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Stars trade Jaromir Jagr to Bruins


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#61 StormJH1

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

I am sure I am going to get called all sorts of names for this, but Jesus people, let's just be real.  Ken Holland sucks.

 

The Wings are constantly in a position to add and he snivels and whines about prices being high.  He has shoveled this BS out so many times that people buy in to "we're not contenders."  Garbage.  St. Louis is adding; LA added last year and won as a f***ing 8th seed.

 

Ken Holland is not motivated to win championships, he wants to maintain the status quo--his job--and he keeps the Wings just above water to do so.

 

Datsyuk has a year left; how long is Zetterberg going to be at the level he is?  But just like with Lidstrom, Yzerman, et all.....Kenny will just let their careers wind down without adding b/c he's a *****.

St. Louis and Detroit are in completely different situations.  St. Louis and 2012 Los Angeles are teams loaded with young talent.  You can send picks for Bouwmeester (who still has many years left to play, by the way) when you have an excellent young defensive corps and a number of forwards (Tarasenko, Oshie, etc.) that look promising.  You can trade picks for Iginla if you already have mega-stars like Crosby and Malkin (not to mention a ton of other great forwards). 

 

That philopsophy is the reason Calagry has remained mediocre or worse since the '04 Lockout.  It defies logic that the same approach should apply to the Wings EVERY season, even as the team declines and the farm system fails to pull superstars out of thin air.  The strategy has to change. 

 

If you think Ken Holland "wasted away" Lidstrom's carrers as they won 4 Cups and 3 Cups, respectively, I can't rationalize with you.  Countless 1st rounders that could've been the Wings' next big "steal" were shipped away to bring in "NOW!" guys like Bertuzzi and Quincey.  Those moves arguably made sense at the time, but we're paying for them now. 

 

Jaromir Jagr would make the Wings incrmentally better for a handful of games late in the season, and would make Wings fans feel good about themselves on deadline day.  Beyond that, he does nothing to address the long-term issues facing this team, and acquiring him would be quite antithetical to addressing those concerns.


Edited by StormJH1, 02 April 2013 - 03:58 PM.


#62 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

I am sure I am going to get called all sorts of names for this, but Jesus people, let's just be real.  Ken Holland sucks.

 

The Wings are constantly in a position to add and he snivels and whines about prices being high.  He has shoveled this BS out so many times that people buy in to "we're not contenders."  Garbage.  St. Louis is adding; LA added last year and won as a f***ing 8th seed.

 

Ken Holland is not motivated to win championships, he wants to maintain the status quo--his job--and he keeps the Wings just above water to do so.

 

Datsyuk has a year left; how long is Zetterberg going to be at the level he is?  But just like with Lidstrom, Yzerman, et all.....Kenny will just let their careers wind down without adding b/c he's a *****.

 

Why should someone call you names for YOUR opinion? As much as I disagree with you I respect your opinion just keep in mind what some of these teams have in common:

 

they are Stanley Cup Contenders, the Detroit Red Wings for the first time since two decades are a bubble playoff team (= looking at making them and getting bounced in the first round for the second time in a row). Given the two situations there is only one under which such bold moves would make sense! I would have loved getting Bouwmeester but the reality is, the Wings are not in a position to trade another first round pick in a deep draft, because we might be looking at a very good one here.

 

Derek Roy to the Canucks just made sense, they were looking at a second line center and got him for a good price. The Canucks unlike the Detroit Red Wings are still in a position to contend for the cup, so giving up 2 seconds for 3 weeks of Roy wouldn't have been worth it either.

 

Jagr is 42 years old, is a primadonna only looking for the biggest paycheque and has never shown any loyality to his former franchises so no I wouldn't have wanted him on the Wings and again with no chance to re-sign this guy in the summer, the price just was too high.

 

Iginla didn't have the Wings on his list so thats easily a no starter....so if you are in Ken Hollands position what would you have done differently?

 

Making a move for the sake off it didn't turn out too good last season did it?


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#63 RedWingAbner

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

I am of the opinion that the Wings won 4 Cups in a span where they should've won 6 or 7.

 

The Wings are a team very much different than the Flames.  We have a solid support cast; what the team needs is a few more high-end guys.  The price of doing business in this league is a 1st round pick for said players.

 

Quincey blows; bringing him back for a 1st rounder was stupid.  That doesn't mean that no moves should be made, nor should our first rounder be off limits.  In addition, Bertuzzi was not acquired for a first round pick (Matthias and conditionals).

