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DetroitRedWings1993

An interesting point about our apparent deadline strategy

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If anyone here believes Twitter, Dave Waddell and George Malik, do yourself a favor and sleep through the rest of today and all of Wednesday.

I saw a very interesting comment on one of Malik's blog posts today. Not only that, but I totally agree with it.

From PaulInMiamiBeach:

I’m so sick of this “you can’t fix it all at once, so don’t fix any of it at all” attitude. That is a recipe for failure.

He hit it right on the head for me.

Not only that, but I believe it was kipwinger who shared pretty much the same sentiment. Doing nothing makes us just as worse as making a bad deal does. This team is full of bad deals. Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammuelsson, Quincey, Colaiacovo, Gustavsson, the list goes on. If we emerge from this trade deadline the same team, this team is going nowhere. Not even to the playoffs. Nowhere. But, we already knew that, didn't we?

This season wasn't always a "rebuilding/transitional" year. Off the topic, but transitioning to what? Mediocrity? Becoming an awful team for several decades? What's the end result? It honestly frightens me to think about it. Anyways, this season only became such when the team failed to do much of anything in free agency. At that point, management cut off their own collective manhood, threw their hands in the air, and gave up. At least, that's the way I see it.

Also, I'd like to address some ridiculous and false optimism. People cite the lowering of the cap next season and say how many great players will be available because of cap-compliance buyouts.

Sorry, but that's the biggest crock on Earth.

Do people really think that quality players will be bought out?

That's hilarious. No one is going to buy out key pieces, people. Certainly not a top-6 scoring forward who can consistently score goals. That's the reality of it. People think all these players are going to fall right into our lap.

Not only that, but wasn't that the mantra last summer? See how that turned out.

So, by all means Kenny, do nothing. I just hope your prepared for another firestorm from everyone around you afterwards. I would've thought you'd be sick of that already.

Our prospects aren't nearly as good as everyone seems to think. I've seen Tatar and Nyquist...and I'm not impressed. They've fallen victim to scouting. Teams know them, and I'd say that's about it for them. Our farm system is almost entirely boom-or-bust. See the dramatic peaks and valleys of a lot of their past performances. Jarnkrok and Pulkinnen, especially.

So, I guess tomorrow's a waste of time. Great. It'll be fun watching this team spiral out of control and crash in a flaming heap outside the playoff window.

pondrocket likes this

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Ya I love our middle of the road strategy. Holland lives doing nothing and is OK with a mediocre team.

Rather he goes all in or sells IDC but HD needs to do something. He is quickly falling out of favor with me.

Like I've said before up until this season he has been great but this is his first time with a situation like this. And he is doing horrible. Signing injury prone worthless guys and failing to do the trades that need to be done.

He has the heart of a fan and uses it more than his brain.

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Kenny is the king of doing absolutely nothing. I can guarantee this will be basically te exact same team minus fil ( who holland will let go for free). Nyq and Tatar will play 4th line or get waived will cleary will be re-signed to ride shotgun with pav in his final season as a wing

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Ya I love our middle of the road strategy. Holland lives doing nothing and is OK with a mediocre team.

Rather he goes all in or sells IDC but HD needs to do something. He is quickly falling out of favor with me.

Like I've said before up until this season he has been great but this is his first time with a situation like this. And he is doing horrible. Signing injury prone worthless guys and failing to do the trades that need to be done.

He has the heart of a fan and uses it more than his brain.

If he had the heart of a fan, he would've done something to fix this f*cking train wreck.

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Kenny is the king of doing absolutely nothing. I can guarantee this will be basically te exact same team minus fil ( who holland will let go for free). Nyq and Tatar will play 4th line or get waived will cleary will be re-signed to ride shotgun with pav in his final season as a wing

If I were Datsyuk, I'd walk into Kenny's office and demand a trade off this sinking ship. But, Pav would never do that. He'll just deke Kenny out and go back to work. He'll carry this whole organization by himself, if he has to. That's just so unfair to him.

