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DetroitRedWings1993

An interesting point about our apparent deadline strategy

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Franzen has his place on this team, he's a good value for his production.

But I completely understand the frustration, the guy has all the talent, skating ability and size to just be an absolutely stud. Instead he is just a good to very good player. I just really can't get over the fact that Babcock had to call him out, on coming to play everyday. And this is a guy that's in his prime on a 11 year deal. It's scary to think about what might happen in a few years.

Right now he's worth his salary, but if he ever loses a step, he hasn't shown the propensity to be a grinder and really use his body effectively, which is something that can hurt the team when they are paying him 4 million a year for 10 goals and a bottom 6 role. So I can understand the thought process for trying to get value for him now, while he's still worth something.

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Do you even watch the games? When does he work to get a goal? Notice he only score when it falls into his lap. Z and dats have to set him up its then only way he gets his points.

Not to mention that's the ONLY thing he does. He doesn't contribute in any other way shape or form.

I understand the argument that people have that support him I really do. And yea you can make a case saying he is worth it right now maybe even next year. But do you really think he will be three years from now or longer?

If he actually contributed in others ways...hitting, backcheck/defense etc etc he could be what bertuzzi use to be without a doubt. He just doesn't have the heart nor the balls to do. Ive never seen a more scared heartless person in my life. And the goals and assist he does get have very little to do with anything with him.

He's a product of the centers he's played with. He's been spoiled.

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I just showed you the stats a few posts ago. This season Franzen has produced more than Iginla, Carter, Brown, Richards, Lucic, Callahan, Horton, Selanne, Richards, Heatley and Gaborik,

The longest stretch he's gone without a pt is 6 games and that was when he was battling a hip flexor and playing hurt. Outside of that the longest he went without a pt is 2 games.

That is consistent production.

Not only that Franzen being back in the line-up is directly responsible for Abdelkader and Datsyuk's line breaking out of their funk. He's been a massive upgrade over Cleary, he forces defenders to cover more than just Datsyuk and he's been the primary assist getter on most of their goals since his return.

The last half of your post is so utterly ridiculous that its difficult to respond to.

It seems you are as guilty of overrating Kesler as you are at underrating Franzen and even more so Parise. If you think Kesler is 10 times the player Parise is, you should back away from the keyboard now.

Parise is by far the best player of the 3, but he gets paid twice what Franzen does for an extra 3 or 4 pts so far this season. Kesler hasn't been able to stay healthy and is a -4 on a team full of plusses.

Some of the people you're addressing consider a player who doesn't give 100% all the time to be completely worthless, so you'll hear a lot of Franzen bashing. I personally think that the guy just often lacks confidence.

You're suggesting that Franzen is anywhere close to Kesler and Parise and I need to back away from the keyboard.

Utterly ridiculous? No, what you just suggested is utterly ridiculous.

The only thing worse than a Holland apologist is a Franzen apologist.

You need to be medicated for this nonsense. Franzen is a gutless softie who has only put up the goals he's managed to because of the centers he's played with. When Datsyuk is on the ice, why pay attention to one of the biggest underachievers in hockey? He better put up some goals with those circumstances.

Do you really expect him to respond to this? I can be very caustic, but even I haven't suggested that someone is psychotic.

Franzen produces at a respectable rate for his salary.

Edited by Crymson

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Do you even watch the games? When does he work to get a goal? Notice he only score when it falls into his lap. Z and dats have to set him up its then only way he gets his points.

Not to mention that's the ONLY thing he does. He doesn't contribute in any other way shape or form.

I understand the argument that people have that support him I really do. And yea you can make a case saying he is worth it right now maybe even next year. But do you really think he will be three years from now or longer?

If he actually contributed in others ways...hitting, backcheck/defense etc etc he could be what bertuzzi use to be without a doubt. He just doesn't have the heart nor the balls to do. Ive never seen a more scared heartless person in my life. And the goals and assist he does get have very little to do with anything with him.

I'm starting to wonder if you guys are actually watching them. Franzen has more assists than goals this season and most of his assists are of the primary variety. He is also 3rd on the team in +/- behind only Datsyuk and Kindl, so he hasn't been any kind of a defensive liability either.

I don't have to make a case that he's worth his contract right now, its an absolute fact that he's worth his contract right now, but you might be right about that not being the case 3 or 4 years down the road.

This is why I call it a perceived problem with Franzen, in reality he is 6th among our forwards in hits, and 1st among our top 6 forwards. In blocked shots he's 5th among our forwards and 2nd in the top 6 behind Datsyuk who has an advantage as a penalty killer. Of our top 6 forwards which one do you think is on the ice for the fewest goals against...That would be Franzen, which player do you think has faced the highest quality of competition on the team...Franzen again.

But Franzen haters don't care about #'s and stats, they fly in the face of the conclusions they've already formed and continue to cling to despite evidence to the contrary.

