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DetroitRedWings1993

An interesting point about our apparent deadline strategy

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It's funny that you ask this. I was writing a post---it would have been the first response---and then halfway through decided that it just wasn't worth it. I've been doing that quite a bit on here lately; I'm finding myself more inclined to ignore opinions I consider completely absurd than I am to respond to them. Because why bother?

That said, thank you for the shout out; I'm glad I'm so notorious as a positive voice here.

Edit: hey, why not ask a couple of questions anyway? Here goes! OP: first off, what will you do if the Wings succeed, in spite of your guarantee (whatever that's worth) to the contrary, in making the playoffs. And second, what, exactly, is so novel to you about great players residing on non-contender teams?

Positive voice? I would give it to you if you said that the opinions you tend to express about the Wings tend to be optimistic, but your method of expressing your thoughts and opinions is anything but positive. To be completely honest, one of the biggest reasons I have a hard time taking most of your posts seriously is because I can't tell if you're truly just trying to be an optimistic fan or if you're someone who just likes to stir the pot. Maybe it's a fine line to you; maybe you're just jaded by the polarized hysteria that tends to rule most internet fan forums. You may be genuinely optimistic and content with the way this team is run and the general state of things, but you post like you're getting a kick out of beating people with a "2X4 of Optimism." And again, perhaps this happens because you're just jaded, and to be clear, I can certainly understand that and in this case, I think the state of being jaded by internet message forums is a very sane and utterly reasonable response. Whether your optimistic thoughts or opinions are valid and genuine or not, they rarely sound like they're coming from one who is a "positive voice."

So if you're just trying to stir the pot, well, good job. You stir the pot very well. But if you actually are seeking to discuss your real thoughts and opinions in a manner that might cause those thoughts to be well-received by others, you need to rethink the way you're expressing yourself.

Edited by gcom007

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This deadline was doomed with the shorten season. I said from the start that trades would be few and far between this year to many team still in the hunt. Now with that said we knew for quite some time that we needed help on both Defense and offense we should have tried to fix that before the start of the year. If we don't fix it this off season I say dump and re- build

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I think you're drastically undervaluing some of the Wings players in order to make this list.

Both Franzen and Brunner have produced at essentially equal or better rates than many players on your list including, Heatley, Selanne, Hossa, Sharp, Carter, Brown, Richards, Iginla, Horton, Lucic, Callahan, Gaborik and Richards.

Offensively Kronwall has outplayed every defenceman on your list but Suter and Letang. Kronwalls deficiency is his defence, and the 2 guys you suggest acquiring are actually worse defensively than he is.

Then in net you list Quick who has the worst Sv% of all starting goalies in the entire league, and who trails Howard in every single goalie stat.

Detroits list of depth should read

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, Brunner and Howard.

Still isn't likely to get us the cup, but definitely better than you make it seem.

Brunner doesn't belong in your list just yet. Franzen....well... :-\

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I love it - one thread bemoaning Hollands passivity. Another thread praising it.

Man, this board is getting as bi-polar as our team. I haven't seen it split like this since the Great Enforcer Wars of 4-5 years ago.

My favourite colour is aggressive salmon.

I'm kind of middle of the road where I want to trade guys like Flip, Quincey and White, but I'd also be cool with getting Pominville, Gaborik or Eriksson, but I'd rather see guys like Pulkkinen or Ferraro go along with a couple roster players as opposed to our 1st or 2nd round picks this year.

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The guy was injured and still was descent. Datsyuk's been disappointing in the playoffs when injured too. People pissed and moaned about that before too. It's all silliness to me. These guys are some of the best players in the game. Fickle fan complaints about lack of production due to injury don't change that. Though to be fair and clear, no one's calling these guys 2002 Yzerman either, and it'd be almost inhuman to really draw the comparison between Yzerman's ability to play through pain and anyone else.

But anyways, Hossa didn't put up the numbers some would like, but he didn't completely disappear either, again, despite dealing with injuries and playing alongside a team full of guys struggling with their own injuries. 2009 was a rough playoff run for this team; even Lidstrom missed games. When everyone around you is also struggling, it's all the harder to rise above your injury, which ultimately I think is why we lost that year. We were a better team, but we were way to beat up, and got as far as we did mostly thanks to strong play from Osgood, who undoubtedly would have snagged the Conn Smythe trophy had we won game 7.

