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An interesting point about our apparent deadline strategy


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#101 GoalieManPat

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:45 AM

Considering he sat out 20% of the games with injury, you taking that into effect?  Being as that you said 82 games, I would suppose not.

 

Still 20 points in 29 games is nothing to sneeze at.  Especially for his cap hit.

 

The problem with Franzen is he brings nothing to the game other than scoring. So when hes not scoring hes almost useless. He doesnt hustle to put pressure, hes nowhere near a physical presence, and his defensive play is less than stellar. Despite his size and snarl the only thing frightened by Franzen is Kanes mouthguard. When you take his whole game into account Franzen is not worth his cap hit or term of contract.



#102 13dangledangle

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:39 AM

Perceived?  Name me one time where you looked at Franzen on the ice and said, "Wow, that guy's really skating hard."

 

Produces...when?  When he feels like it?  Sorry, not good enough in today's league.

 

Parise makes more than twice his cap hit.  Ten times the player Franzen is.

 

Kesler makes more.  Twenty times the player Franzen is.

 

  Huh?  Franzen is lazy and he sucks yes, but at 4 mil he has put up 20 points in 29 games, not good enough you say?  Parise is 10 times the player, last I checked he didn't have 200 goals, he has 15 and only 30 points.  Parise has also played in 35 games, 6 more then Franzen while playing an average of 3 minutes more a game.  Oh yeah and Parise is +9 and has a 10.9 shooting % while Mule is +8 and a 9.1 shooting %.

 

    I  will not respond about Kesler....


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#103 Dabura

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:51 AM

With the team we have, I'd take Parise over Franzen just about any day of the week. Guy's a mad-dog puck-hound. Very intense forechecker, very responsible defensively. Great leader.


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#104 13dangledangle

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:03 AM

With the team we have, I'd take Parise over Franzen just about any day of the week. Guy's a mad-dog puck-hound. Very intense forechecker, very responsible defensively. Great leader.

 

  I don't disagree but the question was about Franzen's production VS salary.  I do not know how you can ignore his numbers, I don't see Mule as a liability out there either, just appears to coast and not try too hard a lot...Well guess what it's a business and good numbers don't lie.


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#105 F.Michael

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:05 AM

  Huh?  Franzen is lazy and he sucks yes, but at 4 mil he has put up 20 points in 29 games, not good enough you say?  Parise is 10 times the player, last I checked he didn't have 200 goals, he has 15 and only 30 points.  Parise has also played in 35 games, 6 more then Franzen while playing an average of 3 minutes more a game.  Oh yeah and Parise is +9 and has a 10.9 shooting % while Mule is +8 and a 9.1 shooting %.

 

    I  will not respond about Kesler....

I understand the need to use player stats when comparing/arguing about any particular player - however watching Franzen float around for the most part of any game he's suited up to play in has gotten old.



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#106 beachwing

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:05 AM

Wings in playoffs = best coaching job
in Babs career.....the lost man games to injury
is staggering, incredible job by the staff to put a competitive team on the ice that included nervous
kids and broken and battered veterans and stars.

#107 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:16 AM

Wings in playoffs = best coaching job
in Babs career.....the lost man games to injury
is staggering, incredible job by the staff to put a competitive team on the ice that included nervous
kids and broken and battered veterans and stars.

 

Exactly, babs saw the dim light with this garbage dump of a team and really took on the challenge and has done very well so far with it. I unlike most people think with babs coaching we may have a real shot in the playoffs no matter who he ices



#108 RedWingAbner

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:00 PM

3.70GAA and 0.870% , are these the stats of a winner? possably not.

 

4 Stanley Cups in 15 years as sole GM are the stats of a winner.

 

Kenny may not be everyones cup of tea  but he aint the worst GM out there.

 

I would say 97% of us knew he would more or less stand pat this year but we

 

still hold out hope that that blockbuster deal will happen for us. But its fun at

 

playing the GM role and moaning when 'our' cant lose deal doesn't happen.

 

On a positive note, we are starting to look pretty stacked at the back and a lot

 

bigger than in previous years. A couple of additions up front and we'll be there

 

or thereabouts for many years to come. Contender? not just yet but in 2-3 years

 

I can see us being a major force again.

#1, he wasn't the GM in 1997.  He inherited that team and added Macoun + Mironov and won in 1998.  At best, I'd call that 1/10 "his" team.

 

In 2002, he went and got every player the Wings could've wanted via free agency.

 

In 2008, a team largely built on European, late-round Hakan Andersson-found talent won it.

