Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Going forward with what we have


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#1 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

Well, I guess that's it, then.  The rebuild is upon us.

 

I can't say I'm happy with it, but it is what it is.

 

I'm extremely frustrated with Holland's choice to stand pat, but I can also begin to understand.  He wants to build this team again.  We entered the twilight of this franchise's success in 2009 and now it's finally over.

 

We're committed to youth.  Our farm system is extremely boom-or-bust, but it's all we have.  Or are we?  We still employ the likes of Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson.  Three contracts that could be used on young talent.  But no.

 

So, what do we do going forward?  I'll start with right this second and go into the beginning of next season.  I'll touch slightly on the draft and free agency.  I don't know what the market will look like come "Opening Day" and I'm not in-tune enough with the world of hockey prospects to really make a sensible draft list.

 

I'm doing this operating under the assumption that we make the playoffs.  Missing the playoffs wouldn't change much as far as core needs and tasks, anyways.

 

Well, here we go.

 

- Begin contract talks with Filpulla.  DO NOT go in with a "sign-or-let-walk" attitude.  If his demands are unreasonable (I would consider pretty much what he's making now to be reasonable, given his production), be prepared to move his rights at the Draft.

 

- Finish Howard's extension.  While he is prone to inconsistency and lets in soft goals on occasion, he's the best we have.  He's probably worth around 4-5 million a season.  He's playing well right now and seems to have put last year's injury behind him.

 

- Go into the playoffs and do what you're going to do.  Allow our current rookies to show what they can do in the playoffs.

 

- When all is said and done, go to work.  It's time to trim the fat.  Use cap-compliance buyouts on Samuelsson and Bertuzzi.  Try and move Colaiacovo at the Draft, if possible.

 

- This is the big one: dangle Franzen at the Draft.  By no means am I saying to absolutely move him for whatever someone shoves under your nose.  I'm saying to dangle him.  See what you can get.  If you find an offer that you can't refuse, take it.  He's aging, inconsistent, soft, and doesn't use his size.  He's not a player that will perform well in the East.

 

- As far as draft strategy, size and scoring need to be the focus.  The East is a totally different monster from the West.  We're going to get eaten alive in the first couple of seasons.  Find a sniping power-forward who plays with an edge and a big, strong, right-handed defenseman early on.  Fill out the draft with some good two-way guys.  We need all the effort at both ends of the rink we can get.

 

- After the Draft and everything settles down until the re-sign period, sit down and have a REAL heart-to-heart with Datsyuk.  I don't care what BS the media spews about him wanting to leave after this contract.  I want to hear it from his mouth.  If he does indeed intend to leave, be prepared to make him available at the deadline and move him.  Losing Datsyuk for nothing is absolutely unacceptable.

 

- Seriously re-evaluate your position on Brendan Smith.  Let's be honest with ourselves.  He hasn't been very good since his first few games after being called up.  He's been invisible far too often.  He makes a ton of mistakes and, quite frankly, isn't contributing offensively.  This should affect your demands from him contractually when it's time to re-sign him.  If he doesn't like it...tough.

 

- Now comes the re-sign period.  Brunner needs to be the top priority.  He shows a desire to go to the dirty scoring areas, and that translates to the East.  While he is undersized, totally un-physical and hard to watch defensively, he scores goals.  We can't afford to let that go.  Get him for a reasonable raise (3 million should be fine, at the very most).  Next, Kindl and Smith need new contracts.  Neither realistically command a significant raise.  2.5-3 million each should be just fine.  If not, I wouldn't go beyond 4 for either.

 

-Free-agency comes next.  Waive bye-bye to Cleary and White.  Completely unnecessary plugs who aren't much use anymore.  Make Gustavsson available, and take whatever you can get for him.  In what little we ask of him to do, he has been downright awful.  Mrazek needs the experience.  He deserves a chance to prove he can hold down the backup role.  See if Miller can be re-signed for about what he's making now.  If not, it's not a catastrophe to let him walk.

 

- Same strategy should apply to free agency as was applied to the draft.  We won't have a whole lot of money to spend, so we're probably not going to be very active.  We're screwed cap-wise with so many free agents.  I'm going to do the rest of this assuming we aren't active.

 

- As we enter training camp, we now have 7 defenseman (Kronwall, Lashoff, Quincey, Smith, DeKeyser, Kindl and Ericsson), so there aren't many open spots.  None of our defense prospects are close to being ready.  I can see Lashoff being the 7th defenseman during the season.

 

- Forward is a little trickier.  Put Abdelkader in the bottom-6 where he belongs and keep him there.  He is not, and never will be, a goal-scorer.  There are three openings now that Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson are gone.  Tatar should be brought up full-time.  No one else is really NHL-ready.  Try to find two young forwards with size and decent offensive skill on the market.  I can see us going with a lineup looking like this:

 

Filpulla - Datsyuk - Franzen

Tatar - Zetterberg - Brunner

Nyquist - Helm - Abdelkader

Miller - Andersson - Tootoo

 

Extras: Emmerton/Eaves

 

Kronwall - Ericsson

Smith - DeKeyser

Kindl - Quincey

 

Extra:Lashoff

 

Howard

Mrazek

 

- Be prepared to call-up Jarnkrok, Pulkinnen and Sproul during the season if injuries hit.  They aren"t ready for full-time duty, but could hold down a spot for us.

 

And that's about it right through the start of the season.  Essentially, it's about cleaning up the mess from last offseason and getting serious about installing a youth movement to me.

