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Mr Holland.....


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#81 Crymson

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 12:52 AM

And hossa was playing with a bum shoulder that required surgery. But that's not important because it doesn't fit your argument.

 

Do you really want to open that box? Because I'll be happy to start pointing out like sections of your own arguments.

 

But hey, if we want to look into this, Franzen was playing with groin tears and had 12 goals and 23 points. And Hossa played on an absolutely stacked Blackhawks team in the 2010 playoffs and mustered a whopping three goals in 22 games. Franzen had twice as many goals and more points in just over half that number of games. How does that fit your argument?



#82 darkmanx

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:17 AM

Do you really want to open that box? Because I'll be happy to start pointing out like sections of your own arguments.

 

But hey, if we want to look into this, Franzen was playing with groin tears and had 12 goals and 23 points. And Hossa played on an absolutely stacked Blackhawks team in the 2010 playoffs and mustered a whopping three goals in 22 games. Franzen had twice as many goals and more points in just over half that number of games. How does that fit your argument?

 

The fact that you are trying to justify that Franzen is somehow better than Hossa makes me wonder if you just check box scores or if you watch the actual games. Franzen scored a whopping 3 more goals than Hossa in 2010, and has 4 points since 2010 in 13GP in the playoffs, Hossa has 8 points in 10GP.

 

No matter which way you slice it, Hossa is just better than Franzen.



#83 SaCkaveli20

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:45 AM

You guys can count me in either the 30 , or .1% that wanted to keep Hossa. There's no comparison whatsoever. Marian is one of the best two way players in the league.


As for our first rounder this year, I'm only for trading it if it lands us Gaborik.

#84 Dave

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

The fact that you are trying to justify that Franzen is somehow better than Hossa makes me wonder if you just check box scores or if you watch the actual games. Franzen scored a whopping 3 more goals than Hossa in 2010, and has 4 points since 2010 in 13GP in the playoffs, Hossa has 8 points in 10GP.

 

No matter which way you slice it, Hossa is just better than Franzen.

 

 

FFS that was 4 years ago, why is this still being brought up? The fact of the matter is that Franzen signed first. Also, Franzen's 2008/2009 playoff performances are greater than anything Hossa has done in his career. At the time it was an absolute no brainer to sign Franzen.



#85 Dabura

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:06 AM

Franzen is bigger than Hossa, and the argument could be made that he has better hands. Beyond thatt, Hossa is far better, far more valuable. He's kind of the anti-Franzen, really; he busts his ass on every shift, he's the picture of consistency, and he's probably one of the best two-way players in the league.

 

We need more Hossas, fewer Franzens.

 

"ZOMG! BUT HE SCORES 30 GOALS. HE'S OUR GO-TO-GUY."

 

BY that logic, everyone should flip the f*** out when we lose a "high-end" piece to injury or laziness. Because, ZOMG!, THERE IS NO REPLACING THOSE POINTS, MINUTES. THERE'S 30 GOALS WE WON'T BE ABLE TO SCORE. f***!!!

 

As for the actual topic at hand...I've got some thoughts. I'll try 'n' post 'em later, when I've got more time....


Don't Toews me, bro!


#86 Crymson

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:30 AM

The fact that you are trying to justify that Franzen is somehow better than Hossa makes me wonder if you just check box scores or if you watch the actual games. Franzen scored a whopping 3 more goals than Hossa in 2010, and has 4 points since 2010 in 13GP in the playoffs, Hossa has 8 points in 10GP.

 

No matter which way you slice it, Hossa is just better than Franzen.

 

I have no doubt that Hossa is a better player than Franzen. What I do take exception to are the following: 1) The idea that Holland should have, through some apparent arcane arts, foreseen that Hossa would be more valuable to the franchise than Franzen; and 2) the idea that Hossa is a god and Franzen is worthless.

 

For the record, comparing Franzen to Hossa in 2010 doesn't help your point. Franzen scored twice as many goals in ten less games.

 

 

Franzen is bigger than Hossa, and the argument could be made that he has better hands. Beyond thatt, Hossa is far better, far more valuable. He's kind of the anti-Franzen, really; he busts his ass on every shift, he's the picture of consistency, and he's probably one of the best two-way players in the league.

 

Your "picture of consistency" had Blackhawks whining for his first two seasons about how streaky he was.


Edited by Crymson, 01 April 2013 - 07:31 AM.


