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Holland retirement watch?


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#41 Richdg

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:34 AM

Holland didn't build our team for 97 and 98. Jimmy D did. Holland did a GREAT job maintaining that success for 10 years. it is the last 4 that we have begun to go downhill-which was to be expected, yet has done liitle to stop it. That is not ok. I am sorry, you don't rebuild by signing Sammy, Cola, resigning bert, etc..... I understand bringing in some fillers 1 year at a time, but 2 or 3 years? no way.

Do you all realize that if we resign our 3 UFA's and 2 RFA's: Howard, Brunner, Fillpula, Smith and Kindl, our roster is full and doesnt not include tatar, Nyquist, or Sheahan. How is that rebuilding? Look at the 2013/2014 roster:

 

Forwards: bert, Datsyuk, Abby, Franzen, Z, Sammy, Andersson, Filppula, Brunner, Eaves, Helm, TooToo, and Emmerton. That is 13.

 

Dmen: Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Kindl, Lashoff, dekeyser, Q, and Cola. That is 8.

 

G's: Howard and Gus. That is 2.

 

That makes 23 players and no real cap room left. 8 of the 13 forwards are over 30. Young guys like Nyquist, tatar, and Sheahan will start in GR. Again.

Granted we have 2 amnesty buyouts-which I am sure will be used on cheap guys in their final years, not guys signed untill they are 40+ years old like Franzen. yes trades could be made, but if the price is to high.... We could sign a UFA or 2, but we don't have cap room. The flip side of course is after next season we have a bunch of UFA's that could/should leave: datsyuk, bert, sammy, Cola, eaves, ericsson and maybe 1 or 2 more.

 

The point of this post and the thought behind the thread is, we have a lot of work to do. We need a GM that is active, not passive. After being at the helm for 15+ years, not sure Holland is willing to do it anymore. Which again brings me back to the question of why? Being the GM of a high profile/successful franchise like the RW's is VERY stressful. Thus the thought, maybe he is going to retire?



Somehow richdg came across as offensive and ZforC came across as sarcastic. I just have to laugh at that for a moment. 

 

Unfortunately, seeing as I only REALLY started watching hockey in 2000 as a Leaf fan, knowing that Jimmy D was the GM is not something that has stuck in my head. Wasn't until summer of '02 when I came here with the Cujo acquisition that I knew much about the Wings. Cut the new fans some slack, we don't all do research on this team before we start to enjoy their play. 

First, welcome to the Wings! Second, wasn't talking to you. was talking to someone with over 1100 posts on this forum and either is confused or a fool.



#42 RedWingsDad

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:49 AM

What comment was that?

 

Jimmy D basically stated that the owners are in charge of their own teams in relation to the lockout. He equated himself, the players, and essentially all employees of the owners as cattle on a farm... and equated the NHL teams owners as those who run the farm. Since he included himself as part of the cattle, it obviously wasn't meant to be a slur against the players... but a simple analogy. Many members of this board seized upon the statement as evidence that the players (and themselves) were victims of the arrogant owners.

 

Beyond that, and in light of all the general hatefulness and slurs being directed towards Bettman during the lockout, Jimmy D also made statements in Bettman's defense. This also made him a target for anti Bettman/owner, pro NHLPA members on this board... of which there are quite a few apparently, based on the reactions I observed. 

 

I don't think Jimmy D's comments embarrassed the Red Wings organization or were embarrassing in general, but he had to be fined for his statements because league owners (and staff) were not supposed to make public comments about the lockout.


Edited by RedWingsDad, 04 April 2013 - 12:30 PM.

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#43 mjtm77

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:05 PM

This is wrong. Well kinda. Are we rebuilding? if so, then why hang onto guys that are going to be gone soon? Example A. White. UFA after this year. Not coming back. No room for him to be honest. Move him for an extra pick. More prospects. Example B, Colavacio-see Example A. Example C Cleary. example D Miller. Example E franzen. Example F Filppula. Example G Sammy. All could have been moved thus freeing up cap room and gathering more picks to rebuild faster.

Oh you mean you wanted some players? McBain would have ben nice. 25 year old RH shooting Dman. Would have fit in perfectly with Smith, Kindl, lashoff, and dekeyser. Courturier is another. 20 year old future #1 C, something we don't have.

