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Ericsson for Courturier?


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#41 Crymson

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

And where is Jimmy right now?

 

He's of of the top ten goalies in the league, that's where.

 

That said, I agree that Mrazek and Ouellet would be an overpayment. Couturier's future potential is by no means assured either, and his level of play this season greatly leaves something to be desired.



#42 StormJH1

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:36 PM

The Flyers freakin' love Couturier.  They may trade him for the right deal, and for Cap-related issues, but not unless the return is better than Jonathan Ericsson.


This isn't a thread about Jimmy Howard, but I really don't believe in "elite" goaltenders anymore.  There are guys like Kiprusoff, Giguere, and Cam Ward who have won Cups and were considered "elite-level" netminders at points in their career....and then look completely ordinary at other times.  Team defense and system certainly has a lot to do with that.

 

I think there's minimum level of competency and consistency you need to prove as a goaltender that places you in the first or second "tier" of goaltenders, and any one of those guys could be good enough to do the job in the right circumstance.  Problem is, I think there's literally 15 of those guys.  Lundquist, Rinne, Luongo, Niemi, Price, Ryan Miller....all those guys are capable of playing at at top level, and I think Jimmy Howard is somewhere in that group.  At the same time, I could easily see a guy like Rinne or Price not being nearly has well regarded in 3 years, if their performances tail off a bit.

 

I feel like in the "dead puck" era, the combination of a defensively-oriented game and no salary cap (which allowed teams like Detroit, Colorado, etc. to restock) helped breed these "super goalies" like Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Hasek, etc.  All of them were greats, but I'm not sure you could have dropped them into this era and expected 10-15 year careers of sustained superstardom.  With those adjusted expectations in mind, we're damn lucky to have Jimmy Howard, and luckier still that he doesn't cost what Luongo costs (yet, anyway).



#43 FlashyG

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

LOL are you f*cken serious right now????????  how many vezina's and mvps did hasek win???? howard?? PLEASE dont even compare hasek to howard PLEASE

 

and obviously winning the cup alone doesnt make you elite but winning series on your own and taking your team to the top by yourself and winning the mvp like ward and quick does

 

 

wait till howard wins just one series by himself and then you call him elite .... dont even bring up hasek again thats just an insult



your the crazy one ... when did i ever say howard is a failure?????? i said hes played good for us and hes a good goalie i just wouldnt say hes ELITE ... and your right about price he hasnt proven himself yet but he does have all the tools and is still young , you go ask 30 gms if theyd rather want price or howard i  bet you an overwhelming amount of teams would rather have price



 

 

so people were stupid when they said luongo was a franchise goalie on draft day? marc andre fleury(even though hes been bad has been the number 1 and won a cup) there are plenty of goalies who never played an nhl game yet and were being touted as franchise goalies

 

Just because mrazek played 2 nhl games doesnt mean he doesnt have what it takes to be a franchise guy

 

Those guys were looked at as "potential" Franchise goalies because they were 1st and 4th overall picks. Also both their status' as franchise goalies are debatable, especially in Fluery's case.

 

Its awfully hard to make a case that the expectations for a guy drafted in the 5th round should be as high as they are for a guy drafted in the first spot in the entire draft.

 

Its not impossible for Mrazek to overcome that and I hope he does, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

 

Again, I don't think we should trade him, I just don't think he's going to be taking the #1 job from Howard unless he makes significant improvement over the next few years, or Howard takes some significant steps backwards.



#44 wingfan1991

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

I'd trade Ericsson for a puck, seriously. How he gets 3+ a year is beyond me.

#45 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:50 PM

Those guys were looked at as "potential" Franchise goalies because they were 1st and 4th overall picks. Also both their status' as franchise goalies are debatable, especially in Fluery's case.

 

Its awfully hard to make a case that the expectations for a guy drafted in the 5th round should be as high as they are for a guy drafted in the first spot in the entire draft.

 

Its not impossible for Mrazek to overcome that and I hope he does, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

 

Again, I don't think we should trade him, I just don't think he's going to be taking the #1 job from Howard unless he makes significant improvement over the next few years, or Howard takes some significant steps backwards.

 

Those guys were looked at as "potential" Franchise goalies because they were 1st and 4th overall picks. Also both their status' as franchise goalies are debatable, especially in Fluery's case.

 

Its awfully hard to make a case that the expectations for a guy drafted in the 5th round should be as high as they are for a guy drafted in the first spot in the entire draft.

 

Its not impossible for Mrazek to overcome that and I hope he does, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

 

Again, I don't think we should trade him, I just don't think he's going to be taking the #1 job from Howard unless he makes significant improvement over the next few years, or Howard takes some significant steps backwards.