I'll leave it at this, If those numbers I just provided are the production of a guy who is gutless, heartless, soft, and continually floating then when playing at full effort he must be a perennial Hart, Selke, Art Ross, and Maurice Richard Trophy favorite.

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...

We mocked "core" concept a few years back...but i am now thinking we were wrong on this. ...

The "new NHL" in the cap era is not about "loyalty to older guys" ...

I totally disagree with the let them "ripen" concept. ... But we have management who continually think that signing guys like Bert, Sammy, Cola, and Cleary is the right strategy when we have guys like Andersson, Tatar, Lashoff, and Nyquist wasting away in the minors. ... we are gonna be stuck in mediocre hell.

(I pared down the quoted post to try to keep the length manageable. I'm not trying to take anything out of context...)

The "core" concept was mocked largely due to bitterness, and it was fans doing the mocking rather than management. However, I don't know that those doing the mocking were as wrong as you think. Remember, Chicago has had their struggles the last two years. They finished behind us in the standings both seasons and haven't won a playoff series since their Cup. And that's with their core players still improving while ours have been aging. They're doing well this year largely due to the contributions from the players they brought in to replace the depth they lost from their Cup team. And they could be facing another cap crunch next year, and then again in a couple more years when Toews and Kane are up for renewal.

People make too much of both the "loyalty" and "over-ripen" philosophies. Typically, when we've signed older players, it's because they've made valuable contributions at a good price. Cleary was signed 5 years ago, he was a good role-player the first three years, and even this year he hasn't been nearly as bad as some think. Bert's been good up until this year. Sammy and Cola were only signed this year, and unfortunately they haven't played much. That's not "continually". That's one summer of moves, moves that we've typically had good success with, that all happened to fall flat due to injuries. If we gave $7.5M to one star, and that star got injured, we'd be in the same place. Besides that, there was one star forward available and we tried to sign him.

Over-ripening isn't so much a philosophy as it has been an affordable luxury combined with a lack of really good prospects. None of Andersson, Tatar, Nyquist, or Lashoff have been great, or even particularly good really. Nor has Smith, for that matter. Andersson and Lashoff have exceeded expectations, but expectations were pretty much nothing so that's not saying much. A nice surprise, and that's it. It's not like we signed Quincey and Cola instead of Suter (or anyone else) because we didn't want to give Lashoff a shot, and we needed to save money. The same is true for the forwards. We had money to spend for a star, but none was available. Maybe we could have traded for one, but that's going to cost you. Say you trade Flip and Nyquist for a star forward... then it's nice to have options like Bert, Cleary, and Sammy. Don't have to rely on the kids, and if the kids do work out it gives you extra depth. We had plenty of cap space, and some decent trade flexibility. Nothing's happened yet, maybe nothing will happen, but it won't be because we're afraid of playing the kids or too attached to older guys.

I think people aslo have a distorted view of how soon most prospects make it to the NHL. There's about 60 rookies who have played 15 or more games this year. About half of them are 23 or older (or at least will turn 23 this year), another 10 or so will be at least 22. Almost all the rest are high 1st-round picks. Fact is, the vast majority of prospects take 4-5 years before becoming regular players in the NHL. It's not just a Red Wings thing, it's everyone.

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You're suggesting that Franzen is anywhere close to Kesler and Parise and I need to back away from the keyboard.

Utterly ridiculous? No, what you just suggested is utterly ridiculous.

The only thing worse than a Holland apologist is a Franzen apologist.

You need to be medicated for this nonsense. Franzen is a gutless softie who has only put up the goals he's managed to because of the centers he's played with. When Datsyuk is on the ice, why pay attention to one of the biggest underachievers in hockey? He better put up some goals with those circumstances.

Strawman alert.

I didn't say Franzen was better than Parise, I actually clearly stated the opposite.

However I did point out with facts that Franzen has provided more value for his cap hit than Parise or Kesler this season.

I told you to step back from the Keyboard for stating that Kesler is 10 times the player PARISE is not Franzen.

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I'm starting to wonder if you guys are actually watching them. Franzen has more assists than goals this season and most of his assists are of the primary variety. He is also 3rd on the team in +/- behind only Datsyuk and Kindl, so he hasn't been any kind of a defensive liability either.

I don't have to make a case that he's worth his contract right now, its an absolute fact that he's worth his contract right now, but you might be right about that not being the case 3 or 4 years down the road.

This is why I call it a perceived problem with Franzen, in reality he is 6th among our forwards in hits, and 1st among our top 6 forwards. In blocked shots he's 5th among our forwards and 2nd in the top 6 behind Datsyuk who has an advantage as a penalty killer. Of our top 6 forwards which one do you think is on the ice for the fewest goals against...That would be Franzen, which player do you think has faced the highest quality of competition on the team...Franzen again.