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If I were Datsyuk, I'd walk into Kenny's office and demand a trade off this sinking ship. But, Pav would never do that. He'll just deke Kenny out and go back to work. He'll carry this whole organization by himself, if he has to. That's just so unfair to him.

Pav is my favorite player of all time. He deserves to have someone to play with. The guy is still so dominant. Get him someone really good to play with and who knows maybe he re-signs for a couple more years.

I'd rather lose a first and a good prospect for a star player plus two more years of pav playing with that star player

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Pav is my favorite player of all time. He deserves to have someone to play with. The guy is still so dominant. Get him someone really good to play with and who knows maybe he re-signs for a couple more years.

I'd rather lose a first and a good prospect for a star player plus two more years of pav playing with that star player

I just want them to do something. But, they won't. I can guarantee this team misses the playoffs without an addition or two.

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Is there any good way to go about this? How close are the Wings right now to being contenders? If they do make a big splash at the deadline, is it going to be big enough for them to have a chance against Chicago, Pittsburgh or Boston in the playoffs? I love the excitement of a trade as much as the next person, but if there is nothing out there that is going to take you to the next level then why force something just to do so? This is a deep draft coming up, so no one is going to want to part with picks either. The Wings do have a bunch of bad contracts on their hands right now, so why would anyone want to take them on? No one wants to give up any decent prospects to get anything and if they do, especially for a rental, it's going to be meltdown city on here. There is no winning here. I'm not in love with the 2012 offseason, but Holland tried... bringing Sammy back was absolutely unnecessary and the Coca sign was high risk/low reward and that's what it ended up being, and Monster has been just bad... but Brunner and Tootoo have both been great for the Wings.

Everyone is on Bert and Sammy's asses, but why is everyone okay with Helm constantly being injured? He's not even the age of these guys. Maybe they should try to move Helm.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here, but people complain just to complain. I don't think there is enough the Wings can do to become legit contenders, so if they can't find a deal... let them go into the offseason and see when they can do there. It's a short season, few teams are out of it at this point so it's not like everyone is going to be shopping everyone like they would in a full season.

My hopes are that the Wings make it to the playoffs for a 22nd straight year and give me extra Wings hockey to watch into hopefully the second round.

nyqvististhefuture likes this

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We like our team.


Everyone is on Bert and Sammy's asses, but why is everyone okay with Helm constantly being injured?

Because Helm is awesome.

Edited by Dabura
gowings00 likes this

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I just want them to do something. But, they won't. I can guarantee this team misses the playoffs without an addition or two.

I bet they do something, probably won't be a huge move, but they WILL do something

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wings should get rid of some players who wont come back and get some picks while they can rather then losing them for nothing

put tatar nyquist andersson in some playoff games and let them get some experience

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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Is there any good way to go about this? How close are the Wings right now to being contenders? If they do make a big splash at the deadline, is it going to be big enough for them to have a chance against Chicago, Pittsburgh or Boston in the playoffs? I love the excitement of a trade as much as the next person, but if there is nothing out there that is going to take you to the next level then why force something just to do so? This is a deep draft coming up, so no one is going to want to part with picks either. The Wings do have a bunch of bad contracts on their hands right now, so why would anyone want to take them on? No one wants to give up any decent prospects to get anything and if they do, especially for a rental, it's going to be meltdown city on here. There is no winning here. I'm not in love with the 2012 offseason, but Holland tried... bringing Sammy back was absolutely unnecessary and the Coca sign was high risk/low reward and that's what it ended up being, and Monster has been just bad... but Brunner and Tootoo have both been great for the Wings.

Everyone is on Bert and Sammy's asses, but why is everyone okay with Helm constantly being injured? He's not even the age of these guys. Maybe they should try to move Helm.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here, but people complain just to complain. I don't think there is enough the Wings can do to become legit contenders, so if they can't find a deal... let them go into the offseason and see when they can do there. It's a short season, few teams are out of it at this point so it's not like everyone is going to be shopping everyone like they would in a full season.

