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4/7 GDT : Blues 1 at Red Wings 0

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#561 Playmaker

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:05 PM

I don't recall saying a thing about any other era.  I'm just realistic enough to know that no team wins it or has a chance to win it every single year.  To expect that there aren't going to be some transition periods or some years that are less successful than others isn't logical.  For a team in transition like the Wings, I would consider a WCF to be a successful season, not a complete and utter failure. 



#562 kipwinger

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:16 PM

I don't recall saying a thing about any other era.  I'm just realistic enough to know that no team wins it or has a chance to win it every single year.  To expect that there aren't going to be some transition periods or some years that are less successful than others isn't logical.  For a team in transition like the Wings, I would consider a WCF to be a successful season, not a complete and utter failure. 

 

Nobody thinks we're supposed to win it every single year.  Where did you get that from?  Seriously, show me anyone who thinks that we're supposed to win each year. 

 

Most of us are, however, concerned that we've trended downward for four years in a row and have done nothing substantial to stop it.  We also are a little worried that in another two years our best player is likely headed to Russia and our remaining "best players" will all be in their mid thirties. 

 

Not even an acknowledgement from management that any of this is an issue.  Three straight early playoff exists?  No prob, we'll just keep trying with the same roster!  We'll be active at the deadline if we do well over the next six games...just kidding, we'll do nothing!  We're rebuilding...but only because our offer for Jagr didn't work about two hours ago.  No straight answers, no accountability. 

 

Lots of b.s. from those responsible for this team, and not a lot of follow through.  Just more of the same...if, if, if.  All during the lockout I kept hearing about how the fans needed to hold team execs accountable.  What about now?  A team that's barely .500, can't score a goal to save it's life, sees it's playoff hopes dwindling with each garbage game, and doesn't do a single thing to help it...for four years!  And many fans just keep giving them a pass.  Rebuild, reload, whatever.  Do something different.  The same old thing hasn't worked in a long time now. 

 

We're not spoiled, we're frustrated.  Borderline pissed off. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#563 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

Nobody thinks we're supposed to win it every single year.  Where did you get that from?  Seriously, show me anyone who thinks that we're supposed to win each year. 
 
Most of us are, however, concerned that we've trended downward for four years in a row and have done nothing substantial to stop it.  We also are a little worried that in another two years our best player is likely headed to Russia and our remaining "best players" will all be in their mid thirties. 
 
Not even an acknowledgement from management that any of this is an issue.  Three straight early playoff exists?  No prob, we'll just keep trying with the same roster!  We'll be active at the deadline if we do well over the next six games...just kidding, we'll do nothing!  We're rebuilding...but only because our offer for Jagr didn't work about two hours ago.  No straight answers, no accountability. 
 
Lots of b.s. from those responsible for this team, and not a lot of follow through.  Just more of the same...if, if, if.  All during the lockout I kept hearing about how the fans needed to hold team execs accountable.  What about now?  A team that's barely .500, can't score a goal to save it's life, sees it's playoff hopes dwindling with each garbage game, and doesn't do a single thing to help it...for four years!  And many fans just keep giving them a pass.  Rebuild, reload, whatever.  Do something different.  The same old thing hasn't worked in a long time now. 
 
We're not spoiled, we're frustrated.  Borderline pissed off.

This pretty much sums up my view. I'm not upset the team isn't dominating anymore and needs a rebuild. I'm just confused as to exactly what the rebuild plan is.

As has been mentioned before, it's not like going into the season Holland was planning let the kids play and develop, even if it made for a mediocre season. Holland signed guys like Cola and Sammy headed into this season to plug holes. Most of the kids got ice time because of injuries, not strategy.

Even at this trade deadline, he talks about the Wings being in a rebuild phase, while also mentioning going after Jagr. So the Wings are clearly trying to rebuild but he pursued an aging playoff rental?

#564 Rivalred

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

This pretty much sums up my view. I'm not upset the team isn't dominating anymore and needs a rebuild. I'm just confused as to exactly what the rebuild plan is.