But Franzen haters don't care about #'s and stats, they fly in the face of the conclusions they've already formed and continue to cling to despite evidence to the contrary.

I'll leave it at this, If those numbers I just provided are the production of a guy who is gutless, heartless, soft, and continually floating then when playing at full effort he must be a perennial Hart, Selke, Art Ross, and Maurice Richard Trophy favorite.

I watch him "float" and all I really see is a guy not expending all of his energy when unnecessary, it is this conservative style of play that allows me to believe he will be able to play at a high level for a long period of time. I am not sure who around here thinks Hudler is just as good as Franzen, but they must, because huds played played in the top 6 and was fed many gifts as goals, and still couldn't come close to being the player franzen is currently. Franzen is very much underrated on these boards, and I often see him showing emotion, whether it be after the whistle or not. anyways I am going to bed, I have said my piece, so if anyone feels like arguing it, they won't get a response lol

Edited by Euro_Twins
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If anyone here believes Twitter, Dave Waddell and George Malik, do yourself a favor and sleep through the rest of today and all of Wednesday.

I saw a very interesting comment on one of Malik's blog posts today. Not only that, but I totally agree with it.

From PaulInMiamiBeach:

I’m so sick of this “you can’t fix it all at once, so don’t fix any of it at all” attitude. That is a recipe for failure.

He hit it right on the head for me.

Not only that, but I believe it was kipwinger who shared pretty much the same sentiment. Doing nothing makes us just as worse as making a bad deal does. This team is full of bad deals. Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammuelsson, Quincey, Colaiacovo, Gustavsson, the list goes on. If we emerge from this trade deadline the same team, this team is going nowhere. Not even to the playoffs. Nowhere. But, we already knew that, didn't we?

This season wasn't always a "rebuilding/transitional" year. Off the topic, but transitioning to what? Mediocrity? Becoming an awful team for several decades? What's the end result? It honestly frightens me to think about it. Anyways, this season only became such when the team failed to do much of anything in free agency. At that point, management cut off their own collective manhood, threw their hands in the air, and gave up. At least, that's the way I see it.

Also, I'd like to address some ridiculous and false optimism. People cite the lowering of the cap next season and say how many great players will be available because of cap-compliance buyouts.

Sorry, but that's the biggest crock on Earth.

Do people really think that quality players will be bought out?

That's hilarious. No one is going to buy out key pieces, people. Certainly not a top-6 scoring forward who can consistently score goals. That's the reality of it. People think all these players are going to fall right into our lap.

Not only that, but wasn't that the mantra last summer? See how that turned out.

So, by all means Kenny, do nothing. I just hope your prepared for another firestorm from everyone around you afterwards. I would've thought you'd be sick of that already.

Our prospects aren't nearly as good as everyone seems to think. I've seen Tatar and Nyquist...and I'm not impressed. They've fallen victim to scouting. Teams know them, and I'd say that's about it for them. Our farm system is almost entirely boom-or-bust. See the dramatic peaks and valleys of a lot of their past performances. Jarnkrok and Pulkinnen, especially.

So, I guess tomorrow's a waste of time. Great. It'll be fun watching this team spiral out of control and crash in a flaming heap outside the playoff window.

:shout: Geeze dude, pull it together. We are in the playoff race right now with a team who has been severely injured this year. This whining is getting out of control.

I just want them to do something. But, they won't. I can guarantee this team misses the playoffs without an addition or two.

That makes NO sense. How can you guarantee this? We have been in the top 8 of the western conference for a majority of the season. What makes you so sure we are just going to bomb our way out of the playoffs? It seems more like you are being a baby about not making a trade. I'm all for a trade if it makes the team better. But I get the feeling there are not a lot of those out there, especially this year. We will more likely then not make the playoffs.

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Not surprised and don't care. The Wings have everything a team needs right now. Granted that's when they are 100% healthy.

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Not surprised and don't care. The Wings have everything a team needs right now. Granted that's when they are 100% healthy.

Ya I agree!! Our superstar in cleary is a beast. Wait until or 50 goal a year in Bert, Sammy, and helm are back. Also this just in. Lids is coming back if we make the playoffs. We have every a team needs and he wants another cup.

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Not surprised and don't care. The Wings have everything a team needs right now. Granted that's when they are 100% healthy.

I guess those needs depend on what you want your team to do. Do we have a goal scorer? Last time someone reached over 30 goals on the Red Wings was 2008-09 when we had 4 guys reach over 30 and one had over 40. In my opinion right now we do not have everything a team needs.

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Well this should indicate I don't need to watch any sports tickers tomorrow....

"Ken Holland says Red Wings Fans Shouldn't Expect Trades"

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130403/SPORTS0103/304030306/1128/rss16?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Not surprised and don't care. The Wings have everything a team needs right now. Granted that's when they are 100% healthy.