 

lundqvist Selected by New York Rangers round 7 #205 overall 2000 NHL Entry Draft

 

hasek Selected by Chicago Blackhawks round 10 #199 overall 1983 NHL Entry Draft

 

rinne Selected by Nashville Predators round 8 #258 overall 2004 NHL Entry Draft

 

kiprusoff Selected by San Jose Sharks round 5 #116 overall 1995 NHL Entry Draft

 

 

yes its possible we could have drafted a franchise goalie in the 5th round ... it happens



#46 FlashyG

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:56 PM

lundqvist Selected by New York Rangers round 7 #205 overall 2000 NHL Entry Draft
 
hasek Selected by Chicago Blackhawks round 10 #199 overall 1983 NHL Entry Draft
 
rinne Selected by Nashville Predators round 8 #258 overall 2004 NHL Entry Draft
 
kiprusoff Selected by San Jose Sharks round 5 #116 overall 1995 NHL Entry Draft
 
 
yes its possible we could have drafted a franchise goalie in the 5th round ... it happens

 
I know its possible, I even said so in the post you quoted.. I said the odd's aren't in his favor. Would you like me to quote you all the goalies drafted after the 1st round who didn't make it to the NHL? It will be a far longer list than the one you just posted.

Also, none of those goalies were thought of as Franchise goalies when they were drafted they developed into one. Thats all I'm saying, lets see if Mrazek can develop like some of them did before we start throwing around terms like elite and franchise goalie. He's got a lot of work to do to be in the company of those guys or even Howard.

Edited by FlashyG, 02 April 2013 - 07:58 PM.


#47 Richdg

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

Sheahan who i like is not going to be a top 6 forward. he is Abdelkader version 2.0. Which is fine btw. as for mraz..... i was driving home tonight listening to the Griffins pregame. Where Kazor was talking about Mraz having lost his last 5 games and really struggling. McCollom was starting agian tonight and playing well. Point of this is, before we talk about any player currently in the minors being a future NHL star, maybe they should produce for a few years in the minors first? History is filled with guys with talent that don't make it. It takes far more than that to even become a regular NHL player. To say nothing about becomign a star.



#48 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:06 PM

 
I know its possible, I even said so in the post you quoted.. I said the odd's aren't in his favor. Would you like me to quote you all the goalies drafted after the 1st round who didn't make it to the NHL? It will be a far longer list than the one you just posted.

Also, none of those goalies were thought of as Franchise goalies when they were drafted they developed into one. Thats all I'm saying, lets see if Mrazek can develop like some of them did before we start throwing around terms like elite and franchise goalie. He's got a lot of work to do to be in the company of those guys or even Howard.

 

 

and mrazek is developing into one as we speak ;) ... lets just agree to disagree if in 3 years hes a bum call me out ill gladly say i was a f*cken idiot but i dont see that happening ... gonna end it here cause this can go on forever lol



#49 Crymson

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:10 PM

Sheahan who i like is not going to be a top 6 forward. he is Abdelkader version 2.0. Which is fine btw. as for mraz..... i was driving home tonight listening to the Griffins pregame. Where Kazor was talking about Mraz having lost his last 5 games and really struggling. McCollom was starting agian tonight and playing well. Point of this is, before we talk about any player currently in the minors being a future NHL star, maybe they should produce for a few years in the minors first? History is filled with guys with talent that don't make it. It takes far more than that to even become a regular NHL player. To say nothing about becomign a star.

 

Sheahan is in his first season. It's more than a bit early to be passing final judgments like that.

 

Yes, it's certainly true that most prospects don't make the NHL. However, that's no good reason to trade the ones who have potential.



#50 Richdg

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

Sheahan is in his first season. It's more than a bit early to be passing final judgments like that.

 

Yes, it's certainly true that most prospects don't make the NHL. However, that's no good reason to trade the ones who have potential.

Yes there is. To get proven players. You wouldn't include Mraz in a move for Ryan? Or Malkin? or hell you get the point. To have 10 Dmen and 4 G's and holes at forward is not a team that is going to win SC's. add to that you never know which prospect is going to turn out. Most don't.



#51 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:30 PM

Yes there is. To get proven players. You wouldn't include Mraz in a move for Ryan? Or Malkin? or hell you get the point. To have 10 Dmen and 4 G's and holes at forward is not a team that is going to win SC's. add to that you never know which prospect is going to turn out. Most don't.

 

No!