#87 kylee

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:36 AM

I would absolutely love to land Gaborik but there's no telling what they would need to let him go

#88 Nightfall

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:38 AM

Wow, more Franzen vrs Hossa discussion.  Look at this thread's comments.

 

http://www.mlive.com..._to_choose.html

 

Seems that many people like to make a decision in hindsight.  Franzen was a dominant power forward when he signed his contract.


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#89 kylee

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

Wow and NYR don't have a first round pick this year....hmm

#90 Nightfall

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:42 AM

To close the Franzen and Hossa complaining party.....

http://www.freep.com...a-johan-franzen

 

I agree with that article.


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#91 Carman

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:53 AM

FFS that was 4 years ago, why is this still being brought up? The fact of the matter is that Franzen signed first. Also, Franzen's 2008/2009 playoff performances are greater than anything Hossa has done in his career. At the time it was an absolute no brainer to sign Franzen.

 

No it really wasn't. I know I for one that really wanted to sign them Hossa, but instead we signed Hossa then Bertuzzi, and Wlliams, With the left over cap. It was a tough choice, and who knew that Rafalski would have retired so soon, but

 

I'm not holding Holland to the fire, it was understandable why you would want to keep our cheaper, self developed, playoff beast over Hossa. But in the end it was the wrong choice to not bring back Hossa, as we have been missing that elite winger since. And it's really hindered us offensively in the playoffs, we have not had a solid top 6 in several years. It's always been patch-worked together.

 

 

Do you really want to open that box? Because I'll be happy to start pointing out like sections of your own arguments.

 

But hey, if we want to look into this, Franzen was playing with groin tears and had 12 goals and 23 points. And Hossa played on an absolutely stacked Blackhawks team in the 2010 playoffs and mustered a whopping three goals in 22 games. Franzen had twice as many goals and more points in just over half that number of games. How does that fit your argument?

 

Open what box? The one were you try and justify Franzen's worth over Hossa?

 

I was just clarifying that when Datsyuk and Homer's production in the playoffs came up, you immediately write them off with injuries so it was acceptable, but Hossa on the otherhand who had to miss the start of the next season because of a shoulder problem does not get that same excuse? Just find it pretty hypocritical that's all.

 

I love cherry picking playoff years to compare players, what a novel and fair concept. Why not use the full sample size of each other's careers and notice that Hossa has a .43 goals per game and .92 Points per game. over 1006 games, yet Franzen has .31 goals per game and .59 points per game in 500. I mean I think Franzen is a valuable player, but it's absolutely no contest on who is better.



Wow, more Franzen vrs Hossa discussion.  Look at this thread's comments.

 

http://www.mlive.com..._to_choose.html

 

Seems that many people like to make a decision in hindsight.  Franzen was a dominant power forward when he signed his contract.

 

Dominate playoffs, yes.

 

34 goals and 59 points is not a dominate season though. Also I find it no coincidence that Franzen's  best year came when Hossa was drawing away some of  the top pairing guys. And letting Franzen play the secondary scorer.



#92 Nightfall

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:04 AM

 

Dominate playoffs, yes.

 

34 goals and 59 points is not a dominate season though. Also I find it no coincidence that Franzen's  best year came when Hossa was drawing away some of  the top pairing guys. And letting Franzen play the secondary scorer.

 

Dominant playoffs > Dominant Regular Season

 

I would much rather have a playoff performer than someone who does well in the regular season and then takes the playoffs off.


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#93 Carman

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:08 AM

Dominant playoffs > Dominant Regular Season

 

I would much rather have a playoff performer than someone who does well in the regular season and then takes the playoffs off.

 

Same here, I'm glad we are on the same page.

 

If Hossa took playoffs off he wouldn't be 7th in active playoff scorer. Was Franzen better in the playoffs? Yeah, but it's also a much smaller sample size, and he wasn't better in 07-08. So it's not like every year franzen is a beast.


Edited by Carman, 01 April 2013 - 08:09 AM.


#94 Crymson

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:23 AM

This has become a huge waste of time. Forget that I was ever involved.


Edited by Crymson, 01 April 2013 - 08:24 AM.


#95 poel

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:25 AM

Main problem is that guys are playing too complicated and offer many giveaways instead of scoring goals. Holland has to add some snipers and trade some other guys away. Too many players in the roster, but very little quality.

