including one absolute steal of a trade, wrecked their defense. Looking good this year, maybe they'll go somewhere, maybe not. Their best players can't stay healthy, probably going to have cap troubles again in a couple years.

Chicago? Cup winner, sat watching the TV hoping for Dallas to lose to put them in the playoffs the following year. Two first round losses. Looking good this year... Likely cap trouble again next year.

Boston? Cup winner, lost in the first round last year. Looking good... maybe some cap trouble next year.

LA? Cup winner, had to fight down to the wire to make the playoffs, likely the same this year. About $15M to fill almost half their roster next year...

Anaheim? Doing great this year after plenty of struggles since their Cup win. Big commitments to their stars likely to create some cap issues down the road...

Anyone else...

Pretty much all that separates us from any of them is they have young stars while ours are aging. Most of them were irrelevent not long ago, and will likely end up back there before too long. Come back when their stars are aging and see how much better they do than Holland. I bet none of them do half so well.

What Holland has already done proves that he's a great GM. He's had some luck, and a great staff to work with, but he's still been great. No matter how successfully we make it through our current transition or the next.

I don't buy the "making the team worse" argument, nor the cap argument. First of all, especially last year, when all was said and done, we still had $4.5 million in cap space. But even in years before last, guys that likely would've been moved to make a trade happen would have balanced out most of the cap issues. And while I don't think you could say that making a trade that ships out talent for talent would make the team better immediately, I don't think it'd make them so much worse either. It probably would have been even then, with a stronger defense but somewhat weaker offense. But it'd make the blow of losing your top three defensemen over the course of one year much easier to swallow. Again, I'm not talking about just replacing Lidstrom, but also Rafalski and Stuart. Holland didn't even find a way to bring in a Stuart-level guy. I don't wholly disagree with some of what you're saying, and I'm not trying to suggest that perfection is the only option, but I absolutely am saying that if Holland was a truly great cap-era GM, I don't think he would've had the number and the magnitude of gaffs that he's had since really running up against the cap crunch. And don't take it from me, take it from him! He blatantly admitted that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened in the off-season in the summer of 2009. It's been much of the same drill each off-season since then, only getting worse in some ways as the seasons go by.

And to be clear, I'm fine with having a year or two or even more of struggle to get things right. If we have to field a weaker team in order to sign better guys for awhile as we sort out this transition and evolve, so be it. What bothers me most about Holland's approach is that he's seemed content to change as little as possible because the team with the core of Dats, Z and Lidstrom was generally going to be good enough to at least make the playoffs. But now Lidstrom's gone, and while the core is still strong, it hardly makes the team infallible. If heaven forbid we do lose Datsyuk in 15 months, and three months later we start the season having not addressed yet another hole in any meaningful way, will it still be excusable?

Pittsburgh landed Iginla tonight. Doesn't guarantee them anything, but we weren't even on Iginla's list according to most. No matter what you think of the deal or the other teams or how it might play out, that we weren't even a real part of the conversation is very telling of the status of our team. And again, I'd be fine with that status if it actually felt like we were building to something. But it doesn't, at all. We're just getting old and tired. As opposed to paying dues, we're just eeking by.

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Since we were really feeling the cap when we were still paying Zetterberg around $2.5 million/season? Or when we had one Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for around a million (who won us our last Cup) and another Stanley Cup winning goalie playing for $2 million and bonuses? Or when Franzen was making less than a million and actually producing? Or when Flip was doing as much as he does now for less than a million? Or when we still had Lidstrom, money be damned?

We didn't have to start putting together a real cap team until 2009-2010. We were so stocked before the cap because of Mr. I's wallet that we didn't have to rush any talent, so by the time we start using some of our prospects, we had solid NHLers who were contributing far more than one would expect from typical guys making the kind of money they were. Once Holland had to start making cap decisions and signing our younger guys to real NHL deals, he has struggled in my opinion. And again, I'm not saying he utterly and completely failed, but I don't think he was great and I absolutely don't think he put the best team on the ice that he could. Whether we make the playoffs or not, if you can look at the situation and say, "you could do better," than something isn't right.

.

Right, I'm gunna stop you right there tiger, because you essentially contradicted yourself from one paragraph to the next. We had a great team because of all the cheap players we had under the cap (ignoring the fact that Holland drafted/traded/signed all those players)? But apparantly that doesn't count as a cap team? Even though that has precisely proved to be the formula for winning cups in the cap world ie good young players (usually 1st rounders and lottery picks, except for the team that Holland built ;) ) on ELCs or cheap 2nd contracts, with with enough cap space left over to fill the roster with quality vets.