Now I could go on and on about that, and many have. but that wasn't the point of this thread. fact: Holland did nothing. Nothing good nor bad. Nothing to gear up for one last run, and speed up the rebuilding process. The question is why? Does he really believe we will be better by doing nothing? if so, then what do we need him around for? I guess we have all the layers we will ever need. trueth is, no team in any sport is EVER a finished product. You are always changing and trying to improve. We didn't. So again, I ask why? There is only 1 explaination that makes sense. he is done.

uhh. holland wants to stay competive for a long period of time. he wants the winsg to always be competive. That is the reason why he did not give up some of the future of our team to improve it right now. Fact is if we are good enough to compete then we dont need to toss away the future. I would have agreed with all of you guys if this was 3 years ago back when we had lids and we were a favorite to win every year. Thing is it is not. I wish holland would have improved the team then to give us a better shot at winning, but he didnt. If he didnt do it then hes not gunna do it now.  Also Holland has mention he does all of his work in the offseaon, not in the middle of the hockey season. and there is sense to that. So get over him not moving anyone. Also with the work Holland did in the offeason and the team he constructed none of you guys would have thought we would be as competive as we are. I mean our team  looked like s*** so how bout stop hammering on holland for being a s***ty gm. He knows allot more then most of you guys.  I get that a change of voive and direction would be good, but that does not mean you can hammer holland. He has done fine.


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#44 frankgrimes

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:16 PM

First, welcome to the Wings! Second, wasn't talking to you. was talking to someone with over 1100 posts on this forum and either is confused or a fool.

 

Last time I've heard the Penguins bandwagon still isn't full, so I am sure the "I'll trade the farm for everyone" superb GM Shero has a place for some people. Have fun.

 

Mentioning what Holland didn't do while also forgetting what he did (leading this team succesfully in the communism also known as CBA era) of the league, tons of other GMs failed to do so.

 

Holland also came out and stated, that the Wings might not make the playoffs this season, at least at that point it should have been clear what the direction (*hint* big picture/longterm success) of this franchise would be going into the season including trade-deadline. I know it is hard to figure out for armchair-GMs.


Edited by frankgrimes, 04 April 2013 - 01:17 PM.

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#45 Richdg

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:22 PM

uhh. holland wants to stay competive for a long period of time. he wants the winsg to always be competive. That is the reason why he did not give up some of the future of our team to improve it right now. Fact is if we are good enough to compete then we dont need to toss away the future. I would have agreed with all of you guys if this was 3 years ago back when we had lids and we were a favorite to win every year. Thing is it is not. I wish holland would have improved the team then to give us a better shot at winning, but he didnt. If he didnt do it then hes not gunna do it now.  Also Holland has mention he does all of his work in the offseaon, not in the middle of the hockey season. and there is sense to that. So get over him not moving anyone. Also with the work Holland did in the offeason and the team he constructed none of you guys would have thought we would be as competive as we are. I mean our team  looked like s*** so how bout stop hammering on holland for being a s***ty gm. He knows allot more then most of you guys.  I get that a change of voive and direction would be good, but that does not mean you can hammer holland. He has done fine.

Yes, in the past he has done fine. In fact great! lately not so much. As for the future, no one I mean no one knows what that holds. at best 1 out of 5 prospects ever amount to anything. To expect all of them to make it will not happen. take the group of Andersson, Sheahan, Nyquist, tatar, and janarock. I will bet you whatever that no more than 1 makes it. That is the history of sports. Go look att he NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB etc..... Over here in GR, the Whitecaps are celebrating their 20th year. This year their 100th former player made the majors. 25 players per year times 20 years is at the minimum 500 players. So the 1 in 5 holds true. But again, this isn't the point. if you beleive that those 5 I mentioned are your future, then PLAY them! Stop playing guys like Cleary, Miller, eaves, etc... They are not the future. they are role players of the past.



Last time I've heard the Penguins bandwagon still isn't full, so I am sure the "I'll trade the farm for everyone" superb GM Shero has a place for some people. Have fun.

 

Mentioning what Holland didn't do while also forgetting what he did (leading this team succesfully in the communism also known as CBA era) of the league, tons of other GMs failed to do so.

 

Holland also came out and stated, that the Wings might not make the playoffs this season, at least at that point it should have been clear what the direction (*hint* big picture/longterm success) of this franchise would be going into the season including trade-deadline. I know it is hard to figure out for armchair-GMs.

No, it is very easy. I am fine not making the playoffs. Play the kids full time then and find out what we have, don't have. If we are rebuilding then why sign sammy, cola, and the gang?