Sounds like the same crowd who bemoaned for a decade or two that the Wings picked Primeau over Jagr. Move on, people

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Isn't it interesting how quickly people turn on each other when things don't go well. It's getting more and more vicious in the forums the past few years. Lets not forget that we're all Wings fans here and the sun will still come up tomorrow. We just may be the 8th seed. :)

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If i were GM I would:

1) Identify my core players and sign them to high dollar deals for 3-5 years. If i really have confidence in one of them, maybe 6-7 years. Don't lock in for longer than that. Two guys on defense, five guys on offense and a goalie. 8 core guys in total.

2) Fill out the rest of my roster with average guys who are hard working, durable and not too old. Grinders that are young and not worn down.

3) Avoid older guys who have a reputation of being physical...they generally wear out at that age. My physical guys have to be younger guys.

4) Avoid trading cheap assets with potential upside for rentals or old guys...that's a losing strategy.

5) Identify the top 1 - 2 free agents every year or so and go at them very hard with a high dollar deals. The core needs to be replenished. If the core drops to a low level (like 5 or less), you have to replenish.

6) Bank on the fact that eventually a prospect or two will turn into a core player. But they have to be evaluated on the NHL level between the ages of 21 -24 regularly. No more over-ripen bulls**t.

7) Every year at the end of the season, some changes have to be made. It is like re-balancing your stock portfolio. You need to make some changes. Even if you win a cup. That's the best time to make changes because that is when your assets will be worth most...after a good season.

8) Don't be afraid of occasionally making a bad deal...but when you do, cut your losses. Don't hang on to a mistake forever.

The NHL with the cap system requires yearly re-assessment and adjustments to maintain competitiveness. As GM, you have to have thought all this out and made your moves during the off-season. Scrambling at the trading deadline is not ideal and should be avoided if possible.

BadgerBob likes this

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Brunner doesn't belong in your list just yet. Franzen....well... :-\

I didn't set the threshold to make the list, nor did I make the list, I just pointed out that based on their production both Franzen and Brunner are good enough to make it.

Here are the players I mentioned sorted by PPG, with their cap hits included.

Franzen .690 - Cap hit 3.954

Iginla .688 - Cap hit 7.0

Carter .685 - Cap hit 5.72

Brown .657 - Cap hit 3.175

Brunner .629 - Cap hit 1.35

Richards .629 - Cap hit 5.75

Lucic .606 - Cap hit 4.08

Callahan .593 - Cap hit 4.275

Horton .589 - Cap hit 4.00

Selanne .583 - Cap hit 4.5

Richards .576 - Cap hit 6.66

Heatley .571 - Cap hit 7.5

Gaborik .542 - Cap hit 7.5

Note - I was wrong about Hossa and Sharp, I didn't notice how many games they missed initially, Hossa has 23 pts in 28 games and Sharp has 18 in 24 vs Franzen's 20 in 29.

Its always odd to me when I see people calling for trading or in some cases buying out Franzen with the idea being to replace him with one of the many players that produce less than he does. Especially when all but Brown make more than him, and that's only going to last until next season when Brown will be extended at a far higher pay grade. Brunner, by far though, is the bargain of the group.

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Like it or not, that's how it is. KH & company have been able to maintain the team's momentum since the lockout better than any other team in the league, but the system is constantly working against them in this.

This. The whole system is made to prevent constant success. And if you take a look at other teams that were successful in the late 90s/early 00s most of them went through or are rebuilding. The Red Wings on the other hand are the NHLs synonym for constantly competing at the highest level. Thats what we are hated and admired for. And thats the great work of no one other than Mr. Holland and his team. So it maybe would be wise to have a little trust in him.

Concerning the Trade-Deadline I repeat what I wrote in another Thread : Its simply an awful time to trade for the Wings as we are heading East. Teams in the East won't like trading with us because we will face them next Season, teams in the West won't like trading with us because we might meet them in the Playoffs. That combined with the close standings and the fact that because of the CBA some Top 6 Players will most likely be available for free this summer it would be very stupid to make a desperate move and give away our future for a player you can get for nothing this summer.

So if Holland can make a move for a Top 6 Winger for a reasonable price (3rd or 4th or 5th-Roundpick, 2 prospects and/or 1 Rosterplayer) : Fine, go ahead. If not, its better to stay patient for the reasons stated above.