Now he's trying to do something unprecedented in the cap world - retool on the fly, when 2 or 3 years of major suckage is the more proven way to rebuild your team.

Edited by Nev

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I don't buy the "making the team worse" argument, nor the cap argument. First of all, especially last year, when all was said and done, we still had $4.5 million in cap space. But even in years before last, guys that likely would've been moved to make a trade happen would have balanced out most of the cap issues. And while I don't think you could say that making a trade that ships out talent for talent would make the team better immediately, I don't think it'd make them so much worse either. It probably would have been even then, with a stronger defense but somewhat weaker offense. But it'd make the blow of losing your top three defensemen over the course of one year much easier to swallow. Again, I'm not talking about just replacing Lidstrom, but also Rafalski and Stuart. Holland didn't even find a way to bring in a Stuart-level guy. I don't wholly disagree with some of what you're saying, and I'm not trying to suggest that perfection is the only option, but I absolutely am saying that if Holland was a truly great cap-era GM, I don't think he would've had the number and the magnitude of gaffs that he's had since really running up against the cap crunch. And don't take it from me, take it from him! He blatantly admitted that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened in the off-season in the summer of 2009. It's been much of the same drill each off-season since then, only getting worse in some ways as the seasons go by.

And to be clear, I'm fine with having a year or two or even more of struggle to get things right. If we have to field a weaker team in order to sign better guys for awhile as we sort out this transition and evolve, so be it. What bothers me most about Holland's approach is that he's seemed content to change as little as possible because the team with the core of Dats, Z and Lidstrom was generally going to be good enough to at least make the playoffs. But now Lidstrom's gone, and while the core is still strong, it hardly makes the team infallible. If heaven forbid we do lose Datsyuk in 15 months, and three months later we start the season having not addressed yet another hole in any meaningful way, will it still be excusable?

Pittsburgh landed Iginla tonight. Doesn't guarantee them anything, but we weren't even on Iginla's list according to most. No matter what you think of the deal or the other teams or how it might play out, that we weren't even a real part of the conversation is very telling of the status of our team. And again, I'd be fine with that status if it actually felt like we were building to something. But it doesn't, at all. We're just getting old and tired. As opposed to paying dues, we're just eeking by.

In the new cap era, the playoffs are not guaranteed to any team. It will come down less to money and more to chemistry. I too worry about this team when Dats and Z are gone, as any team should be worried when they lose their horses. If Chicago lost Toews and Kane, they would be screwed. If Pittsburgh lost Malkin and Crosby, they would also be screwed. The premier players are just that, premier players.

As for Iginla, I am glad we didn't get him as a rental. We have given up enough picks in the last 20 years, and as has been said before, you have to build up your team through the draft now. If there is anything the Wings have been good with, it is has been getting good deals with late round picks.

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The Wings can only build depth through the draft. We don't draft high enough to get superstars reliably, so we still need to trade for our team to have any bite to it.

Exactly the reason, why some people (like me) would love to see this team being sellers at the tradedeadline.

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Andrew Walker @fan960walker 6m

Breaking: #Flames GM Jay Feaster along with Hartley -enroute today to meet with highly sought after NCAA free agent Dan Dekeyser (West Mich)

I don't think Danny is stupid enough to sign with Calgary after what just happened lol

There are only two competitors which I really "fear" the Bolts because of Stevie Y and of course the Predators, having the chance to learn from Weber shouldn't be underestimated although I hate this guy.

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I don't buy the "making the team worse" argument, nor the cap argument. First of all, especially last year, when all was said and done, we still had $4.5 million in cap space. But even in years before last, guys that likely would've been moved to make a trade happen would have balanced out most of the cap issues. And while I don't think you could say that making a trade that ships out talent for talent would make the team better immediately, I don't think it'd make them so much worse either. It probably would have been even then, with a stronger defense but somewhat weaker offense. But it'd make the blow of losing your top three defensemen over the course of one year much easier to swallow. Again, I'm not talking about just replacing Lidstrom, but also Rafalski and Stuart. Holland didn't even find a way to bring in a Stuart-level guy. I don't wholly disagree with some of what you're saying, and I'm not trying to suggest that perfection is the only option, but I absolutely am saying that if Holland was a truly great cap-era GM, I don't think he would've had the number and the magnitude of gaffs that he's had since really running up against the cap crunch. And don't take it from me, take it from him! He blatantly admitted that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened in the off-season in the summer of 2009. It's been much of the same drill each off-season since then, only getting worse in some ways as the seasons go by.