Ihave been very clear on my thoughts about the RW's. if it is one last hurrah for the cup, great make the moves and try to win. if we are rebuilding, then play the kids and take our lumps. we are half a$$ing both. Not good enough to win the cup, and not bad enough to get the high end young talent in the draft.



#46 achildr1

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

 
Yes, we have great prospects - but we have absolutely zero transition from old guard to new in the works..

I don't know how you came up with this. Who's the old gaurd? Are Kronwall, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg part of it? We obviously transitioned well from the late 90's team and now as those three guys age we have the deepest farm system I've ever seen the Wings have. On percentage's alone we should have several very good NHL'ers in our group.

Smith and Dekeyser could end up being the Kronwall and Fischer clones from the early 00's. Jarnkrok could end up being close to Zetterberg, Nyquist should end up being at least a more rounded Hudler (i personally believe he's better than that), Mrazek looks like a stud goalie (and we already have a relatively young goalie), Sproul looks like at least a good future #3 guy, Andersson is the new Sammy Pahlsson, Tatar (see Nyquist above), Sheahan's downside is Abdelkader and upside is Franzen with passion. Those are just the most legitimate guys...in most hockey writers minds Ouellett, Pulkkinnen, Backman are future nhl players with real upside.

But to stay on topic, as for transition, I see Smith, Dekeyser, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Nyquist, and Andersson as high impact 22-25 year olds ready to start their takeover in the next couple years and Mrazek, Sproul, Jurco and company after that.

If somewhere in the next few years we signed or traded for a younger elite player or just one of Jarnkrok, Sproul, Mrazek, or Jurco become elite nhl players...we should have as bright a future as any other team, if not better.

Edited by achildr1, 04 April 2013 - 01:30 PM.


#47 wingfan1991

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

Holland does gotta go .. after this year's garbage team, he has no pull anymore and is unwilling to trade or give up some garbage prospects.. i.e. Kindl 

 

Does he watch SJ, Hawks, etc play? How can we compete... 



#48 Serratoni

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

Holland does gotta go .. after this year's garbage team, he has no pull anymore and is unwilling to trade or give up some garbage prospects.. i.e. Kindl 

 

Does he watch SJ, Hawks, etc play? How can we compete... 

 

You haven't been watching this season if you think Kindl is a "garbage prospect."



#49 Number19

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:54 PM

All this whining about Holland standing pat and not selling the future, unbelievable. If I were Holland I'd have taken the easy road out last summer (- retiring with Lidas and moving up as president of hockey operations in the organization) and left my successor trying to fix a behind the pack team, going out as a GM legend! One at least has to love his will to fix it and leave (hopefully Stevie, Shero or Chiarelli) with a great roster to build from.

 

Develano has pissed away his chance to ever GM the Detroit Red Wings, with his stupid and insanely offending comments. This organization from top to bottom is and always was about being classy and you can't tell me Mr. I was happy with this comment. You try your best to threat players well and then someone of your own organization is throwing the players under the bus like nothing? Doesn't fly with me.

 

So of course people can critisize Holland all they want, but at least admire his will to fix things.

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#50 BadgerBob

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

Yeah who was that guy? Ya know the guy that built a cup winning team in Long Island and then in detroit :P Its sad that some ppl dont remember past 1998.....Bandwogoners........gotta love em ;)

 

Only reason I don't remember much before that was because I was 7 years old before that season ;)



#51 SuperCalaFilppulastic!

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

I don't know how you came up with this. Who's the old gaurd? Are Kronwall, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg part of it? We obviously transitioned well from the late 90's team and now as those three guys age we have the deepest farm system I've ever seen the Wings have. On percentage's alone we should have several very good NHL'ers in our group.

But to stay on topic, as for transition, I see Smith, Dekeyser, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Nyquist, and Andersson as high impact 22-25 year olds ready to start their takeover in the next couple years and Mrazek, Sproul, Jurco and company after that.

 

Yes, but with Lidstrom, Holmstrom, and Rafalski included. You're misunderstanding what I meant. We're not letting the next crop of players get any significant playing time with these guys outside of injuries happening and forcing us to. Instead, we're signing players like Sammy, Cleary, Cola, Huskins, etc. This is silly if we're trying to rebuild on the fly. We can't wait for Z and D to be gone before we start playing guys like Tatar and Nyquist full-time. Because if they don't pan out, we're royally screwed. Especially if we continue to not take chances or pay the high prices of the players that do come available.



