Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

An interesting point about our apparent deadline strategy


  • Please log in to reply
113 replies to this topic

#61 FlashyG

FlashyG

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,162 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:31 PM

Brunner doesn't belong in your list just yet. Franzen....well... :-\


I didn't set the threshold to make the list, nor did I make the list, I just pointed out that based on their production both Franzen and Brunner are good enough to make it.

 

Here are the players I mentioned sorted by PPG, with their cap hits included.

 

Franzen       .690  - Cap hit 3.954

Iginla            .688 -  Cap hit 7.0 

Carter          .685 -  Cap hit 5.72

Brown          .657 -  Cap hit 3.175

Brunner       .629 -  Cap hit 1.35

Richards      .629 - Cap hit 5.75

Lucic            .606 - Cap hit 4.08

Callahan      .593 - Cap hit 4.275

Horton          .589 - Cap hit 4.00

Selanne       .583 - Cap hit 4.5

Richards       .576 - Cap hit 6.66

Heatley        .571 - Cap hit 7.5

Gaborik        .542 - Cap hit 7.5

 

Note - I was wrong about Hossa and Sharp, I didn't notice how many games they missed initially, Hossa has 23 pts in 28 games and Sharp has 18 in 24 vs Franzen's 20 in 29.

 

Its always odd to me when I see people calling for trading or in some cases buying out Franzen with the idea being to replace him with one of the many players that produce less than he does. Especially when all but Brown make more than him, and that's only going to last until next season when Brown will be extended at a far higher pay grade. Brunner, by far though, is the bargain of the group.



#62 derblaueClaus

derblaueClaus

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,180 posts
  • Location:Rotenburg (Wmme), Germany

Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:37 PM

Like it or not, that's how it is. KH & company have been able to maintain the team's momentum since the lockout better than any other team in the league, but the system is constantly working against them in this.

This. The whole system is made to prevent constant success. And if you take a look at other teams that were successful in the late 90s/early 00s most of them went through or are rebuilding. The Red Wings on the other hand are the NHLs synonym for constantly competing at the highest level. Thats what we are hated and admired for. And thats the great work of no one other than Mr. Holland and his team. So it maybe would be wise to have a little trust in him. 

 

Concerning the Trade-Deadline I repeat what I wrote in another Thread : Its simply an awful time to trade for the Wings as we are heading East. Teams in the East won't like trading with us because we will face them next Season, teams in the West won't like trading with us because we might meet them in the Playoffs. That combined with the close standings and the fact that because of the CBA some Top 6 Players will most likely be available for free this summer it would be very stupid to make a desperate move and give away our future for a player you can get for nothing this summer. 

 

So if Holland can make a move for a Top 6 Winger for a reasonable price (3rd or 4th or 5th-Roundpick, 2 prospects and/or 1 Rosterplayer) : Fine, go ahead. If not, its better to stay patient for the reasons stated above.


Edited by derblaueClaus, 02 April 2013 - 07:39 PM.

"I'd have my **** out if I scored four goals. Id have my **** out, stroking it." - "Jumbo" Joe Thornton

 

 

Monsterblue.jpg

 

Thanks MabusIncarnate


#63 Crymson

Crymson

    Ninjelephant

  • Gold Booster
  • 11,032 posts
  • Location:Denver, CO, USA

Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:58 PM


I didn't set the threshold to make the list, nor did I make the list, I just pointed out that based on their production both Franzen and Brunner are good enough to make it.

 

Here are the players I mentioned sorted by PPG, with their cap hits included.

 

Franzen       .690  - Cap hit 3.954

Iginla            .688 -  Cap hit 7.0 

Carter          .685 -  Cap hit 5.72

Brown          .657 -  Cap hit 3.175

Brunner       .629 -  Cap hit 1.35

Richards      .629 - Cap hit 5.75

Lucic            .606 - Cap hit 4.08

Callahan      .593 - Cap hit 4.275

Horton          .589 - Cap hit 4.00

Selanne       .583 - Cap hit 4.5

Richards       .576 - Cap hit 6.66

Heatley        .571 - Cap hit 7.5

Gaborik        .542 - Cap hit 7.5

 

Note - I was wrong about Hossa and Sharp, I didn't notice how many games they missed initially, Hossa has 23 pts in 28 games and Sharp has 18 in 24 vs Franzen's 20 in 29.