And to be clear, I'm fine with having a year or two or even more of struggle to get things right. If we have to field a weaker team in order to sign better guys for awhile as we sort out this transition and evolve, so be it. What bothers me most about Holland's approach is that he's seemed content to change as little as possible because the team with the core of Dats, Z and Lidstrom was generally going to be good enough to at least make the playoffs. But now Lidstrom's gone, and while the core is still strong, it hardly makes the team infallible. If heaven forbid we do lose Datsyuk in 15 months, and three months later we start the season having not addressed yet another hole in any meaningful way, will it still be excusable?

Pittsburgh landed Iginla tonight. Doesn't guarantee them anything, but we weren't even on Iginla's list according to most. No matter what you think of the deal or the other teams or how it might play out, that we weren't even a real part of the conversation is very telling of the status of our team. And again, I'd be fine with that status if it actually felt like we were building to something. But it doesn't, at all. We're just getting old and tired. As opposed to paying dues, we're just eeking by.

You're very obviously nowhere close to "fine" with struggling.

Being a weaker team is typically how you land those better players. Getting superstars to build around typically requires being very bad for a time. It's not that Holland is content or doesn't want to change anything. It's that you can't spin straw into gold. He could spin some straw into some different straw, and maybe that would make you happy as it would at least be something to talk about, but it wouldn't make any real difference.

Yes, when Rafalski retired we got some cap space, after having none for two years. In hindsight, Holland might have given up a pick for a chance to talk to Wisniewski or Ehrhoff. Would either really make us any better? Make the future any brighter? Knowing he wouldn't get Suter, he probably goes harder after other options. Would Wideman or Carle really make that much difference?

To build, you need something to build on. The struggles we're having now and will likely have in the near future is how we'll find that foundation.

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Exactly the reason, why some people (like me) would love to see this team being sellers at the tradedeadline.

Frank, you and I have had our differences, but I agree with you.

The Wings playoff streak is nice, but I would rather see the Wings really compete every few years than just make the playoffs and die in the first or second round every year. The problem is that Wings fans as a whole would hate to see them tank for 2-3 years just to rebuild.

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I imagine Pittsburgh might be a destination for him. They're making big splashes to bolster their offense, and they need more defensive depth, don't they? Playing with Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Iginla for years might be a stronger draw than just Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

And on the note about off-season trades, last year we can't really blame Holland. There just wasn't much to pick from. But he has been too hesitant to trade pieces. Our prospects are all solid and will be great solid players, but he should have been more aggressive pursuing options for top-end talent. We talk about how it's so unlikely that big players move these days, but the fact is, they do. Not as much as they used to, but they do get moved.

In the old days Holland would find these out of nowhere trades. Here's what happened:

In 2010, we had a good team, but the hockey gods destroyed our team health and we couldn't do anything. So Holland figured: We didn't get to see our team in action, let's give them another chance. Fair enough.

In 2011, we were decimated by injuries to key players once more, and maybe he still wanted to get healthy and give them a shot.

But sometime between early 2012 and 2013, it's like he stopped trying. We can't use the "we like our team when they get healthy" as an excuse anymore, I don't think. He brought in Quincey as a desperation move, but he wouldn't have been forced to do that had be moved earlier for a defenseman. Complacency set in among the players, and Holland settled into a "wait and see" approach which doesn't satisfy anyone. That is the history of the Wings since 2010 and it's frustrating. Losing in '99, '00 and '01 pushed him into high gear to win the Cup. Losing in '09, '10, '11, and '12 doesn't seem to have lit a fire under him. And it's not the cap. He's good enough at maneuvering and finding talent. He doesn't need to go for the obvious choices, but I find it hard to believe no one wanted to trade with us for four years, except for Quincey.

We can talk about how people overpay for players, but the reality is if you need that player, you pay whatever you need to. He never seriously tried to repair the defense since Rafalski left, and Smith was still years away and Kindl was underperforming. I'm not a Holland basher, and I have faith in him, but fans frustrations aren't entirely unfounded.

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