 

I do NOT want to go the way of Calgary, Buffalo, and Dallas.  Middling in the middle while you try to rebuild on the fly DOES NOT WORK.  We can get back on the road to winning consistently if we cut the over-loyal BS and start managing in the 21st century.


Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 04 April 2013 - 02:52 PM.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#2 stillwater

stillwater

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 829 posts
  • Location:ontario

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:06 PM

I stopped reading at "well" ...


  • DSM likes this

#3 wingslogo19

wingslogo19

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,234 posts
  • Location:Victoria BC Canada

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:08 PM

I don't want to go forward with Sammy the band aid


IPB Image

#4 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:12 PM

I stopped reading at "well" ...

...Ok...thanks for trying, I guess.

 

 

 

I don't want to go forward with Sammy the band aid

I literally almost started off by saying to buy out Sammy's contract.


The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#5 Opie

Opie

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 7,419 posts
  • Location:The only Henniker on Earth!

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

Holland was said to be involved in multiple players, how is that standing pat? 

Do you consider what he did this summer standing pat as well?

 

I guess I think standing pat and not getting the players are two different things.


"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#6 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:20 PM

Holland was said to be involved in multiple players, how is that standing pat? 

Do you consider what he did this summer standing pat as well?

 

I guess I think standing pat and not getting the players are two different things.

Who knows if those offers were even competitive?  If your roster is the same as when you entered the deadline, you stood pat.  He could've upped the ante, but he didn't.  He decided to stick with what he had.  It's neither here nor there.  The deadline is over and there's no sense bitching about it anymore.

 

Literally nowhere in this did I once say he stood pat during the summer.

 

In addition to all this, this has nothing to do what the original post.


The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#7 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:35 PM

Well, I guess that's it, then.  The rebuild is upon us.

 

I can't say I'm happy with it, but it is what it is.

 

I'm extremely frustrated with Holland's choice to stand pat, but I can also begin to understand.  He wants to build this team again.  We entered the twilight of this franchise's success in 2009 and now it's finally over.

 

We're committed to youth.  Our farm system is extremely boom-or-bust, but it's all we have.  Or are we?  We still employ the likes of Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson.  Three contracts that could be used on young talent.  But no.

 

So, what do we do going forward?  I'll start with right this second and go into the beginning of next season.  I'll touch slightly on the draft and free agency.  I don't know what the market will look like come "Opening Day" and I'm not in-tune enough with the world of hockey prospects to really make a sensible draft list.

 

I'm doing this operating under the assumption that we make the playoffs.  Missing the playoffs wouldn't change much as far as core needs and tasks, anyways.

 

Well, here we go.

 

- Begin contract talks with Filpulla.  DO NOT go in with a "sign-or-let-walk" attitude.  If his demands are unreasonable (I would consider pretty much what he's making now to be reasonable, given his production), be prepared to move his rights at the Draft.

 

- Finish Howard's extension.  While he is prone to inconsistency and lets in soft goals on occasion, he's the best we have.  He's probably worth around 4-5 million a season.  He's playing well right now and seems to have put last year's injury behind him. Where the hell is the inconsistencies? You must be meaning over-worked. Jimmy is the centerpiece of consistency, and has been one of the few wings to be considered consistent this season. I have to disagree with your statement, "He's playing well" he's playing on his head right now. 

 

- Go into the playoffs and do what you're going to do.  Allow our current rookies to show what they can do in the playoffs. Sure, use all of our rookies and ice the Griffins, i'm sure they'll work their way to the cup instead of veteran's who have done the dance before. You need a perfect influx of youth and veteran leadership. Talented youth won't get you far, look at Edmonton and their previous years. They add #1 overall's to their roster 3 years in a row and still struggle. Luckily, they're finally pulling something together before they drafted for the 4th year.

 

- When all is said and done, go to work.  It's time to trim the fat.  Use cap-compliance buyouts on Samuelsson and Bertuzzi.  Try and move Colaiacovo at the Draft, if possible. Bertuzzi should not get bought out unless his injury calls for him to retire. Why do you think Pavel likes Abby on his line? He can replace Bert and play that role. Bert and Pasha produce together, and work together very nicely. Sammy shouldn't have been brought in but what can we do.

 

- This is the big one: dangle Franzen at the Draft.  By no means am I saying to absolutely move him for whatever someone shoves under your nose.  I'm saying to dangle him.  See what you can get.  If you find an offer that you can't refuse, take it.  He's aging, inconsistent, soft, and doesn't use his size.  He's not a player that will perform well in the East. As much as we hate Franzen, you will not replace his point production for his cap hit. I just can't agree with this.

 

- As far as draft strategy, size and scoring need to be the focus.  The East is a totally different monster from the West.  We're going to get eaten alive in the first couple of seasons.  Find a sniping power-forward who plays with an edge and a big, strong, right-handed defenseman early on.  Fill out the draft with some good two-way guys.  We need all the effort at both ends of the rink we can get. We are getting bigger, and we have bigger guys in the pipeline. The East is not as big as everyone thinks. The Wings have been playing the Eastern conference since day one, we just play the Western conference a lot more. Go look at our records against the "big bad teams" we will be matching against next season, you'll be surprised to know we're well over .500 on every single team. Smaller players do exist in the East, it's not a myth, and they produce just fine.

 

- After the Draft and everything settles down until the re-sign period, sit down and have a REAL heart-to-heart with Datsyuk.  I don't care what BS the media spews about him wanting to leave after this contract.  I want to hear it from his mouth.  If he does indeed intend to leave, be prepared to make him available at the deadline and move him.  Losing Datsyuk for nothing is absolutely unacceptable. Holland already said that he hasn't had talks with Pasha, but plans on having them with him and his agent before Pavel leaves for Russia during the off-season. Oh by the way, you don't move Pasha, you just don't.