 

Its always odd to me when I see people calling for trading or in some cases buying out Franzen with the idea being to replace him with one of the many players that produce less than he does. Especially when all but Brown make more than him, and that's only going to last until next season when Brown will be extended at a far higher pay grade. Brunner, by far though, is the bargain of the group.

 

It makes no sense that Franzen gets the criticism he does. He isn't perfect, but he's a good deal for what he's paid.



#64 SuperCalaFilppulastic!

SuperCalaFilppulastic!

    Flippin' Awesome

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 391 posts
  • Location:Warren

Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:04 PM

The Red Wings on the other hand are the NHLs synonym for constantly competing at the highest level.

 

That combined with the close standings and the fact that because of the CBA some Top 6 Players will most likely be available for free this summer it would be very stupid to make a desperate move and give away our future for a player you can get for nothing this summer. 

 

Do you really believe that the Wings have been competing at the highest level the last 2-3 years? I guess I don't equate making the playoffs as competing at the "highest level".

 

And, I'm not sure why everyone thinks there are going to be a bunch of FA players next summer. Teams aren't going to get rid of their best players in a cap crunch. Most of the decent UFAs will certainly be re-signed before free agency. It's a pretty weak year especially with Getzlaf and Perry already signed.



Check out my Wings autographed card collection here!


#65 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

 
It makes no sense that Franzen gets the criticism he does. He isn't perfect, but he's a good deal for what he's paid.


He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#66 Crymson

Crymson

    Ninjelephant

  • Gold Booster
  • 11,032 posts
  • Location:Denver, CO, USA

Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:06 PM

Positive voice? I would give it to you if you said that the opinions you tend to express about the Wings tend to be optimistic, but your method of expressing your thoughts and opinions is anything but positive. To be completely honest, one of the biggest reasons I have a hard time taking most of your posts seriously is because I can't tell if you're truly just trying to be an optimistic fan or if you're someone who just likes to stir the pot. Maybe it's a fine line to you; maybe you're just jaded by the polarized hysteria that tends to rule most internet fan forums. You may be genuinely optimistic and content with the way this team is run and the general state of things, but you post like you're getting a kick out of beating people with a "2X4 of Optimism." And again, perhaps this happens because you're just jaded, and to be clear, I can certainly understand that and in this case, I think the state of being jaded by internet message forums is a very sane and utterly reasonable response. Whether your optimistic thoughts or opinions are valid and genuine or not, they rarely sound like they're coming from one who is a "positive voice."

 

So if you're just trying to stir the pot, well, good job. You stir the pot very well. But if you actually are seeking to discuss your real thoughts and opinions in a manner that might cause those thoughts to be well-received by others, you need to rethink the way you're expressing yourself.

 

By "positive," I do mean optimistic. I'm well aware that I can be very caustic, often unnecessarily so.

 

Rest assured that I've never been one to stir the pot for its own sake, and I certainly don't do so here.



He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

 

He produces well for what he costs.


Edited by Crymson, 02 April 2013 - 08:07 PM.


#67 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:11 PM

 
By "positive," I do mean optimistic. I'm well aware that I can be very caustic, often unnecessarily so.
 
Rest assured that I've never been one to stir the pot for its own sake, and I certainly don't do so here.


 
He produces well for what he costs.


Well thank goodness he's signed at that price for the rest of his productive career, then.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#68 F.Michael

F.Michael

    Old School Dynamic Duo

  • HoF Booster
  • 7,816 posts
  • Location:Wisconsin

Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:21 PM

He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

Now on this we're 100% in agreement.



'Evolution' created by Offsides

#69 FlashyG

FlashyG

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,162 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:08 PM

He has no heart. He floats through games and is maddeningly inconsistent. He plays soft and acts like a man half his size. There's so much he could be with his size and skill...but just isn't. And at this point, never will be.

 

And yet despite all those perceived short comings he produces better than guys making almost twice his cap hit.



#70 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:35 PM

And yet despite all those perceived short comings he produces better than guys making almost twice his cap hit.

Perceived?  Name me one time where you looked at Franzen on the ice and said, "Wow, that guy's really skating hard."

 

Produces...when?  When he feels like it?  Sorry, not good enough in today's league.

 

Parise makes more than twice his cap hit.  Ten times the player Franzen is.

 

Kesler makes more.  Twenty times the player Franzen is.


Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 02 April 2013 - 10:35 PM.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#71 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,143 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:51 PM

Perceived?  Name me one time where you looked at Franzen on the ice and said, "Wow, that guy's really skating hard."