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#52 BadgerBob

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:17 PM

Holland does gotta go .. after this year's garbage team, he has no pull anymore and is unwilling to trade or give up some garbage prospects.. i.e. Kindl 

 

Does he watch SJ, Hawks, etc play? How can we compete... 

 

What I like about SJ GM Doug WIlson is he had guys up for FA and said this, "You can't really allow three UFA to leave and not get any assets in return." The Sharks have 4 picks in the first two rounds of this years draft which is supposed to be a very deep draft class. If we are rebuilding it'd be nice to see Kenny do something like that...



#53 Marty Barry

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

Sorry, not ready to erase "In Kenny We Trust" from Red Wings currency.  Besides, it's the entire braintrust of Holland, Nill, Devellano, and ultimately Illitch that have us where we are.  And where we are is a place that half the league would kill to be.  Of course that is just my opinion and my opinion comes after suffering through the "Dead Wings" era and never even entertaining the thought of jumping ship as a fan.  In Kenny I Trust!



#54 GoalieManPat

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:20 PM

I kind of wish Holland had stayed true to the retirement joke about going whenever Nick did. But then again thats just my knee jerk reaction to him based on how hes let this roster decay the last 4 seasons.



#55 frankgrimes

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:45 PM

I kind of wish Holland had stayed true to the retirement joke about going whenever Nick did. But then again thats just my knee jerk reaction to him based on how hes let this roster decay the last 4 seasons.

 

This would have been the easy route out, but who is their to replace him? Mr. I would have to throw a lot of money at Chiarelli, Stevie or Shero in order to get them here and even then I am not sure Chia or Shero would like to be part of a rebuilding team.

 

As for not shopping Filpulla and White I don't understand it either, the only explanation would be that no other teams were willing to pay a first rounder or a 2/3 for White, so maybe try again in the summer but the prices will never be that high again. So this is clearly a missed opportunity here but other than that, Hollands hands were pretty much tied going into the season, hence the not making the playoffs comment from Kenny.


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#56 GoalieManPat

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:41 PM

This would have been the easy route out, but who is their to replace him? Mr. I would have to throw a lot of money at Chiarelli, Stevie or Shero in order to get them here and even then I am not sure Chia or Shero would like to be part of a rebuilding team.

 

Mr I has  proven he has no problem throwing money around. I believe he would have no qualms with splashing the cash around to get a top GM to replace Kenny. Even more to get Stevie. While I dont think Kenny is a bad GM I just think hes been in the same place so long he has gotten complacent. Usually I just tell myself  that it could be worse. We could have Brian  Burke.



#57 beachwing

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:19 PM

New doesnt always mean better....Pepsi Clear!

#58 Richdg

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:20 PM

This would have been the easy route out, but who is their to replace him? Mr. I would have to throw a lot of money at Chiarelli, Stevie or Shero in order to get them here and even then I am not sure Chia or Shero would like to be part of a rebuilding team.

 

As for not shopping Filpulla and White I don't understand it either, the only explanation would be that no other teams were willing to pay a first rounder or a 2/3 for White, so maybe try again in the summer but the prices will never be that high again. So this is clearly a missed opportunity here but other than that, Hollands hands were pretty much tied going into the season, hence the not making the playoffs comment from Kenny.

That is what is so confusing. If we are rebuilding, then move pieces for draft picks and/or young prospects. yet in the other thread with the link to Mlive, Khan quotes Holland saying we were after Jagr, Torres, JayBo, and Pommy. Those are not rebuilding type of moves. those are win now moves.



#59 Serratoni

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:09 PM

This would have been the easy route out, but who is their to replace him? Mr. I would have to throw a lot of money at Chiarelli, Stevie or Shero in order to get them here and even then I am not sure Chia or Shero would like to be part of a rebuilding team.

 

I'm pretty sure Jim Nill has the job if/when Holland retires.



#60 ZforC

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:17 AM

Holland does gotta go .. after this year's garbage team, he has no pull anymore and is unwilling to trade or give up some garbage prospects.. i.e. Kindl 

 

Does he watch SJ, Hawks, etc play? How can we compete... 

Either your comepletly blind or have never watched a game in your life. Kindl, garbage? Oh and next your going to tell me that Lashoff and Brunner are trash right. You must have been one of the brett hull haters on this forum ;)







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