 

If I Ken Holland, what would I do?  If I was Ken Holland, I'd do nothing and sit smugly.  If I was GM of the Wings and still myself, however, I'd go out and use a 1st/2nd to get Vanek and Ehrhoff (or some semblance of the two) and shore up my team knowing that my #1 center is only playing 1 more season and my captain is advancing in age.



#64 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:09 PM

I am of the opinion that the Wings won 4 Cups in a span where they should've won 6 or 7.

 

The Wings are a team very much different than the Flames.  We have a solid support cast; what the team needs is a few more high-end guys.  The price of doing business in this league is a 1st round pick for said players.

 

Quincey blows; bringing him back for a 1st rounder was stupid.  That doesn't mean that no moves should be made, nor should our first rounder be off limits.  In addition, Bertuzzi was not acquired for a first round pick (Matthias and conditionals).

 

If I Ken Holland, what would I do?  If I was Ken Holland, I'd do nothing and sit smugly.  If I was GM of the Wings and still myself, however, I'd go out and use a 1st/2nd to get Vanek and Ehrhoff (or some semblance of the two) and shore up my team knowing that my #1 center is only playing 1 more season and my captain is advancing in age.

 

So basically the Phil Kessel trade just for a 29 year old Vanek, who has one year left on his contract? Brilliant :-)


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#65 RedWingAbner

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:14 PM

I said a 1st and a 2nd for Vanek and Ehrhoff.  Yes, I will take a 40 goal scorer and a 50 point defenseman.  And no, it's not the Phil Kessel trade as it is not 2 lottery picks.

 

Glad to see that Kenny has you on board with standing pat.  Remember the 80s?  I do.  We're on our way back.



#66 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

I said a 1st and a 2nd for Vanek and Ehrhoff.  Yes, I will take a 40 goal scorer and a 50 point defenseman.  And no, it's not the Phil Kessel trade as it is not 2 lottery picks.

 

Glad to see that Kenny has you on board with standing pat.  Remember the 80s?  I do.  We're on our way back.

 

Ok at first look at the pricetags for some of the keyplayers and then tell me again, how it would be possible to get Vanek for a first and Ehrhoff for a second? Either of them will command a first + an A prospect at least. This would mean giving up 2 first round picks, two top prospects and maybe even more, no but thanks.


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blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#67 stillwater

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

I said a 1st and a 2nd for Vanek and Ehrhoff.  Yes, I will take a 40 goal scorer and a 50 point defenseman.  And no, it's not the Phil Kessel trade as it is not 2 lottery picks.

 

Glad to see that Kenny has you on board with standing pat.  Remember the 80s?  I do.  We're on our way back.

 

If trading draft picks for another 9 years of cap-hit for 30-year old Christian Erhoff is your idea of success, then the 80's will resume shortly.



#68 RedWingAbner

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

When did 30 years old become a negative...?



#69 stillwater

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

Perhaps when you add the extra 9 years of cap hit to his age. I don't know.

 

Perhaps the Wings should trade for Luongo as well, he's younger than Datsyuk ... the 10-years of cap hit be damned.



#70 Crymson

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:34 PM

I said a 1st and a 2nd for Vanek and Ehrhoff.  Yes, I will take a 40 goal scorer and a 50 point defenseman.  And no, it's not the Phil Kessel trade as it is not 2 lottery picks.

 

First off, that's not going to draw the two most effective players on that team. Second, Ehrhoff would be more than a bit of a gamble. He's soft, on the older side, and has a lifetime contract, and he's very questionable defensively. I personally don't think he'll age very well.

 

Glad to see that Kenny has you on board with standing pat.  Remember the 80s?  I do.  We're on our way back.

 

The pessimism and the penchant for black-and-white thinking on this forum are reaching the wrong side of hilarious. Believe it or not, being a middling team does not equal being terrible every year, but that completely basic distinction appears to be lost on some people.



#71 RedWingAbner

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:50 PM

Way to miss the point (on the Luongo thing).

 

Ehrhoff is a puck moving defenseman.  40-50 points is not out of the question.  Vanek is a 40 goal scorer.

 

Are we really worried about what MIGHT be a problem 8-9 years down the road?  Ehrhoff's cap # is $4.0M.  Even at 6 years, that's a decent run.  And as you guys mentioned, he's not physical.....performing to the end of the contract is possible.