 

Produces...when?  When he feels like it?  Sorry, not good enough in today's league.

 

Parise makes more than twice his cap hit.  Ten times the player Franzen is.

 

Kesler makes more.  Twenty times the player Franzen is.

 

don't you compare Kesler to anyone on our roster... he is scum



#72 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:53 PM

don't you compare Kesler to anyone on our roster... he is scum

Scum that skates hard, forechecks, hits, fights, leads, and scores goals?  I may not approve of some of the things he does, but he's so much better than Fil it's not even funny.


The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#73 DeGraa55

DeGraa55

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,130 posts

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:01 PM

 
And yet despite all those perceived short comings he produces better than guys making almost twice his cap hit.



Do you even watch the games? When does he work to get a goal? Notice he only score when it falls into his lap. Z and dats have to set him up its then only way he gets his points.

Not to mention that's the ONLY thing he does. He doesn't contribute in any other way shape or form.

I understand the argument that people have that support him I really do. And yea you can make a case saying he is worth it right now maybe even next year. But do you really think he will be three years from now or longer?

If he actually contributed in others ways...hitting, backcheck/defense etc etc he could be what bertuzzi use to be without a doubt. He just doesn't have the heart nor the balls to do. Ive never seen a more scared heartless person in my life. And the goals and assist he does get have very little to do with anything with him.

#74 FlashyG

FlashyG

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,162 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

Perceived?  Name me one time where you looked at Franzen on the ice and said, "Wow, that guy's really skating hard."

 

Produces...when?  When he feels like it?  Sorry, not good enough in today's league.

 

Parise makes more than twice his cap hit.  Ten times the player Franzen is.

 

Kesler makes more.  Twenty times the player Franzen is.

 

I just showed you the stats a few posts ago. This season Franzen has produced more than Iginla, Carter, Brown, Richards, Lucic, Callahan, Horton, Selanne, Richards, Heatley and Gaborik,

 

The longest stretch he's gone without a pt is 6 games and that was when he was battling a hip flexor and playing hurt. Outside of that the longest he went without a pt is 2 games.

That is consistent production.

 

Not only that Franzen being back in the line-up is directly responsible for Abdelkader and Datsyuk's line breaking out of their funk. He's been a massive upgrade over Cleary, he forces defenders to cover more than just Datsyuk and he's been the primary assist getter on most of their goals since his return.

 

The last half of your post is so utterly ridiculous that its difficult to respond to.

 

It seems you are as guilty of overrating Kesler as you are at underrating Franzen and even more so Parise. If you think Kesler is 10 times the player Parise is, you should back away from the keyboard now.

 

Parise is by far the best player of the 3, but he gets paid twice what Franzen does for an extra 3 or 4 pts so far this season. Kesler hasn't been able to stay healthy and is a -4 on a team full of plusses.



#75 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:16 PM

I just showed you the stats a few posts ago. This season Franzen has produced more than Iginla, Carter, Brown, Richards, Lucic, Callahan, Horton, Selanne, Richards, Heatley and Gaborik,

 

The longest stretch he's gone without a pt is 6 games and that was when he was battling a hip flexor and playing hurt. Outside of that the longest he went without a pt is 2 games.

That is consistent production.

 

Not only that Franzen being back in the line-up is directly responsible for Abdelkader and Datsyuk's line breaking out of their funk. He's been a massive upgrade over Cleary, he forces defenders to cover more than just Datsyuk and he's been the primary assist getter on most of their goals since his return.

 

The last half of your post is so utterly ridiculous that its difficult to respond to.

 

It seems you are as guilty of overrating Kesler as you are at underrating Franzen and even more so Parise. If you think Kesler is 10 times the player Parise is, you should back away from the keyboard now.

 

Parise is by far the best player of the 3, but he gets paid twice what Franzen does for an extra 3 or 4 pts so far this season. Kesler hasn't been able to stay healthy and is a -4 on a team full of plusses.

You're suggesting that Franzen is anywhere close to Kesler and Parise and I need to back away from the keyboard.

 

Utterly ridiculous?  No, what you just suggested is utterly ridiculous.

 

The only thing worse than a Holland apologist is a Franzen apologist.

 

You need to be medicated for this nonsense.  Franzen is a gutless softie who has only put up the goals he's managed to because of the centers he's played with.  When Datsyuk is on the ice, why pay attention to one of the biggest underachievers in hockey?  He better put up some goals with those circumstances.


Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 02 April 2013 - 11:20 PM.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#76 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,114 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:17 PM

Franzen has his place on this team, he's a good value for his production.

 

But I completely understand the frustration, the guy has all the talent, skating ability and size to just be an absolutely stud. Instead he is just a good to very good player. I just really can't get over the fact that Babcock had to call him out, on coming to play everyday. And this is a guy that's in his prime on a 11 year deal. It's scary to think about what might happen in a few years.

 

Right now he's worth his salary, but if he ever loses a step, he hasn't shown the propensity to be a grinder and really use his body effectively, which is something that can hurt the team when they are paying him 4 million a year for 10 goals and a bottom 6 role. So I can understand the thought process for trying to get value for him now, while he's still worth something.



#77 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:18 PM

Do you even watch the games? When does he work to get a goal? Notice he only score when it falls into his lap. Z and dats have to set him up its then only way he gets his points.

Not to mention that's the ONLY thing he does. He doesn't contribute in any other way shape or form.

I understand the argument that people have that support him I really do. And yea you can make a case saying he is worth it right now maybe even next year. But do you really think he will be three years from now or longer?

If he actually contributed in others ways...hitting, backcheck/defense etc etc he could be what bertuzzi use to be without a doubt. He just doesn't have the heart nor the balls to do. Ive never seen a more scared heartless person in my life. And the goals and assist he does get have very little to do with anything with him.

He's a product of the centers he's played with.  He's been spoiled.


The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#78 Crymson

Crymson

    Ninjelephant

  • Gold Booster
  • 11,032 posts
  • Location:Denver, CO, USA

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:28 PM

I just showed you the stats a few posts ago. This season Franzen has produced more than Iginla, Carter, Brown, Richards, Lucic, Callahan, Horton, Selanne, Richards, Heatley and Gaborik,

 

The longest stretch he's gone without a pt is 6 games and that was when he was battling a hip flexor and playing hurt. Outside of that the longest he went without a pt is 2 games.

That is consistent production.

 

Not only that Franzen being back in the line-up is directly responsible for Abdelkader and Datsyuk's line breaking out of their funk. He's been a massive upgrade over Cleary, he forces defenders to cover more than just Datsyuk and he's been the primary assist getter on most of their goals since his return.

 

The last half of your post is so utterly ridiculous that its difficult to respond to.

 

It seems you are as guilty of overrating Kesler as you are at underrating Franzen and even more so Parise. If you think Kesler is 10 times the player Parise is, you should back away from the keyboard now.

 

Parise is by far the best player of the 3, but he gets paid twice what Franzen does for an extra 3 or 4 pts so far this season. Kesler hasn't been able to stay healthy and is a -4 on a team full of plusses.

 

Some of the people you're addressing consider a player who doesn't give 100% all the time to be completely worthless, so you'll hear a lot of Franzen bashing. I personally think that the guy just often lacks confidence.



You're suggesting that Franzen is anywhere close to Kesler and Parise and I need to back away from the keyboard.

 

Utterly ridiculous?  No, what you just suggested is utterly ridiculous.

 

The only thing worse than a Holland apologist is a Franzen apologist.

 

You need to be medicated for this nonsense.  Franzen is a gutless softie who has only put up the goals he's managed to because of the centers he's played with.  When Datsyuk is on the ice, why pay attention to one of the biggest underachievers in hockey?  He better put up some goals with those circumstances.

 

Do you really expect him to respond to this? I can be very caustic, but even I haven't suggested that someone is psychotic.

 

Franzen produces at a respectable rate for his salary.


Edited by Crymson, 02 April 2013 - 11:29 PM.


#79 FlashyG

FlashyG

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,162 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:30 PM

Do you even watch the games? When does he work to get a goal? Notice he only score when it falls into his lap. Z and dats have to set him up its then only way he gets his points.

Not to mention that's the ONLY thing he does. He doesn't contribute in any other way shape or form.

I understand the argument that people have that support him I really do. And yea you can make a case saying he is worth it right now maybe even next year. But do you really think he will be three years from now or longer?

If he actually contributed in others ways...hitting, backcheck/defense etc etc he could be what bertuzzi use to be without a doubt. He just doesn't have the heart nor the balls to do. Ive never seen a more scared heartless person in my life. And the goals and assist he does get have very little to do with anything with him.