 

Holland is the luckiest GM in sports b/c he doesn't do anything yet because of the team's success in spite of him, people like him.

 

How many times have we let a player walk for nothing, then brought him back as means to "improve" the team?  Kyle Quincey is the most recent, but he's done this with others as well.  How many times has a player be let go by KH to become something we could use?  Cap hit aside, Leino wasn't worth keeping for the year he went to Philly?  Shane Hnidy?  Kyle Quincey?  These aren't even "prospects" shipped out to bring in guys, which I argue for.  These are guys let go for nothing.

 

Holland sucks.  It is going to be the greatest day in the history of the Red Wings when he is no longer the GM.  He has convinced a formerly rabid fan base to accept mediocrity and complacency, and rather than buying it, there are some of us who realize that he's not the savior....he's an anchor.



#109 Carman

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:20 PM

He's traded

 

3/23/99 - Traded D Anders Eriksson + 1999 1st round pick (#23/Steve McCarthy) + 2001 1st round pick (#29/Adam Munro) to Chicago Blackhawks for D Chris Chelios

 

3/23/99 - Traded 1999 2nd round pick (#59/David Inman) + 2000 3rd round pick (#74/Igor Radulov) to New York Rangers for D Ulf Samuelsson

 

3/23/99 - Traded G Kevin Hodson + 1999 2nd round pick (#47/Sheldon Keefe) to Tampa Bay Lightning for LW Wendel Clark + 1999 6th round pick (#181/Kent McDonell)

 

6/30/01 - Traded LW Vyacheslav Kozlov + 2002 1st round pick (#30/Jim Slater) to Buffalo Sabres for G Dominik Hasek

 

7/9/01 - Traded D Aaron Ward to Carolina Hurricanes for 2002 2nd round pick (#58/Jiri Hudler)

 

6/22/02 - Traded 2003 3rd round pick (#98/Grigory Shafigulin) to Nashville Predators for 2002 3rd round pick (#95/Valtteri Filppula)

 

7/14/05 - Hired head coach Mike Babcock

 

6/24/06 - Traded 2006 1st round pick (#29/Chris Summers) + 2006 5th round pick (#152/Jordan Bendfeld) to Phoenix Coyotes for 2006 2nd round pick (#41/Cory Emmerton) + 2006 2nd round pick (#47/Shawn Matthias)

 

2/26/08 - Traded 2008 2nd round pick (#61/Peter Delmas) + 2009 4th round pick (#119/Ben Chiarot) to Los Angeles Kings for D Brad Stuart

 

6/24/09 - Traded 2009 1st round pick (#29/Ashton Carter) to Tampa Bay Lightning for 2009 2nd round pick (#32/Landon Ferraro) + 2009 3rd round pick (#75/Andrej Nestrasil)

 

11/11/09 - Claimed LW Drew Miller off waivers from Tampa Bay Lighting


2/6/10 - Traded LW Ville Leino to Philadelphia Flyers for D Ole-Kristian Tollefsen + 2011 5th round pick (#145/Mattias Backman)

 

6/24/11 - Traded 2011 1st round pick (#24/Matt Puempel) to Ottawa Senators for 2011 2nd round pick (#35/Tomas Jurco) + 2011 2nd round pick (#48/Xavier Ouellet)

 

Those are just some moves, credit to FissionFire's thread on HFboards. http://hfboards.hock...ad.php?t=576043

 

I would hardly say he's done nothing, made some very good hires, and kept the majority of good players in the organization, if you look at the players we've lost, vs. the player's we've gained it's not even close. It's been very positive, he's been very good about keeping good players(Howard, Kronwall), and letting players go(Hudler, Ritola, Leino etc.)

 

Sure he's not perfect, but man he is better than most GM's. Do you really want to risk a new guy, and be facing Feaster selling of the heart of your team for 26 year old goalies that have never came to North America?



#110 Crymson

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:21 PM

#1, he wasn't the GM in 1997.  He inherited that team and added Macoun + Mironov and won in 1998.  At best, I'd call that 1/10 "his" team.

 

In 2002, he went and got every player the Wings could've wanted via free agency.

 

In 2008, a team largely built on European, late-round Hakan Andersson-found talent won it.

 

Holland is the luckiest GM in sports b/c he doesn't do anything yet because of the team's success in spite of him, people like him.

 

How many times have we let a player walk for nothing, then brought him back as means to "improve" the team?  Kyle Quincey is the most recent, but he's done this with others as well.  How many times has a player be let go by KH to become something we could use?  Cap hit aside, Leino wasn't worth keeping for the year he went to Philly?  Shane Hnidy?  Kyle Quincey?  These aren't even "prospects" shipped out to bring in guys, which I argue for.  These are guys let go for nothing.