 

- Seriously re-evaluate your position on Brendan Smith.  Let's be honest with ourselves.  He hasn't been very good since his first few games after being called up.  He's been invisible far too often.  He makes a ton of mistakes and, quite frankly, isn't contributing offensively.  This should affect your demands from him contractually when it's time to re-sign him.  If he doesn't like it...tough. Wowzer, so we're going to give Kindl all the time in the world to get his chances, but in the first full season of Brendan Smith you want to write him off? Okay. 

 

- Now comes the re-sign period.  Brunner needs to be the top priority.  He shows a desire to go to the dirty scoring areas, and that translates to the East.  While he is undersized, totally un-physical and hard to watch defensively, he scores goals.  We can't afford to let that go.  Get him for a reasonable raise (3 million should be fine, at the very most).  Next, Kindl and Smith need new contracts.  Neither realistically command a significant raise.  2.5-3 million each should be just fine.  If not, I wouldn't go beyond 4 for either.

 

-Free-agency comes next.  Waive bye-bye to Cleary and White.  Completely unnecessary plugs who aren't much use anymore.  Make Gustavsson available, and take whatever you can get for him.  In what little we ask of him to do, he has been downright awful.  Mrazek needs the experience.  He deserves a chance to prove he can hold down the backup role.  See if Miller can be re-signed for about what he's making now.  If not, it's not a catastrophe to let him walk. Mrazek is easily 2-3 years before even backing up Jimmy Howard at this level of play. He simply isn't ready to be considered a back-up right now. Let Monster continue out his contract. 

 

- Same strategy should apply to free agency as was applied to the draft.  We won't have a whole lot of money to spend, so we're probably not going to be very active.  We're screwed cap-wise with so many free agents.  I'm going to do the rest of this assuming we aren't active.

 

- As we enter training camp, we now have 7 defenseman (Kronwall, Lashoff, Quincey, Smith, DeKeyser, Kindl and Ericsson), so there aren't many open spots.  None of our defense prospects are close to being ready.  I can see Lashoff being the 7th defenseman during the season. Lashoff being the 7th next season? Babcock is already giving him big minutes for a rookie and putting him out there in key chances. He has absolute trust in him, and treasures his play. I really can't see him sitting 7th, especially if he isn't THIS season.

 

- Forward is a little trickier.  Put Abdelkader in the bottom-6 where he belongs and keep him there.  He is not, and never will be, a goal-scorer.  There are three openings now that Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson are gone.  Tatar should be brought up full-time.  No one else is really NHL-ready.  Try to find two young forwards with size and decent offensive skill on the market.  I can see us going with a lineup looking like this: Abdelkader WOULD be in the bottom 6 if Bert wasn't hurt. He simply is one of the few that can mimic the play of Bert and provide Pasha the same Bert does. Tatar has shown us a lot, but he certainly needs to be better defensively. I would bring him up this year but it isn't my choice. You want to call no-one else NHL ready but you state right after this that you want Jarnkrok to be a call-up next season? He needs atleast a full season with the Griffs or an OUTSTANDING summer to break the lineup next year. Sproul called up? He just is getting called up to the Griffins. Sproul is not going to be ready next season. Even if Pulk joins the Griffs next year, I won't see him being ready until the following year. 

 

Filpulla - Datsyuk - Franzen

Tatar - Zetterberg - Brunner

Nyquist - Andersson - Abdelkader

Miller/Eaves - Emmerton - Tootoo

 

Kronwall - Ericsson

Smith - DeKeyser

Kindl - Quincey

Lashoff

 

Howard

Mrazek

 

- Be prepared to call-up Jarnkrok, Pulkinnen and Sproul during the season if injuries hit.  They aren"t ready for full-time duty, but could hold down a spot for us.

 

And that's about it right through the start of the season.  Essentially, it's about cleaning up the mess from last offseason and getting serious about installing a youth movement to me.

 

I do NOT want to go the way of Calgary, Buffalo, and Dallas.  Middling in the middle while you try to rebuild on the fly DOES NOT WORK.  We can get back on the road to winning consistently if we cut the over-loyal BS and start managing in the 21st century. If you had faith in your GM, and saw the past history, he would rather keep this team in mediocre playoff contention than allow us to just rebuild for the next 10 years. Come... on. 

 

I tried hitting on everything, but this whole post just makes me want to implode.



Who knows if those offers were even competitive?  If your roster is the same as when you entered the deadline, you stood pat.  He could've upped the ante, but he didn't.  He decided to stick with what he had.  It's neither here nor there.  The deadline is over and there's no sense bitching about it anymore.

 

Literally nowhere in this did I once say he stood pat during the summer.

 

In addition to all this, this has nothing to do what the original post.

 

If they weren't competitive they wouldn't have continued talks. Holland just wouldn't extend further when they took the price too high. The Rangers wanted Brunner apart of a package for Gaborik. Pominville would've costed us Mrazek, Jarnkrok, a 1st, and 2nd; LGW would've IMPLODED if that had gone down. Iggy didn't want to come to us. What else did you want him to get? Another depth player? I'm sorry but Holland is 100% right when he says, my injuried players are better than any depth player that was on the market. WHY trade away a prospect, pick, ANYTHING when you already have a player of that skill within your system, they're just injured? 