This is stupid. At the very least, the Wings could be picking up some draft picks.

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If Flip walks at the end of the year, Holland should be fired for not getting something for him if he doesn't think he will re-sign. If we aren't going to do anything, might as well make sure he will re-sign for cheaper than 5 million.

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I wouldnt put to much expectation on Holland making a trade or making good trades. In my opinion his strength is in resigning players and playing the FA market. Look at his history. He doesnt really make any "good trades" or he gets fleeced ( hello 1st round pick for Quincey). Everything else is just spare parts for late picks types of trades. Just off hand the last decade what trade has he made that could be considered a good trade? I can only think Stuart. Before that maybe Lang? So just two in the last 10 years almost.

In my opinion if he comes down to trading Flip or paying him 5 million then Holland is going to pay him 5 million. I dont think he likes taking the risk of trades. Especially with roster players I mean hes giving Samuelsson 3 million a year to continually play 1 game and then get hurt and sit for multiple weeks so why wont he give Flip 5+ million to underperform this season.

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Franzen has been fine this year. When he starts to go off for 2 or 3 goals then the whiners will stop.

Franzen is on pace for 10 goals this season...For a 82 game season he'd be on pace for 20 to 22 goals...So far IMHO Franzen has been far - far away from "fine".

When exactly will he start ripping off 2 plus goals per game?..From what I can tell those days are over.

EDIT - As Nightfall rightfully pointed out below - Franzen has missed several games this shortened season due to injury...If taken that into account we could potentially add several more points (2 to 3 more goals, 3 to 4 more assists).

Edited by F.Michael
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Franzen is on pace for 10 goals this season...For a 82 game season he'd be on pace for 20 to 22 goals...So far IMHO Franzen has been far - far away from "fine".

When exactly will he start ripping off 2 plus goals per game?..From what I can tell those days are over.

Considering he sat out 20% of the games with injury, you taking that into effect? Being as that you said 82 games, I would suppose not.

Still 20 points in 29 games is nothing to sneeze at. Especially for his cap hit.

Edited by Nightfall

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Considering he sat out 20% of the games with injury, you taking that into effect? Being as that you said 82 games, I would suppose not.

Still 20 points in 29 games is nothing to sneeze at. Especially for his cap hit.

Not meaning to bash you, but when people use the phrase "not a bad value for his cap hit" is a sign that the player in question is under-performing as we see in Franzen these past few seasons.

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Franzen has been fine this year. When he starts to go off for 2 or 3 goals then the whiners will stop.

The only problem I have with Franzen is that he doesn't hustle that much. He's good on the cycle, but a lot of the time he takes a really lame bad angle shot when he has one of the best shots in the league. Every time he goes to the slot, he scores. He just doesn't go to the slot often. Watch every PP goal he has this year. Slot - one-timer - back of the net.

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If Flip walks at the end of the year, Holland should be fired for not getting something for him if he doesn't think he will re-sign. If we aren't going to do anything, might as well make sure he will re-sign for cheaper than 5 million.

Holland should be fired regardless. He's a crappy GM that has conned a fanbase into thinking he's awesome, but he does jack every year.

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I've always been a huge Franzen defender and have grown totally weary of the Hossa vs. Franzen debate, but it's been really hard to defend Franzen this year. It's not even about the stats sheet. For a guy his size and with his shot and what not and to see how little he does. It's so frustrating watching him out there. There is no way he should not be the leading goal scorer on this team with all the PP time he gets and his talent. What's even worse is watching him fall down and STAY down. It takes him a good 30 seconds to get back on his feet. He's not a huge cap hit, but even still. He alone could easily propel the Wings into a solid playoff position and can carry the team on his shoulders, but more often than not, he's a total no show.

esteef and F.Michael like this

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If Flip walks at the end of the year, Holland should be fired for not getting something for him if he doesn't think he will re-sign. If we aren't going to do anything, might as well make sure he will re-sign for cheaper than 5 million.

Holland should be fired regardless. He's a crappy GM that has conned a fanbase into thinking he's awesome, but he does jack every year.

So, Ken Holland's job hinges on a second liner who cracked 60 pts once in his career. Got it.

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3.70GAA and 0.870% , are these the stats of a winner? possably not.

4 Stanley Cups in 15 years as sole GM are the stats of a winner.

Kenny may not be everyones cup of tea but he aint the worst GM out there.

I would say 97% of us knew he would more or less stand pat this year but we

still hold out hope that that blockbuster deal will happen for us. But its fun at

playing the GM role and moaning when 'our' cant lose deal doesn't happen.

On a positive note, we are starting to look pretty stacked at the back and a lot

bigger than in previous years. A couple of additions up front and we'll be there

or thereabouts for many years to come. Contender? not just yet but in 2-3 years

I can see us being a major force again.

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