 

Holland sucks.  It is going to be the greatest day in the history of the Red Wings when he is no longer the GM.  He has convinced a formerly rabid fan base to accept mediocrity and complacency, and rather than buying it, there are some of us who realize that he's not the savior....he's an anchor.

 

So sorry, but I trust the opinion of the countless hockey analysts who call him one of the best in the business more than I trust yours.



#111 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:25 PM

#1, he wasn't the GM in 1997.  He inherited that team and added Macoun + Mironov and won in 1998.  At best, I'd call that 1/10 "his" team.

 

In 2002, he went and got every player the Wings could've wanted via free agency.

 

In 2008, a team largely built on European, late-round Hakan Andersson-found talent won it.

 

Holland is the luckiest GM in sports b/c he doesn't do anything yet because of the team's success in spite of him, people like him.

 

How many times have we let a player walk for nothing, then brought him back as means to "improve" the team?  Kyle Quincey is the most recent, but he's done this with others as well.  How many times has a player be let go by KH to become something we could use?  Cap hit aside, Leino wasn't worth keeping for the year he went to Philly?  Shane Hnidy?  Kyle Quincey?  These aren't even "prospects" shipped out to bring in guys, which I argue for.  These are guys let go for nothing.

 

Holland sucks.  It is going to be the greatest day in the history of the Red Wings when he is no longer the GM.  He has convinced a formerly rabid fan base to accept mediocrity and complacency, and rather than buying it, there are some of us who realize that he's not the savior....he's an anchor.

 

he was head of scouting for seven years before he became assistant gm for four years, then became gm. If Andersson is responsible for our 08 team, the kenny as head of scouting would be responsible for our 97 team



#112 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:39 PM

hey slow down buddy, I get the non man love for Kenny from you, but Im just stating what will be on his CV. And believe me 'luckiest GM' wont be on it that's a fact.

For your info, he was appointed joint GM with Scotty and Jim on the 3rd June 1994 and was made GM on the 18th July 1997, that makes it 1997 as far as I can work it out, I get the concept we had won the cup before his appointment, but he was GM in 1997.

2002 he went and got the best because back then we could in a un-capped era so he got luck again I take it?

2008 was based on Hakan drafting all the euro talent, that when all said and done is vetted by the other front office guys at draft day.

The Redwings aren't the only team that brings back former players after letting them go. So its not a unique trend on the Wings part.

I doubt the fan base have accepted mediocrity but they may have finally understood what the cap era is all about. I truly wish we were

in a position to trade for elite talent, but our own success has put us in the situation we are in now, not having the pieces to tempt other

teams without given up some of our stars in what would be a like for like trade. That isn't worth doing however you look at it.


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#113 Crymson

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:43 PM

Second, the reason non-contending teams are in that position is because they have a lack of "great players".  It's not common.  Not many great players with Buffalo or Florida.  We don't have too many here, either.  We're full of third and fourth-liners.  That was a mistake any way you slice it.
 

 

 

Because it's an absurd point, I'm finally going to address this. If you truly believe that there are never great players who play on mediocre teams, then I can only conclude that you neither pay attention to hockey now nor know much of anything about its past. I cannot even begin to list all of the excellent players who have played on non-playoff teams. You needn't look any further than Yzerman, for example. If you want newer examples, check out Toews and Kane, whose team missed the playoffs in their first season, or Crosby, whose Penguins were one of the worst teams in the league for his first season, or Ovechkin, who did not make the playoffs until his third season in the league. We can lengthen the list to include the likes of Martin St. Louis, whose worth season over the past ten years was a 61-point campaign (the rest range from 70-102), and whose team has nevertheless made the playoffs only five times during that span. Kopitar has made the playoffs in two of his six seasons. Ilya Kovalchuk only made the playoffs once in his six complete seasons with the Thrashers. I could go on and on about this, and I wouldn't even make a dent in this list. The point of all this is that your allegation is completely ridiculous.
 


Edited by Crymson, 04 April 2013 - 08:58 PM.


#114 Aznknight

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:58 PM

Franzen for his size should be intimidating. He has the ability to change a series yet he doesn't do it.
In my lifetime (not very long yet) there's only been four players I've seen who when they step on the ice the coach, the team on the bench and players on the ice pay attention to: datsyuk, ovie, jagr and bure.
Franzen has that capability but he doesn't use it. He can score, drag defense toward him, crash the net but instead he chooses to wait for dats to clear for him...unacceptable





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