#52 puckbags

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:03 PM

sorry doesnt look appealing ... just because howard is doing well doesnt mean mrazek wont surpass him and we can trade howard in 2-4 yrs  you think if chicago could redo the hasek trade they wouldnt of kept hasek and trade belfour a year or 2 later??

 

sorry mrazek is untouchable hes got the potential to steal a series by himself  , if you wanna trade a goalie prospect its jake patterson



 

 

whens the last time we had a true superstar goalie with the wings??? osgood ?? vernon??cheveldae?? hanlon? howard is good but i wouldnt say hes an elite goalie we finally have one in mrazek who can be an elite nhl goalie and you guys wanna ship him off .... no thank you



 

 

if anything in 3-4 yrs we can get a nice return back for howard when mrazek is ready for fulltime duties

 

Where do you come up with this stuff...I agree, great world jr's, good AHL season but the guy has played 2 NHL games and was good in 1 of them.  If they thought Mrazek was as good as you think he is we wouldn't be trying to get Jimmy signed.  Your man love for this guy is borderline weird.



If Mrazek has to be the piece involved to get us a top 6 goal scorer such as Ryan or Vanek I would ship him out in a heartbeat.  Jimmy is hear for the long run and I feel great about that.  


"Hard Work Beats Talent When Talent Refuses to Work Hard"

 

 


#53 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

Where do you come up with this stuff...I agree, great world jr's, good AHL season but the guy has played 2 NHL games and was good in 1 of them.  If they thought Mrazek was as good as you think he is we wouldn't be trying to get Jimmy signed.  Your man love for this guy is borderline weird.



If Mrazek has to be the piece involved to get us a top 6 goal scorer such as Ryan or Vanek I would ship him out in a heartbeat.  Jimmy is hear for the long run and I feel great about that.  

 

 

mrazek just turned 21 in february for f*cks sake  whens the last time you saw someone so young become a fulltime nhl starter let alone a backup??

 

goalies become ready when there 23-25 i wouldnt be surprised if he plays another 2 full seasons in the ahl to develop doesnt mean hes gonna be a bum at 23 ... i hope youll feel great about jimmy when the wings trade him in 3 years and get that ryan/vanek type player you want



#54 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:14 PM

mrazek just turned 21 in february for f*cks sake  whens the last time you saw someone so young become a fulltime nhl starter let alone a backup??

 

goalies become ready when there 23-25 i wouldnt be surprised if he plays another 2 full seasons in the ahl to develop doesnt mean hes gonna be a bum at 23 ... i hope youll feel great about jimmy when the wings trade him in 3 years and get that ryan/vanek type player you want

 

your precious carey price started in the nhl that young... just sayin



#55 Carman

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:22 PM

Mrazek is awesome, no one is trying to put him down at least I'd hope not. I would only trade him for a player that I know for a fact will step in and play a top 6 role for this team for the next 5 years at least. That's all.

 

I can understand where you are coming from, Mrazek is an exciting prospect, and he has a ton of potential.



#56 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:24 PM

Bobrovsky, Pavelec, Price, Bryzgalov, MAF, Rask, Lehtonen, Varlamov, Ward, Anderson... just to name a few that started between 20-22 years old



#57 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:38 AM

your precious carey price started in the nhl that young... just sayin

 

 

ya and he wasnt ready , halak was the one who carried them to the eastern finals



Mrazek is awesome, no one is trying to put him down at least I'd hope not. I would only trade him for a player that I know for a fact will step in and play a top 6 role for this team for the next 5 years at least. That's all.

 

I can understand where you are coming from, Mrazek is an exciting prospect, and he has a ton of potential.

 

so offer up patterson instead dont know why your so hellbent on getting rid of him ,calgary wanted malcolm subban and boston refused , those type of goalie prospects dont grow on trees

 

we thought mccollum was gonna be our future number 1 and he never did anything since he turned pro unlike mrazek , cant trade a guy who shows that potential



#58 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:38 AM

No. 


"All done? Five bucks." - Pavel Datsyuk after an interview
"Very few cities in the NHL have the history or the following of the Detroit Red Wings." - Steve Yzerman

 

 


#59 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:42 AM

Bobrovsky, Pavelec, Price, Bryzgalov, MAF, Rask, Lehtonen, Varlamov, Ward, Anderson... just to name a few that started between 20-22 years old

 

 

and they were fulltime nhl goalies???? im pretty sure none of them were  .... i just checked cam ward ( dont feel like checking all of them )  at 23 yrs old he played 60 games  and thats when he took off with the number 1 ..... i said goalies were ready at 23-25 ... mrazek JUST turned 21 so hes got 2 full seasons ahead probably in the ahl before he will come up and contend for the number 1







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