Edited by derblaueClaus

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I didn't set the threshold to make the list, nor did I make the list, I just pointed out that based on their production both Franzen and Brunner are good enough to make it.

Here are the players I mentioned sorted by PPG, with their cap hits included.

Franzen .690 - Cap hit 3.954

Iginla .688 - Cap hit 7.0

Carter .685 - Cap hit 5.72

Brown .657 - Cap hit 3.175

Brunner .629 - Cap hit 1.35

Richards .629 - Cap hit 5.75

Lucic .606 - Cap hit 4.08

Callahan .593 - Cap hit 4.275

Horton .589 - Cap hit 4.00

Selanne .583 - Cap hit 4.5

Richards .576 - Cap hit 6.66

Heatley .571 - Cap hit 7.5

Gaborik .542 - Cap hit 7.5

Note - I was wrong about Hossa and Sharp, I didn't notice how many games they missed initially, Hossa has 23 pts in 28 games and Sharp has 18 in 24 vs Franzen's 20 in 29.

Its always odd to me when I see people calling for trading or in some cases buying out Franzen with the idea being to replace him with one of the many players that produce less than he does. Especially when all but Brown make more than him, and that's only going to last until next season when Brown will be extended at a far higher pay grade. Brunner, by far though, is the bargain of the group.

It makes no sense that Franzen gets the criticism he does. He isn't perfect, but he's a good deal for what he's paid.

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The Red Wings on the other hand are the NHLs synonym for constantly competing at the highest level.

That combined with the close standings and the fact that because of the CBA some Top 6 Players will most likely be available for free this summer it would be very stupid to make a desperate move and give away our future for a player you can get for nothing this summer.

Do you really believe that the Wings have been competing at the highest level the last 2-3 years? I guess I don't equate making the playoffs as competing at the "highest level".

And, I'm not sure why everyone thinks there are going to be a bunch of FA players next summer. Teams aren't going to get rid of their best players in a cap crunch. Most of the decent UFAs will certainly be re-signed before free agency. It's a pretty weak year especially with Getzlaf and Perry already signed.

esteef likes this

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It makes no sense that Franzen gets the criticism he does. He isn't perfect, but he's a good deal for what he's paid.

He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

F.Michael and MDCard like this

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Positive voice? I would give it to you if you said that the opinions you tend to express about the Wings tend to be optimistic, but your method of expressing your thoughts and opinions is anything but positive. To be completely honest, one of the biggest reasons I have a hard time taking most of your posts seriously is because I can't tell if you're truly just trying to be an optimistic fan or if you're someone who just likes to stir the pot. Maybe it's a fine line to you; maybe you're just jaded by the polarized hysteria that tends to rule most internet fan forums. You may be genuinely optimistic and content with the way this team is run and the general state of things, but you post like you're getting a kick out of beating people with a "2X4 of Optimism." And again, perhaps this happens because you're just jaded, and to be clear, I can certainly understand that and in this case, I think the state of being jaded by internet message forums is a very sane and utterly reasonable response. Whether your optimistic thoughts or opinions are valid and genuine or not, they rarely sound like they're coming from one who is a "positive voice."

So if you're just trying to stir the pot, well, good job. You stir the pot very well. But if you actually are seeking to discuss your real thoughts and opinions in a manner that might cause those thoughts to be well-received by others, you need to rethink the way you're expressing yourself.

By "positive," I do mean optimistic. I'm well aware that I can be very caustic, often unnecessarily so.

Rest assured that I've never been one to stir the pot for its own sake, and I certainly don't do so here.

He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

He produces well for what he costs.

Edited by Crymson
Jesusberg likes this

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By "positive," I do mean optimistic. I'm well aware that I can be very caustic, often unnecessarily so.

Rest assured that I've never been one to stir the pot for its own sake, and I certainly don't do so here.

He produces well for what he costs.

Well thank goodness he's signed at that price for the rest of his productive career, then.

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He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

Now on this we're 100% in agreement.

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He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

And yet despite all those perceived short comings he produces better than guys making almost twice his cap hit.

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And yet despite all those perceived short comings he produces better than guys making almost twice his cap hit.

Perceived? Name me one time where you looked at Franzen on the ice and said, "Wow, that guy's really skating hard."

Produces...when? When he feels like it? Sorry, not good enough in today's league.

Parise makes more than twice his cap hit. Ten times the player Franzen is.