My hopes are that the Wings make it to the playoffs for a 22nd straight year and give me extra Wings hockey to watch into hopefully the second round.

A team that is a combined 4-1 against Anaheim and Vancouver isn't a contender? A team that has beaten L.A., Minnesota, San Jose, and St. Louis isn't a contender? A team that has stayed in the playoffs virtually all season without most of their regular lineup isn't a contender? A team that has an improving defense and solid goaltending isn't a contender? A team with Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg in the top-6 isn't a contender?

You see where I'm going. And no. People don't complain just to complain. They complain because when they see s***, they point it out.

There ARE players available. Drew Stafford could help. Fleischmann, Pominville and Gaborik could all help.

The playoffs are a guaranteed bust even if we make it. And with what's happened lately, I see us crashing and burning FAR outside the playoff bubble.

esteef likes this

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Not only that, but I believe it was kipwinger who shared pretty much the same sentiment. Doing nothing makes us just as worse as making a bad deal does. This team is full of bad deals. Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammuelsson, Quincey, Colaiacovo, Gustavsson, the list goes on. If we emerge from this trade deadline the same team, this team is going nowhere. Not even to the playoffs. Nowhere. But, we already knew that, didn't we?

Cleary, Bertuzzi can only be considered bad deals if you look at it with a hindsight perspective (both have factored in well to our team prior to their current deals); Sammy and Colaiacovo are bad deals only due to their long injury time (they've played less than 10 games between them if I'm not mistaken); and Gustavsson has played perfectly fine as far as being a backup goalie goes, he's had bad games but I blame lapses from the team as a whole rather than him as an individual. I don't see how we are not going to the playoffs with the team we have... we currently sit 7th and 3 points out of 4th, 4 points ahead of 9th. We can go up or down depending on how the players play, even with this team as is.

Our prospects aren't nearly as good as everyone seems to think. I've seen Tatar and Nyquist...and I'm not impressed. They've fallen victim to scouting. Teams know them, and I'd say that's about it for them. Our farm system is almost entirely boom-or-bust. See the dramatic peaks and valleys of a lot of their past performances. Jarnkrok and Pulkinnen, especially.

Our "prospects" made up a good chunk of our team if you didn't notice. Andersson has been great in his role, Tatar scored a few on a team that severely lacks in offense, Emmerton has done fine, Nyquist needs size but he's fine; Lashoff and Smith are a huge part of the reason we aren't bottom dwellers. Sure they're not superstars ala Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but I am not so sure they were ever expected to be the next "Euro Twins"

Basically, we don't stand a chance at winning a cup if we don't add to our team, but there is absolutely no reason in the world why we should trade away our future and just delay a rebuilding phase another year, maybe even making it worse in the process. I doubt Holland will be able to make anything big happen tomorrow, but that doesn't mean we won't be making the playoffs.

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I bet they do something, probably won't be a huge move, but they WILL do something

Technically, they already did something. They traded Huskins to the Flyers for a draft pick we might not even get.

edicius likes this

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Holland admitted at the start of the season that the team might not make the playoffs. Of course this is a rebuilding year. The GM brass just won't come right out and say it because the team has so many fans who would balk at the idea. A lot of posters call Wings fans spoiled. I'm not one of them. Instead, I think Wings fans are impatient. Many have been watching the team since 2000 or so and think they're veteran fans. They've never experienced a rebuild. They've never developed the patience it can sometimes take to follow a franchise. As a result, the organization is rebuilding on the fly while never publicly admitting to it.

The Wings are quietly (and not-so-quietly last week) building a nice young defense. The team also has a variety of forward prospects in GR and elsewhere, along with veteran leadership (Zetterberg) that won't be going anywhere for a number of years.