 

We need to seriously take a step back and see the smartness in not pulling the trigger on these dumb trades. So what if Holland didn't do s*** this trade deadline, he was smart for not doing so. That rebuild you don't want us to experience... we would've been experiencing if we wanted to start trading away picks and prospects at this point. At this point and time, Wings fans just want a new toy, some change, something. You know it's bad when you consider fighting for a playoff spot for the first time within 22 years, "a horrible thing." MY GOD HOW COULD HOLLAND ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN? FRONT OFFICE. UNACCEPTABLE CONTINUED SUCCESS. 



Oh and final note: we have enough of these "I hate my life and the Red Wings life" threads. Stop making separate threads to simply ***** about something. This easily could've been included within another "If****** hate Holland and this team" threads.



/rant


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#8 rick zombo

rick zombo

    Grit

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,151 posts

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:37 PM

No Helm on your roster? Undermines your credibility.

 

I want Holland to do whatever it takes to make this next year's roster:

 

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Horton/Clarkson/etc

Franzen - Z - Brunner

Bertuzzi - Helm - Tatar

Abby - Andersson - Tootoo

Eaves/Emmerton

 

Kronwall - Ericsson

Quincey - Kindl

Smith - Dekeyser

Lashoff

 

Howard

Monster


"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#9 WorkingOvertime

WorkingOvertime

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,462 posts
  • Location:Columbus, OH

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:40 PM

Mrazek's development is better served with him spending another year in GR and playing 45+ games. As a backup to Howard he won't get enough games to develop. I do see him being the back-up when Gus's contract is up.



#10 Aznknight

Aznknight

    Rookie

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 199 posts

Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:47 PM

I just cant wait for Jurco to play beside dats and for smith and kindle to reach full potential in the next couple of years. And with dekeyser getting full time duties we will be a fantastic team.

Howie and mrazek as a tandem....oh yeah!

Helm, toots and abby will be our next grind line in the future and with fil becoming a young veteran, he can carry the second line. I just really wish franzen is dumped.

I am not at all worried about this team. Championship teams are built within and through adversity.. Can't buy it anymore.

Edited by Aznknight, 04 April 2013 - 01:48 PM.


#11 puckbags

puckbags

    The Future

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,607 posts
  • Location:Cobble Hill, BC, Canada ( 2,522 Miles from the Joe)

Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

...Ok...thanks for trying, I guess.

 

 

 

I literally almost started off by saying to buy out Sammy's contract.

 

The irony in this statement is pretty funny 


"Hard Work Beats Talent When Talent Refuses to Work Hard"

 

 


#12 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:41 PM

I tried hitting on everything, but this whole post just makes me want to implode.



 

If they weren't competitive they wouldn't have continued talks. Holland just wouldn't extend further when they took the price too high. The Rangers wanted Brunner apart of a package for Gaborik. Pominville would've costed us Mrazek, Jarnkrok, a 1st, and 2nd; LGW would've IMPLODED if that had gone down. Iggy didn't want to come to us. What else did you want him to get? Another depth player? I'm sorry but Holland is 100% right when he says, my injuried players are better than any depth player that was on the market. WHY trade away a prospect, pick, ANYTHING when you already have a player of that skill within your system, they're just injured? 

 

We need to seriously take a step back and see the smartness in not pulling the trigger on these dumb trades. So what if Holland didn't do s*** this trade deadline, he was smart for not doing so. That rebuild you don't want us to experience... we would've been experiencing if we wanted to start trading away picks and prospects at this point. At this point and time, Wings fans just want a new toy, some change, something. You know it's bad when you consider fighting for a playoff spot for the first time within 22 years, "a horrible thing." MY GOD HOW COULD HOLLAND ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN? FRONT OFFICE. UNACCEPTABLE CONTINUED SUCCESS. 



Oh and final note: we have enough of these "I hate my life and the Red Wings life" threads. Stop making separate threads to simply ***** about something. This easily could've been included within another "If****** hate Holland and this team" threads.



/rant

OK then...

 

1. That's the point of a rebuild...ice your young talent and see what they can do.  We...will...not...contend...for...the...Cup.

 

2. Bertuzzi is old as dirt and this is a serious injury.  Again...WE'RE IN A YOUTH MOVEMENT.  A half-assed one, but that's how it has to be to get back on track.  He won't be able to produce even if he does return.

 

3. What production?  The one he brings when he feels like it?  We can't win with those kinds of players.  You can't agree with dangling him?  You make it sound like I said exactly what I said I WASN'T saying.

 

4. We play the East in the odd game now and then.  We haven't played them at all this season.  They are only going to get better next year.  Nyquist and Tatar ARE NOT big.  At all.  And even when we have size, our guys with size play like kittens.  See Ericsson and Franzen.  And yes, the East IS as big as everyone says.  Chara, the Staal brothers, Lucic, Ryan Malone and Scott Hartnell, just to name a few.

 

5.  So, you're okay with losing him for nothing?  Okay.  Have fun answering for that one.

 

6. Kindl has proven that he deserves a contract and has been able to hold down a roster spot.  He's been in the league far longer than Smith has.  He has more points and is better in plus/minus than Smith.  He's slowly, but surely, getting better.  Smith has fallen off sharply since those first few games.  Smith makes many mistakes I see Kindl making less and less of.  I literally NOT ONCE said to get rid of Smith.  Never used those words AT ALL.

 

7. Gustavsson is awful and does not deserve to end his deal here.  He was bad in Toronto, and it was a complete and total failure of scouting to sign him.  His game is so screwed up, it's almost laughable.  Mrazek can provide much more than he is able to.