 

It's ok to be a middling team?  Jesus Christ, people.  Do you hear yourselves?  This is supposed to be a team that has one goal, every year--The Stanley Cup. 

 

You've been brainwashed into accepting mediocrity so that we can be mediocre for 3-4 more years before falling off, rather than a serious contender (now) and dealing with the future as it comes?  If Ken Holland is the genius some make him out to be, why do we have to accept s*** teams?  If we are nearing the end of our window, why not go for it?

 

Oy.



#72 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

Way to miss the point (on the Luongo thing).

 

Ehrhoff is a puck moving defenseman.  40-50 points is not out of the question.  Vanek is a 40 goal scorer.

 

Are we really worried about what MIGHT be a problem 8-9 years down the road?  Ehrhoff's cap # is $4.0M.  Even at 6 years, that's a decent run.  And as you guys mentioned, he's not physical.....performing to the end of the contract is possible.

 

It's ok to be a middling team?  Jesus Christ, people.  Do you hear yourselves?  This is supposed to be a team that has one goal, every year--The Stanley Cup

 

You've been brainwashed into accepting mediocrity so that we can be mediocre for 3-4 more years before falling off, rather than a serious contender (now) and dealing with the future as it comes?  If Ken Holland is the genius some make him out to be, why do we have to accept s*** teams?  If we are nearing the end of our window, why not go for it?

 

Oy.

If the Wings' goal is to win the cup every year, they should worry about what might be a problem 8-9 years down the road.

 

The moves made this year by other teams would sacrifice success in the future (picks and prospects) for little gain this year if the Wings had any of them. There are trades where the Wings could give up picks and/or prospects for a greater chance of winning this year and in the future, but none of the players who could do this have been traded yet.



#73 stillwater

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

I'll go out on a limb and suggest the Red Wings and no other NHL team would trade any actual assets for 9 more years of Erhoff.

 

The problem with signing free-agent players as part of a bidding war is that you as the GM of any team signing the player has given that player more than anyone else was willing to pay for his services. That makes that player almost impossible to trade, unless some other GM is stupid or desperate.



#74 RedWingAbner

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:03 PM

That's my point exactly.....8-9 years, there may be a problem....or we could lock in a #2/3 defenseman for nearly a decade at a reasonable cost....



#75 Red Crazy

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

Way to miss the point (on the Luongo thing).

 

Ehrhoff is a puck moving defenseman.  40-50 points is not out of the question.  Vanek is a 40 goal scorer.

 

Are we really worried about what MIGHT be a problem 8-9 years down the road?  Ehrhoff's cap # is $4.0M.  Even at 6 years, that's a decent run.  And as you guys mentioned, he's not physical.....performing to the end of the contract is possible.

 

It's ok to be a middling team?  Jesus Christ, people.  Do you hear yourselves?  This is supposed to be a team that has one goal, every year--The Stanley Cup. 

 

You've been brainwashed into accepting mediocrity so that we can be mediocre for 3-4 more years before falling off, rather than a serious contender (now) and dealing with the future as it comes?  If Ken Holland is the genius some make him out to be, why do we have to accept s*** teams?  If we are nearing the end of our window, why not go for it?

 

Oy.

No truer words have ever been said on LGW. Babcock says himself that it is the Wings goal every year to win the cup. Trading picks or prospects for players under contract are a less risky move then hoping that your pick will even play one game in the NHL. The Wings are loaded with prospects I am sure that a few could be traded away without ruining the future. 



#76 Crymson

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

It's ok to be a middling team?  Jesus Christ, people.  Do you hear yourselves?  This is supposed to be a team that has one goal, every year--The Stanley Cup.

 

And I tell you that the days of unlimited spending are over, and that there's no way in the salary-cap era for teams to always succeed. Sharper planning and more involved decision-making are involved, and the mechanics are constantly working against the more successful teams. Guess what? BECAUSE the Wings are successful, KH gets no high picks of any sort to work with. Chicago and Pittsburgh are so successful now in large part because they were horrible enough to get some very high draft picks. Would you like to pay that price? Probably not. But it's necessary the Wings to develop from within if they're going to continue to have any modicum for success while also building for the future.

 

 

No truer words have ever been said on LGW. Babcock says himself that it is the Wings goal every year to win the cup. 