Have faith, fans, and be patient. Enjoy the magic of Datsyuk and the emergence of young stars over the next few seasons.

Edited by Serratoni
derblaueClaus and whitewolf406 like this

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I love it - one thread bemoaning Hollands passivity. Another thread praising it.

Man, this board is getting as bi-polar as our team. I haven't seen it split like this since the Great Enforcer Wars of 4-5 years ago.

Ohhh - don't get me started!

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Cleary, Bertuzzi can only be considered bad deals if you look at it with a hindsight perspective (both have factored in well to our team prior to their current deals); Sammy and Colaiacovo are bad deals only due to their long injury time (they've played less than 10 games between them if I'm not mistaken); and Gustavsson has played perfectly fine as far as being a backup goalie goes, he's had bad games but I blame lapses from the team as a whole rather than him as an individual. I don't see how we are not going to the playoffs with the team we have... we currently sit 7th and 3 points out of 4th, 4 points ahead of 9th. We can go up or down depending on how the players play, even with this team as is.

Our "prospects" made up a good chunk of our team if you didn't notice. Andersson has been great in his role, Tatar scored a few on a team that severely lacks in offense, Emmerton has done fine, Nyquist needs size but he's fine; Lashoff and Smith are a huge part of the reason we aren't bottom dwellers. Sure they're not superstars ala Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but I am not so sure they were ever expected to be the next "Euro Twins"

Basically, we don't stand a chance at winning a cup if we don't add to our team, but there is absolutely no reason in the world why we should trade away our future and just delay a rebuilding phase another year, maybe even making it worse in the process. I doubt Holland will be able to make anything big happen tomorrow, but that doesn't mean we won't be making the playoffs.

Ok...

Everyone around us in the standings, with the possible exception of St. Louis, has started to heat up and stands to add. We are staying the same with everyone around us getting better. We were high enough in the standings last year that we could stand the type of hideous collapse we had.

Simply put, that's a recipe for missing the playoffs.

Smith has been either ineffective or terrible in his own zone. He has supremely disappointed me. A guy with his talent SHOULD NOT be as invisible as he is on a nightly basis.

You don't have to trade away your future. One prospect and a draft pick IS NOT the future. If that's the case, the farm system is EXTREMELY shallow.

Edited by DetroitRedWings1993
esteef likes this

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A team that is a combined 4-1 against Anaheim and Vancouver isn't a contender? A team that has beaten L.A., Minnesota, San Jose, and St. Louis isn't a contender? A team that has stayed in the playoffs virtually all season without most of their regular lineup isn't a contender? A team that has an improving defense and solid goaltending isn't a contender? A team with Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg in the top-6 isn't a contender?

You see where I'm going. And no. People don't complain just to complain. They complain because when they see s***, they point it out.

There ARE players available. Drew Stafford could help. Fleischmann, Pominville and Gaborik could all help.

The playoffs are a guaranteed bust even if we make it. And with what's happened lately, I see us crashing and burning FAR outside the playoff bubble.

No the Wings aren't a contender for Lord Stanley this season, Stafford, Fleischmann, Pominvolle and even Gaborik wouldn't change that. Succesful teams are building from the net out not the other way.

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It's absolutely true that we are not one or two solid moves from being a legit contender, but I tend to agree that that fact alone doesn't mean we shouldn't be moving towards something. By that I mean, if we're not a contender, and we're not going to land rentals on a bargain that would make us a 2nd round team, we better be trading guys like Flip for whatever we can get. If you want to do a song and dance about building your team through the draft and developing prospects, when you know that it's highly likely you're going to lose the guy for nothing, trade him now. We're not making a run this year, and the way Flip's playing lately, it wouldn't be the most horrid loss anyways. (And to be fair, this could still happen in the next 20 hours or so, I realize that, but it's looking unlikely.)