 

8. Lashoff, while being mostly impressive, has started to tail off.  It's obvious there are some parts of his game that need work.  He was forced into action this season due to injuries.  He's young yet and cannot be realistically counted on to play a large role without a little more seasoning.  You're overvaluing his early success.  Again, DID NOT say to get rid of him, just diminish his role with the presence of health to allow him room to learn.

 

9. Again, missed the entire point of what I said.  I said for them to be emergency spot-fillers should injury strike.  I literally use the words "they aren't ready".  That's exactly what happened this season.  I never ONCE said for ANY of them to have a full-time spot.  If we are really committed to a youth movement, we have to give them some time in the NHL at some point and be able to cope with some mistakes.  We were able to this year, why not next?

 

10.  This just makes absolutely no sense to me, but maybe I'm just having a hard time understanding the statement.  So, you're fine with being like Buffalo, Calgary, and Dallas?  You're fine with being mediocre for an undetermined amount of time and eventually having to rebuild when even that comes to an end than rebuilding for a few years and becoming a contender sooner?  I can't wrap my brain around that.

 

Hope this helps explain things.  The way I see it, you missed a lot of my points.

 

Furthermore, he didn't continue trade talks when the price got high...hence the decision to stand pat.

 

Your definition of success is obviously different from mine.  As such, this argument will go nowhere.  Anyhow, being perpetually stuck in the middle of the pack is NOT success.  We had success.  We know what it looks like.

 

Also, I literally said in the first few sentences that I understand that decision.  This is not a rant about how much I hate Holland.  I was telling how I would do it were I the GM.


Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 04 April 2013 - 02:54 PM.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#13 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

I just cant wait for Jurco to play beside dats and for smith and kindle to reach full potential in the next couple of years. And with dekeyser getting full time duties we will be a fantastic team.

Howie and mrazek as a tandem....oh yeah!

Helm, toots and abby will be our next grind line in the future and with fil becoming a young veteran, he can carry the second line. I just really wish franzen is dumped.

I am not at all worried about this team. Championship teams are built within and through adversity.. Can't buy it anymore.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  Start the rebuild now.



No Helm on your roster? Undermines your credibility.

 

I want Holland to do whatever it takes to make this next year's roster:

 

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Horton/Clarkson/etc

Franzen - Z - Brunner

Bertuzzi - Helm - Tatar

Abby - Andersson - Tootoo

Eaves/Emmerton

 

Kronwall - Ericsson

Quincey - Kindl

Smith - Dekeyser

Lashoff

 

Howard

Monster

Changed, missed Helm.  My mistake.


The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.


#14 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

OK then...

 

1. That's the point of a rebuild...ice your young talent and see what they can do.  We...will...not...contend...for...the...Cup.

Uhh who said the Detroit Red Wings are in a re-build? You want to not make the playoffs for numerous seasons in a row, go rebuild. This team doesn't need a rebuild by any stretch of imagination. 

 

2. Bertuzzi is old as dirt and this is a serious injury.  Again...WE'RE IN A YOUTH MOVEMENT.  A half-assed one, but that's how it has to be to get back on track.  He won't be able to produce even if he does return.

Yeah, he's old. Thanks for the information. Yes, he will produce and has produced. Uhh, we're not in a "youth movement", we got hit by injuries. Still have zero idea where the hell you're getting that Detroit's in a "YOUTH MOVEMENT." Oh, by the way, yes Bert coming back would be worlds ahead of Abby playing there. He can actually create real space, create a play, and pot them when given the chance. 

 

3. What production?  The one he brings when he feels like it?  We can't win with those kinds of players.  You can't agree with dangling him?  You make it sound like I said exactly what I said I WASN'T saying.

2008: 59 pts, 2009: 21 pts in 27, 2010: 55 pts, 2011: 56 pts, all while making just under 4 million a year. As much as I hate him, you're not going to throw that away while only paying 4 mil. Not a chance. 

 

4. We play the East in the odd game now and then.  We haven't played them at all this season.  They are only going to get better next year.  Nyquist and Tatar ARE NOT big.  At all.  And even when we have size, our guys with size play like kittens.  See Ericsson and Kronwall.  And yes, the East IS as big as everyone says.  Chara, the Staal brothers, Lucic, Ryan Malone and Scott Hartnell, just to name a few.

So magically because we haven't played them this year, they're just getting bigger and better? Buddy, trust me, small teams exist within the East and they do just fine. Once again, go look at our record against the East. It's pretty frickin awesome. 

 

5.  So, you're okay with losing him for nothing?  Okay.  Have fun answering for that one. I would much rather him never dawn the jersey of another team. Also, while all of this speculation we have ZERO idea what Pasha is doing. Hell, on Twitter the other day he was joking how Mr.I has no more money left over to sign him to a new contract due to Verlanders contract.

 

6. Kindl has proven that he deserves a contract and has been able to hold down a roster spot.  He's been in the league far longer than Smith has.  He has more points and is better in plus/minus than Smith.  He's slowly, but surely, getting better.  Smith has fallen off sharply since those first few games.  Smith makes many mistakes I see Kindl making less and less of.  I literally NOT ONCE said to get rid of Smith.  Never used those words AT ALL.

We sat here and complained about Kindl for the past few seasons on how he's horrible and never going to become what we want. This season was the first season where he actually made some outstanding improvements and has shown he can play defense. So, you want to complain about Smitty with his first season full-time but you want to rave about Kindl. Just.Don't.Get.It.

 

7. Gustavsson is awful and does not deserve to end his deal here.  He was bad in Toronto, and it was a complete and total failure of scouting to sign him.  His game is so screwed up, it's almost laughable.  Mrazek can provide much more than he is able to.