 

It is the goal of EVERY TEAM in EVERY SPORT to win the championship every year, so I don't see your point.

 

 

Trading picks or prospects for players under contract are a less risky move then hoping that your pick will even play one game in the NHL. The Wings are loaded with prospects I am sure that a few could be traded away without ruining the future.

 

This is debatable. If a deadline acquisition plays for your team, does not win the Cup, and leaves in the offseason, then you have lost your prospects and/or picks for nothing. Many teams make deadline deals every season, but ultimately only one team wins the Cup. As for prospects, the team has nine (Sproul, Ouellet, Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, Frk, Pulkkinen, Jurco, and Mrazek) that at present would be foolish to give away. As others have said---and it is true---this is a team that is rebuilding on the fly. Buying success is no longer possible. The teams that have won the Cup in the past four seasons have done so mainly on the strength of players whom they drafted and developed, and they drafted many of those players from high picks that were achieved from bottom-feeding seasons.

 

I'll list these players (first-rounders noted):

 

Pittsburgh (2009): Crosby (1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall), Staal (2nd overall), Fleury (1st overall), Orpik (18th overall), Letang, Kennedy, Scuderi, Talbot

Chicago (2010): Kane (1st overall), Toews (3rd overall), Seabrook (14th overall), Hjalmarsson, Keith, Brouwer, Byfuglien, Bolland

Boston (2011): Seguin (2nd overall), Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, Marchand

Los Angeles (2012): Kopitar (11th overall), Brown (10th overall), Doughty (2nd overall), Voynov, Lewis (17th overall), Bernier (11th overall), Quick, King, Martinez

 

The above players, most particularly (italicized for emphasis) those drafted high in the 1st round, provided the meat for those Stanley Cup-winning teams. The contributions of Toews, Kane, Kopitar, Brown, Crosby, and Malkin require no explanation, and the highest pick used to select one of those was #11. For that matter, the lowest 1st-round-drafted player I listed above went at #18. In contrast, the highest pick that Holland has had (Kindl) since he has been with the Wings was #19. The highest pick that the Wings had before that? 10th overall... in 1991.

 

That's just how things go now. Want the Wings to remain successful? Great, but be aware that it'll come at the cost of never having any of these superstar draft picks unless KH and his team get very fortunate (as they often have). That's something the organization will always need to contend with. But in the salary cap era, it's doubly vital to develop the good prospects that the team does obtain. On that subject, consider if Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Kronwall had been sent away as a part of a deadline deal when they were still prospects. This team would look very different now, almost certainly for the worse. And at this stage of time, KH can even more not risk sending away the next potential superstar prospect, because there's no longer the buffer of higher spending.

 

Like it or not, that's how it is. KH & company have been able to maintain the team's momentum since the lockout better than any other team in the league, but the system is constantly working against them in this.


Edited by Crymson, 02 April 2013 - 06:21 PM.


#77 brett

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:14 PM

vanek and ernoff that actually sounds good

 

hmm lets see flip+nyquist+white+ 1st wonder if thatll do it



#78 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

Like it or not, that's how it is. KH & company have been able to maintain the team's momentum since the lockout better than any other team in the league, but the system is constantly working against them.

 

Couldn't agree more if I am Chris I. I'd tell my dad to drop the revenue sharing until a certain key is fired and the league actually rewards success and advise him to get other big dogs on board. The Wings under NON communism standards would be icing a Stanley Cup Contender every year wonder why? Because they have the best owner in all of sports but he  isn't allowed to use his money by someone who has no clue about hockey AND has to pay millions to keep questionable teams alife.


Edited by frankgrimes, 02 April 2013 - 06:23 PM.

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#79 stillwater

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:26 PM

vanek and ernoff that actually sounds good

 

hmm lets see flip+nyquist+white+ 1st wonder if thatll do it

 

Vanek doesn't need to be traded right now. He's still under the Sabre's control for another year. The notion upthread that he could be had NOW for a 1st round pick is unrealistic. Perhaps at this time next year when the Sabres will be in a postion to lose him for nothing, a #1 might do it.

 

Right now it's probably more like Tatar or Nyquist, and Smith or Kindl, and a 1st round pick.

 

Raise your hand if you want to try to win now, at that cost.



#80 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:41 PM

vanek and ernoff that actually sounds good

 

hmm lets see flip+nyquist+white+ 1st wonder if thatll do it

 

I would give that some thought.


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