 

I'm starting to wonder if you guys are actually watching them. Franzen has more assists than goals this season and most of his assists are of the primary variety. He is also 3rd on the team in +/- behind only Datsyuk and Kindl, so he hasn't been any kind of a defensive liability either.

 

I don't have to make a case that he's worth his contract right now, its an absolute fact that he's worth his contract right now, but you might be right about that not being the case 3 or 4 years down the road. 

 

This is why I call it a perceived problem with Franzen, in reality he is 6th among our forwards in hits, and 1st among our top 6 forwards. In blocked shots he's 5th among our forwards and 2nd in the top 6 behind Datsyuk who has an advantage as a penalty killer. Of our top 6 forwards which one do you think is on the ice for the fewest goals against...That would be Franzen, which player do you think has faced the highest quality of competition on the team...Franzen again. 

 

But Franzen haters don't care about #'s and stats, they fly in the face of the conclusions they've already formed and continue to cling to despite evidence to the contrary.

 

I'll leave it at this, If those numbers I just provided are the production of a guy who is gutless, heartless, soft, and continually floating then when playing at full effort he must be a perennial Hart, Selke, Art Ross, and Maurice Richard Trophy favorite.



#80 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,989 posts

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:33 PM

...

We mocked "core" concept a few years back...but i am now thinking we were wrong on this.  ...

 

The "new NHL" in the cap era is not about "loyalty to older guys" ...

I totally disagree with the let them "ripen" concept.  ...  But we have management who continually think that signing guys like Bert, Sammy, Cola, and Cleary is the right strategy when we have guys like Andersson, Tatar, Lashoff, and Nyquist wasting away in the minors.  ...  we are gonna be stuck in mediocre hell.

(I pared down the quoted post to try to keep the length manageable. I'm not trying to take anything out of context...)

 

The "core" concept was mocked largely due to bitterness, and it was fans doing the mocking rather than management. However, I don't know that those doing the mocking were as wrong as you think. Remember, Chicago has had their struggles the last two years. They finished behind us in the standings both seasons and haven't won a playoff series since their Cup. And that's with their core players still improving while ours have been aging. They're doing well this year largely due to the contributions from the players they brought in to replace the depth they lost from their Cup team. And they could be facing another cap crunch next year, and then again in a couple more years when Toews and Kane are up for renewal.

 

People make too much of both the "loyalty" and "over-ripen" philosophies. Typically, when we've signed older players, it's because they've made valuable contributions at a good price. Cleary was signed 5 years ago, he was a good role-player the first three years, and even this year he hasn't been nearly as bad as some think. Bert's been good up until this year. Sammy and Cola were only signed this year, and unfortunately they haven't played much. That's not "continually". That's one summer of moves, moves that we've typically had good success with, that all happened to fall flat due to injuries. If we gave $7.5M to one star, and that star got injured, we'd be in the same place. Besides that, there was one star forward available and we tried to sign him.

 

Over-ripening isn't so much a philosophy as it has been an affordable luxury combined with a lack of really good prospects. None of Andersson, Tatar, Nyquist, or Lashoff have been great, or even particularly good really. Nor has Smith, for that matter. Andersson and Lashoff have exceeded expectations, but expectations were pretty much nothing so that's not saying much. A nice surprise, and that's it. It's not like we signed Quincey and Cola instead of Suter (or anyone else) because we didn't want to give Lashoff a shot, and we needed to save money. The same is true for the forwards. We had money to spend for a star, but none was available. Maybe we could have traded for one, but that's going to cost you. Say you trade Flip and Nyquist for a star forward... then it's nice to have options like Bert, Cleary, and Sammy. Don't have to rely on the kids, and if the kids do work out it gives you extra depth. We had plenty of cap space, and some decent trade flexibility. Nothing's happened yet, maybe nothing will happen, but it won't be because we're afraid of playing the kids or too attached to older guys.

 

I think people aslo have a distorted view of how soon most prospects make it to the NHL. There's about 60 rookies who have played 15 or more games this year. About half of them are 23 or older (or at least will turn 23 this year), another 10 or so will be at least 22. Almost all the rest are high 1st-round picks. Fact is, the vast majority of prospects take 4-5 years before becoming regular players in the NHL. It's not just a Red Wings thing, it's everyone.







Similar Topics Collapse

  Topic Forum Started By Stats Last Post Info

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users