Monster has played pretty good actually, but you don't want to realize the mistakes that the defense made. Accept the mistakes the defense made before just blaming the goalie on allowing goals. Mrazek will not provide more of a back-up right now, none the less it would DESTROY his development. Sure, instead of actually allowing him to play consistently on a nightly basis with the Griffins, we totally want him to sit the pine atleast 3/4 of the season backing up Howard. Doesn't make sense my man.

 

8. Lashoff, while being mostly impressive, has started to tail off.  It's obvious there are some parts of his game that need work.  He was forced into action this season due to injuries.  He's young yet and cannot be realistically counted on to play a large role without a little more seasoning.  You're overvaluing his early success.  Again, DID NOT say to get rid of him, just diminish his role with the presence of health to allow him room to learn.

Is that why Babcock raves about him, puts him in key situations where we really need top players? I don't understand. We simply moved him down to sign DeKeyser, if it wasn't for that, he wouldn't have been sent down. Hell, Babcock immediately came out and said, No no no, we didn't send him because of talent, it was simply a paper move. If we aren't going to make him #7 this year, we sure ain't going to make him #7 when he by all standards should get better.

 

9. Again, missed the entire point of what I said.  I said for them to be emergency spot-fillers should injury strike.  That's exactly what happened this season.  I never ONCE said for ANY of them to have a full-time spot.  If we are really committed to a youth movement, we have to give them some time in the NHL at some point and be able to cope with some mistakes.  We were able to this year, why not next?

So you want a complete youth movement, and then your call-ups are going to be first year griffins. That sounds like an excellent plan. How about we allow these guys to actually come over from Europe and play within the North American game before we immediately want to send them into the big show. Recipe for disaster.

 

10.  This just makes absolutely no sense to me, but maybe I'm just having a hard time understanding the statement.  So, you're fine with being like Buffalo, Calgary, and Dallas?  You're fine with being mediocre for an undetermined amount of time and eventually having to rebuild when even that comes to an end than rebuilding for a few years and becoming a contender sooner?  I can't wrap my brain around that.

What? This makes absolutely NO sense to me. I said if you WANTED to be like Buffalo, Calgary and Dallas then we would do what you want to do. The way Holland and the front office has been handling things, we won't EVER become those franchises. I would MUCH rather make the playoffs for 21 straight seasons, having 21 shots at winning the cup than just making the playoffs every once and awhile. I don't understand how making the playoffs for 21 seasons or continuously can ever be looked at being "mediocre" in the eyes of any franchise. I would call "mediocre" being that we wouldn't make the playoffs, but were fighting for a spot every single year and not making them the majority.

 

Hell, I would say Jarnkrok is most likely the closest to being ready, but yet he still has a long way to learn the AHL game. You can't just bring in prospects because they're supposed to be good in the future. You need to allow them to develop properly, rushing them can seriously be detrimental. 

 

Hope this helps explain things.  The way I see it, you missed a lot of my points.

 

Furthermore, he didn't continue trade talks when the price got high...hence the decision to stand pat.

 

Also, I literally said in the first few sentences that I understand that decision.  This is not a rant about how much I hate Holland.  I was telling how I would do it were I the GM.


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#15 Number19

Number19

    I like our team

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 355 posts

Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:32 PM

St. Louis made the playoffs for 20 straight years and they were pretty mediocre. :D



#16 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:39 PM

St. Louis made the playoffs for 20 straight years and they were pretty mediocre. :D

 

25 actually, Boston holds the most with 29, followed by Chicago with 28, then St.Louis and MTL with 24 and 21. Hawks and Blues the only ones that didn't bring a cup during those streaks. Different standards for different peeps!


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#17 Barrie

Barrie

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,938 posts

Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:13 PM

WE'RE IN A YOUTH MOVEMENT.  A half-assed one

 

What do you expect from a team that has had one, ONE, 1st round draft pick lower then 20th overall since 1991 (Kindl)? Are you expecting a Crosby like skill in Grand Rapids? The fact that we can continue to win, and are called a team on the rise by Pierre McGuire on Sunday's game vs. Chicago, drafting higher then the 20th overall pick for 20/21 seasons is historic.


Lets Go:
Red Wings
Tigers
Roughriders
Lions
Spartans
Pistons

#18 Serratoni

Serratoni

    Rookie

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 114 posts

Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

OK then...

 

1. That's the point of a rebuild...ice your young talent and see what they can do.  We...will...not...contend...for...the...Cup.

Uhh who said the Detroit Red Wings are in a re-build? You want to not make the playoffs for numerous seasons in a row, go rebuild. This team doesn't need a rebuild by any stretch of imagination.

 

“We’re trying to compete, we’re trying to rebuild, reload,'' Holland said. “You look at the moment in time. I can’t look at the moment in time. I have to look at what we’ve got and where I think we can go over the next few years, the age of the roster, who’s going to be here for a while.''

 

http://www.mlive.com...lland_made.html



#19 Dynheart

Dynheart

    Rookie

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 155 posts

Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:32 PM

Going forward? Defense and signing Howard.

 

Looking at the last 5 seasons has made me realize how fast the defense has dropped. I'm not just talking about players here. I'm talking about coaching.

 

We lost a good coach in 2008. With the same players (couple of depth players notwithstanding), our defense dipped dramatically in 2009. The biggest change there was the coaching change.

 

Throughout this cluster **** in 2010, and 2011...and 2012.  We pretty much had a few hero's. One in particular named Jimmy Howard (for some reason we still want to lowball this dudes impact these years and just give all the credit to Lidstrom).