Kesler makes more. Twenty times the player Franzen is.

Edited by DetroitRedWings1993

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Perceived? Name me one time where you looked at Franzen on the ice and said, "Wow, that guy's really skating hard."

Produces...when? When he feels like it? Sorry, not good enough in today's league.

Parise makes more than twice his cap hit. Ten times the player Franzen is.

Kesler makes more. Twenty times the player Franzen is.

don't you compare Kesler to anyone on our roster... he is scum

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don't you compare Kesler to anyone on our roster... he is scum

Scum that skates hard, forechecks, hits, fights, leads, and scores goals? I may not approve of some of the things he does, but he's so much better than Fil it's not even funny.

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And yet despite all those perceived short comings he produces better than guys making almost twice his cap hit.

Do you even watch the games? When does he work to get a goal? Notice he only score when it falls into his lap. Z and dats have to set him up its then only way he gets his points.

Not to mention that's the ONLY thing he does. He doesn't contribute in any other way shape or form.

I understand the argument that people have that support him I really do. And yea you can make a case saying he is worth it right now maybe even next year. But do you really think he will be three years from now or longer?

If he actually contributed in others ways...hitting, backcheck/defense etc etc he could be what bertuzzi use to be without a doubt. He just doesn't have the heart nor the balls to do. Ive never seen a more scared heartless person in my life. And the goals and assist he does get have very little to do with anything with him.

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Perceived? Name me one time where you looked at Franzen on the ice and said, "Wow, that guy's really skating hard."

Produces...when? When he feels like it? Sorry, not good enough in today's league.

Parise makes more than twice his cap hit. Ten times the player Franzen is.

Kesler makes more. Twenty times the player Franzen is.

I just showed you the stats a few posts ago. This season Franzen has produced more than Iginla, Carter, Brown, Richards, Lucic, Callahan, Horton, Selanne, Richards, Heatley and Gaborik,

The longest stretch he's gone without a pt is 6 games and that was when he was battling a hip flexor and playing hurt. Outside of that the longest he went without a pt is 2 games.

That is consistent production.

Not only that Franzen being back in the line-up is directly responsible for Abdelkader and Datsyuk's line breaking out of their funk. He's been a massive upgrade over Cleary, he forces defenders to cover more than just Datsyuk and he's been the primary assist getter on most of their goals since his return.

The last half of your post is so utterly ridiculous that its difficult to respond to.

It seems you are as guilty of overrating Kesler as you are at underrating Franzen and even more so Parise. If you think Kesler is 10 times the player Parise is, you should back away from the keyboard now.

Parise is by far the best player of the 3, but he gets paid twice what Franzen does for an extra 3 or 4 pts so far this season. Kesler hasn't been able to stay healthy and is a -4 on a team full of plusses.

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I just showed you the stats a few posts ago. This season Franzen has produced more than Iginla, Carter, Brown, Richards, Lucic, Callahan, Horton, Selanne, Richards, Heatley and Gaborik,

The longest stretch he's gone without a pt is 6 games and that was when he was battling a hip flexor and playing hurt. Outside of that the longest he went without a pt is 2 games.

That is consistent production.

Not only that Franzen being back in the line-up is directly responsible for Abdelkader and Datsyuk's line breaking out of their funk. He's been a massive upgrade over Cleary, he forces defenders to cover more than just Datsyuk and he's been the primary assist getter on most of their goals since his return.

The last half of your post is so utterly ridiculous that its difficult to respond to.

It seems you are as guilty of overrating Kesler as you are at underrating Franzen and even more so Parise. If you think Kesler is 10 times the player Parise is, you should back away from the keyboard now.

Parise is by far the best player of the 3, but he gets paid twice what Franzen does for an extra 3 or 4 pts so far this season. Kesler hasn't been able to stay healthy and is a -4 on a team full of plusses.

You're suggesting that Franzen is anywhere close to Kesler and Parise and I need to back away from the keyboard.

Utterly ridiculous? No, what you just suggested is utterly ridiculous.

The only thing worse than a Holland apologist is a Franzen apologist.

You need to be medicated for this nonsense. Franzen is a gutless softie who has only put up the goals he's managed to because of the centers he's played with. When Datsyuk is on the ice, why pay attention to one of the biggest underachievers in hockey? He better put up some goals with those circumstances.

Edited by DetroitRedWings1993

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