 

Would like to see the following players in our roster:

 

 

- Ovetchkin (9,0)

- Bouwmeester (6,7)

- Gagner (3,2)

- Stewart (3,0)

- Palmieri (1,0)

 

= 22,9, plus I'd like to bring in Tatar and Mrazek = 24,5

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that it's possible to get all these guys if Holland offers enough. And we have much to offer or to get a rid of. These guys would give us a lot of capspace:

 

 

- Mule (4,0)

- Quincey (3,8)

- Ericsson (3,3)

- Fil (3,0)

- Sammy (3,0)

- Cola (2,5)

- Toots (1,9)

- Abby (1,8)

- Monster (1,5)

- Andy & Nyquist (1,7)

 

= 26.5

 

 

 

 

Ovechkin, Datsjuk, Stewart

Tatar, Zetterberg, Brunner

Cleary, Gagner, Palmieri

Miller, Emmerton, Eaves

 

Bouwmeester, Kindl

Kronwall, Lashoff

Smith, White

 

Howard

Mrazek

 

Scratches: DeKeyser, Bertuzzi, Helm

 

 

 

Holland need to do something, otherwise Datsjuk will leave us after this season I'm sure. To bring in his mate Ovechkin would maybe change his mind. Plus Alex will immediatly stimulate our struggling powerplay. Stewart's also a great sniper and a talented player. Same's Palmieri and they're all right handed shooters what would be an important addition for our roster. Gagner would add a lot of flexibility. He also could be used on the PK and as 2nd Center if Helm will be healthy someday.

 

Unfortunately this will never happen, but I'm sure that this roster would be better than the one we actually have. Plus the moves would create a little cap space for some important resigns.

 

But Holland has to do something. There are a lot of problems. Mule's becoming more and more lazy, Filppula shows nothing but does not want to resign. Monster is too inconsistent, Sammy is just a bad joke, Quincey, Abby and Toots earn way too much for just doin the dirty work.



#96 SaCkaveli20

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:34 AM

In what universe do we get Ovie? We don't have enough to give Washington that doesn't involve Pavel or Henrik...

#97 poel

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:39 AM

In what universe do we get Ovie? We don't have enough to give Washington that doesn't involve Pavel or Henrik...

 

Maybe. I'm not sure. I heard some rumors that they're thinking about Ovie. They maybe not reach playoffs and Ovie's struggling a little bit. He earns 9 Mio so he has to produce more.

Fil and Mule are skillful players but they're struggling, too...and don't mind the fact that we could add Quincey, if that will be not enough :lol:


Edited by poel, 01 April 2013 - 08:45 AM.


#98 MasterPavel

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:41 AM

For Kenny not wanting to trade his 1st pick this year shows that he is in retooling mode imo. Also there is very little that separates the 5th pick and 20th in talent so why would you trade it? Unless it is a one for one for a Gaborik type which won't happen.

Edited by MasterPavel, 01 April 2013 - 08:45 AM.


#99 Nightfall

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:51 AM

Same here, I'm glad we are on the same page.

 

If Hossa took playoffs off he wouldn't be 7th in active playoff scorer. Was Franzen better in the playoffs? Yeah, but it's also a much smaller sample size, and he wasn't better in 07-08. So it's not like every year franzen is a beast.

 

I guess we cannot blame Holland then for making the call that he did.


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#100 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:20 AM

unless Ovie has stated he wants a move and we all of a sudden get 23yr old Lids and Feds back on the roster, ill smoke some of that too!!!

 

honestly i would be asking around for offers for Kronwall NTC, Filppula,White, Abdelkader and Gustavsson NTC. Maybe we could package some for a

young stud up front. Unless we get a genuine first pair D then Kronner wont get any better believe me. If we did manage to get either JBo, Franson or Bogosian I would off load Kronner. Really I would do it, I believe we have better players in the pipeline. Getting one of these wouldnt make us any worse than we are now and offer longer value (ie alot younger than Kronner). 

 

Kronner, Abdelkader and Fippula packaged could get us that sniper that we badly need.

 

Andersson is a ready replacement for Abdelkader, Jarnkrock or Nyqvist will be just as good if not better than Filppula and if we pick up one of the

above D then thatll cover Kronner going.

Lets get this roster younger and bigger, the D has gotten bigger this year and have even bigger prospects down the line. The forward department needs 2/3 bigger bodies and unless we trade for them we havent got them in the minors for next year at least.


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