This is what kills me lately about Holland and the whole situation. What he says and what he does regarding this team just seem beyond all sense and reason. You know he and everyone involved with this team knows they don't have the team to make a run unless a lot of flukey things happen and Howard turns it on and plays out of his mind. If other teams get battered and Howard gets hot, we've seen time and again that a seemingly weaker team can ride that wave a long ways in the playoffs. But you can't bet on that. So yeah, we're probably a playoff team, but we can't reasonably say we're contenders. If you're serious when you say we can't afford to leverage our future for the present, you need to move Flip by the trade deadline for whatever you can get and anyone else that a team might want that we can afford to lose. Some have suggested White. Maybe. We surely can afford to trade him for a later-round pick in 2014 if someone actually wants him, because lately he's watched games from the press box and he's not likely to be brought back.

I'm fine that Holland didn't land Jagr. If cheaper, it would've been nice as it gives us more of a shot if Howard were to heat up in the playoffs, but he wasn't worth the price. I shrugged and thought nothing of it when Iginla was traded to the Pens. I had no real opinion about Bouwmeester; I saw upsides and downsides. All in all, I'm not thinking that it was a bad move to skip out on the bigger names available right now. But in doing that, you have to be honest about what it means to this team's immediate future, because your overachieving team didn't improve at all while all the legit contenders just got even better. If you're serious about how you believe you have to build a team in the cap era, you unload Flip at the very least right now. I keep running it through my head in different ways and trying to see both sides of it, but I see no other options. If you have the team we have now, and you basically are giving up on improving it at the deadline, you have to do what you can to move assets so you might be able to improve it in the future.

That is, unless you truly don't know what you want to do with this team, which I fear more and more to be the case as time goes on.

Edited by gcom007
EuroWing and frankgrimes like this

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malik is absolutely clueless. disregard anything he posts that isn't regurgitated from someone else.

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Is there any good way to go about this? How close are the Wings right now to being contenders? If they do make a big splash at the deadline, is it going to be big enough for them to have a chance against Chicago, Pittsburgh or Boston in the playoffs? I love the excitement of a trade as much as the next person, but if there is nothing out there that is going to take you to the next level then why force something just to do so? This is a deep draft coming up, so no one is going to want to part with picks either. The Wings do have a bunch of bad contracts on their hands right now, so why would anyone want to take them on? No one wants to give up any decent prospects to get anything and if they do, especially for a rental, it's going to be meltdown city on here. There is no winning here. I'm not in love with the 2012 offseason, but Holland tried... bringing Sammy back was absolutely unnecessary and the Coca sign was high risk/low reward and that's what it ended up being, and Monster has been just bad... but Brunner and Tootoo have both been great for the Wings.

Everyone is on Bert and Sammy's asses, but why is everyone okay with Helm constantly being injured? He's not even the age of these guys. Maybe they should try to move Helm.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here, but people complain just to complain. I don't think there is enough the Wings can do to become legit contenders, so if they can't find a deal... let them go into the offseason and see when they can do there. It's a short season, few teams are out of it at this point so it's not like everyone is going to be shopping everyone like they would in a full season.

My hopes are that the Wings make it to the playoffs for a 22nd straight year and give me extra Wings hockey to watch into hopefully the second round.

Yes. You plan for the 2015 season and beyond. Anyone not in plans for that season and beyond can and should be moved. Allowing young guys to play. People need to get past their fandom of not moving certain players. Holding into to guys and letting them walk for nothing is STUPID. Dats and film should both be traded or resign now. Clearly has no value. Sammy and Bert don't either...injured and ntc. I would move helm if he ever got healthy to be traded.

But like I said Holland has the heart of fan. He is in love with players and fails to move them when they need to be.

Then the reverse side if you want to go all in which you can do. It means. You end up trading a handful of defense prospects, Nyquist, Tatar, or some picks. But this team is at least three players away from being a legit contender. Its possible but not likely. That's why selling IMO is the better option.

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