 

Now that he's gone...the defense looks just as bad when pinned in their own zone. Only thing different is that we don't have Lidstrom, when he's on the ice, to get that nice pass out of the zone (or Rafalski). So they pretty much just looking like crap in their own zone even longer.

 

But there they are, in a playoff spot. They aren't getting much offense. And they are top 10 in the GA category (or tied). I highly doubt that's because of the Wings stellar defense. *cough*

 

To me this is Howards best year as a Wing. He's tightened up his game. He's less prone to last minute goals. And I still think he'll get better, as he's only 29. Keep Mrazek in the AHL for a few more years to get him game perfected. From there? Maybe a 1A 1B for a couple of years before the inevitable.

 

As for the defense? Find out who works with who best. Find out your best players and pair them up! What this means is no more Smith/Quincey pairings anymore!

 

Basically it comes down to defense and goaltending for this team for the the remainder of this year, and probably next year, until the kids get their game going. Goaltending is almost as good as it's going to get (I think Howard will peak around 31)...the defense is a mess. Don't mess up Howard's contract..AKA: Don't let him get away/walk. 



#20 DetroitRedWings1993

DetroitRedWings1993

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Ocala, FL

Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:52 AM


OK then...
 
1. That's the point of a rebuild...ice your young talent and see what they can do.  We...will...not...contend...for...the...Cup.
Uhh who said the Detroit Red Wings are in a re-build? You want to not make the playoffs for numerous seasons in a row, go rebuild. This team doesn't need a rebuild by any stretch of imagination. 
 
2. Bertuzzi is old as dirt and this is a serious injury.  Again...WE'RE IN A YOUTH MOVEMENT.  A half-assed one, but that's how it has to be to get back on track.  He won't be able to produce even if he does return.
Yeah, he's old. Thanks for the information. Yes, he will produce and has produced. Uhh, we're not in a "youth movement", we got hit by injuries. Still have zero idea where the hell you're getting that Detroit's in a "YOUTH MOVEMENT." Oh, by the way, yes Bert coming back would be worlds ahead of Abby playing there. He can actually create real space, create a play, and pot them when given the chance. 
 
3. What production?  The one he brings when he feels like it?  We can't win with those kinds of players.  You can't agree with dangling him?  You make it sound like I said exactly what I said I WASN'T saying.
2008: 59 pts, 2009: 21 pts in 27, 2010: 55 pts, 2011: 56 pts, all while making just under 4 million a year. As much as I hate him, you're not going to throw that away while only paying 4 mil. Not a chance. 
 
4. We play the East in the odd game now and then.  We haven't played them at all this season.  They are only going to get better next year.  Nyquist and Tatar ARE NOT big.  At all.  And even when we have size, our guys with size play like kittens.  See Ericsson and Kronwall.  And yes, the East IS as big as everyone says.  Chara, the Staal brothers, Lucic, Ryan Malone and Scott Hartnell, just to name a few.
So magically because we haven't played them this year, they're just getting bigger and better? Buddy, trust me, small teams exist within the East and they do just fine. Once again, go look at our record against the East. It's pretty frickin awesome. 
 
5.  So, you're okay with losing him for nothing?  Okay.  Have fun answering for that one. I would much rather him never dawn the jersey of another team. Also, while all of this speculation we have ZERO idea what Pasha is doing. Hell, on Twitter the other day he was joking how Mr.I has no more money left over to sign him to a new contract due to Verlanders contract.
 
6. Kindl has proven that he deserves a contract and has been able to hold down a roster spot.  He's been in the league far longer than Smith has.  He has more points and is better in plus/minus than Smith.  He's slowly, but surely, getting better.  Smith has fallen off sharply since those first few games.  Smith makes many mistakes I see Kindl making less and less of.  I literally NOT ONCE said to get rid of Smith.  Never used those words AT ALL.
We sat here and complained about Kindl for the past few seasons on how he's horrible and never going to become what we want. This season was the first season where he actually made some outstanding improvements and has shown he can play defense. So, you want to complain about Smitty with his first season full-time but you want to rave about Kindl. Just.Don't.Get.It.
 
7. Gustavsson is awful and does not deserve to end his deal here.  He was bad in Toronto, and it was a complete and total failure of scouting to sign him.  His game is so screwed up, it's almost laughable.  Mrazek can provide much more than he is able to.
Monster has played pretty good actually, but you don't want to realize the mistakes that the defense made. Accept the mistakes the defense made before just blaming the goalie on allowing goals. Mrazek will not provide more of a back-up right now, none the less it would DESTROY his development. Sure, instead of actually allowing him to play consistently on a nightly basis with the Griffins, we totally want him to sit the pine atleast 3/4 of the season backing up Howard. Doesn't make sense my man.
 
8. Lashoff, while being mostly impressive, has started to tail off.  It's obvious there are some parts of his game that need work.  He was forced into action this season due to injuries.  He's young yet and cannot be realistically counted on to play a large role without a little more seasoning.  You're overvaluing his early success.  Again, DID NOT say to get rid of him, just diminish his role with the presence of health to allow him room to learn.
Is that why Babcock raves about him, puts him in key situations where we really need top players? I don't understand. We simply moved him down to sign DeKeyser, if it wasn't for that, he wouldn't have been sent down. Hell, Babcock immediately came out and said, No no no, we didn't send him because of talent, it was simply a paper move. If we aren't going to make him #7 this year, we sure ain't going to make him #7 when he by all standards should get better.
 
9. Again, missed the entire point of what I said.  I said for them to be emergency spot-fillers should injury strike.  That's exactly what happened this season.  I never ONCE said for ANY of them to have a full-time spot.  If we are really committed to a youth movement, we have to give them some time in the NHL at some point and be able to cope with some mistakes.  We were able to this year, why not next?
So you want a complete youth movement, and then your call-ups are going to be first year griffins. That sounds like an excellent plan. How about we allow these guys to actually come over from Europe and play within the North American game before we immediately want to send them into the big show. Recipe for disaster.
 
10.  This just makes absolutely no sense to me, but maybe I'm just having a hard time understanding the statement.  So, you're fine with being like Buffalo, Calgary, and Dallas?  You're fine with being mediocre for an undetermined amount of time and eventually having to rebuild when even that comes to an end than rebuilding for a few years and becoming a contender sooner?  I can't wrap my brain around that.
What? This makes absolutely NO sense to me. I said if you WANTED to be like Buffalo, Calgary and Dallas then we would do what you want to do. The way Holland and the front office has been handling things, we won't EVER become those franchises. I would MUCH rather make the playoffs for 21 straight seasons, having 21 shots at winning the cup than just making the playoffs every once and awhile. I don't understand how making the playoffs for 21 seasons or continuously can ever be looked at being "mediocre" in the eyes of any franchise. I would call "mediocre" being that we wouldn't make the playoffs, but were fighting for a spot every single year and not making them the majority.
 
Hell, I would say Jarnkrok is most likely the closest to being ready, but yet he still has a long way to learn the AHL game. You can't just bring in prospects because they're supposed to be good in the future. You need to allow them to develop properly, rushing them can seriously be detrimental. 
 
Hope this helps explain things.  The way I see it, you missed a lot of my points.
 
Furthermore, he didn't continue trade talks when the price got high...hence the decision to stand pat.
 
Also, I literally said in the first few sentences that I understand that decision.  This is not a rant about how much I hate Holland.  I was telling how I would do it were I the GM.

1. Their record, failure to bring in supplementary talent from outside the organization, and overall age of their core players says they're in a rebuild.  As Serratoni stated above, Holland said it himself.  You think it's 1997.  It's not.  We aren't going to be making the playoffs forever.  In the cap era, you just can't.  Beginning the rebuild now and cutting the dead weight is the best way to expedite the rebuild.
 
2. I'm getting it from Holland.  I don't know what else I need to show you.  Bertuzzi has LONG passed his productive years.  To expect him to produce after a major injury at his age is simply absurd.  Again, you think it's 1997.  WE...CANNOT...WIN...FOREVER.
 
3. You're trying to get me to admit to something I, very clearly, said I wasn't trying to say.  I said to DANGLE him.  NOT to absolutely trade him.  The only situation...and again, ONLY situation...in which you trade him is if the trade supplies you with strong, young talent and several draft picks.
 
4. Yes...they are getting bigger and better.  Dougie Hamilton in Boston.  The Ottawa Senators in general.  Philly is always big and tough and are only going to get bigger and tougher.  New Jersey is always physical, forechecks hard, and is tough to play against.  The Rangers play an extremely physical game.  Marc Staal, Rick Nash, you name it.  To think that a conference will stay exactly the same, or even get worse, is foolish.  Entirely foolish.  Montreal is an anomaly.  Florida and Tampa Bay play the exact same game and both struggle mightily in the East.  Montreal's game is focused around speed and production from the defense.  Outside of Kronwall, we have almost ZERO production from the defense and, as currently coached and constructed, our game does not rely on speed.
 
5. Losing an asset like Datsyuk for nothing is insanity.  Loyalty kills franchises.  Again, you missed the whole point of what I said.  I explicitly stated to discuss with him what the truth is.  Read the point.
 
6. Smith has twice the raw talent Kindl has, for one thing, and for another is higher in the lineup.  This is not his first year in the NHL.  He was called up last year, and didn't impress me.  He has continued not to impress me.  If he's so talented, he should've at least shown some improvement by now.  Again, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, DID NOT say to get rid of him.
 
7. No.  False.  Gustavsson is a worthless scrub and a waste of a contract.  A failure to scout him properly.  He was awful in Toronto.  He showed the same flaws in his game then as he does now, and no one saw it.  A remarkable blunder.  He BADLY overplays the puck and struggles to contain even the simplest shots.  His positioning is awful.  He tries to be Hasek and flops all over the crease, but in reality he just looks like a moron.  There is absolutely no confidence in him as a backup, hence why Jimmy must play so many games.
 
8. You failed to provide any real evidence as to why his play hasn't tailed off.  Babcock continues to play Lashoff because we are thin on defense and he doesn't have a choice.  DeKeyser has more raw talent and needs the experience.  Again, I DID NOT say Lashoff will never play.
 
9. You are...once again...missing the entire point of what I said.  I said to use them in emergency situations.  NEVER did I say to make them full-time NHLers.  Not once did I use those words.  And furthermore, yes, this team needs to commit to youth and begin the rebuild.  The glory years are over.  Accept it.
 
10.  Yes, continuously making the playoffs as a lower seed and being easily dispatched in the first round is mediocre.  The definition of mediocrity is hovering in the middle of the pack while not accomplishing anything real.  Making the playoffs does not mean you're any less mediocre.  Besides that, this team may not even make the playoffs.  And even if they do, they're an easy first-round out.  This team CANNOT compete in the playoffs.
 
You're trying to make what I'm saying out to be A LOT more extremist than it actually is.  That doesn't help your argument.  You need to get out of 1997 and start living in the present.  Picking in the middle of the first round every year is not how you rebuild a franchise.

Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 06 April 2013 - 08:09 AM.

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is rated PG-13 for epic battle sequences.






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users