As has been mentioned before, it's not like going into the season Holland was planning let the kids play and develop, even if it made for a mediocre season. Holland signed guys like Cola and Sammy headed into this season to plug holes. Most of the kids got ice time because of injuries, not strategy.

Even at this trade deadline, he talks about the Wings being in a rebuild phase, while also mentioning going after Jagr. So the Wings are clearly trying to rebuild but he pursued an aging playoff rental?


Maybe a marketing ploy? Brong Jagr in and make a push for a playoff spot and hope to go a few rounds, making money and marketing so many years straight?

I caught parts of the game and confused also with the shuffling
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#565 wingslogo19

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:05 PM

I still have faith the Wings will be in the playoffs.


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#566 Playmaker

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:33 PM

This pretty much sums up my view. I'm not upset the team isn't dominating anymore and needs a rebuild. I'm just confused as to exactly what the rebuild plan is.

As has been mentioned before, it's not like going into the season Holland was planning let the kids play and develop, even if it made for a mediocre season. Holland signed guys like Cola and Sammy headed into this season to plug holes. Most of the kids got ice time because of injuries, not strategy.

Even at this trade deadline, he talks about the Wings being in a rebuild phase, while also mentioning going after Jagr. So the Wings are clearly trying to rebuild but he pursued an aging playoff rental?

I think they had a plan (Suter and Parise) and were foiled in that plan.  I think with the lockout and the uncertainty of the salary cap, they didn't feel comfortable signing any of the other B level free agents like Semin, and being handcuffed with making any moves in the future.  So they signed cheap guys they hoped would plug the gap for a year or two until there was a clearer picture of what they had to work with.  As much as we all hate it,  it HAS worked in the past. 

 

Clearly, that strategy hasn't worked due to the injuries and unproductive seasons by players they counted on like Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall, Quincey and even Datsyuk and Zetterberg.  I can't see the point of keeping guys like Tatar in Grand Rapids when you have guys like Cleary who just are not getting the job done. 

 

I would expect that this offseason there would be a clearer direction in place.

 

If they continue to do the same thing this offseason, then I'd definitely have a problem with it.


Edited by Playmaker, 08 April 2013 - 01:35 PM.


#567 kipwinger

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:03 PM

I think they had a plan (Suter and Parise) and were foiled in that plan.  I think with the lockout and the uncertainty of the salary cap, they didn't feel comfortable signing any of the other B level free agents like Semin, and being handcuffed with making any moves in the future.  So they signed cheap guys they hoped would plug the gap for a year or two until there was a clearer picture of what they had to work with.  As much as we all hate it,  it HAS worked in the past. 

 

Clearly, that strategy hasn't worked due to the injuries and unproductive seasons by players they counted on like Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall, Quincey and even Datsyuk and Zetterberg.  I can't see the point of keeping guys like Tatar in Grand Rapids when you have guys like Cleary who just are not getting the job done. 

 

I would expect that this offseason there would be a clearer direction in place.

 

If they continue to do the same thing this offseason, then I'd definitely have a problem with it.

 

I agree with what you're saying, but even if all of that is true, it's still poor management. 

 

1)  No way should Parise/Suter have been our only off season plan.  You can't put all your eggs in that basket and then do nothing else when it doesn't work. 

 

2)  Holland has to come to terms with the fact that if you want to add a key piece via free agency or trade, you have to spend money.  It's not an overpayment, it's the going rate for top talent. 

 

3)  The job of all the management staff is to evaluate any given situation and give the team options going forward.  If they thought Semin was B rate then they need to be fired.  They need to scout better or something, because I managed to figure out that Semin was the byproduct of a s***ty system in Washington.  If I know it, they need to know it too. 

 

4)  A couple of cheap plugs, particularly at your depth positions (bottom six, bottom pair) isn't that big of a deal.  But when you've got holes in the top six, and you lose three of four top defenders you can't replace them all with plugs or else all your key positions will be filled inadequately.  For example:  It's ok to plug the fourth line center with Emmerton, it's not ok to plug a top line winger with Samuelsson. 

 

5)  Finally, even if you are going to just plug holes, do it cheaply or don't do it.  Holland hates to overpay for talent, but consistently overpays for plugs.  It adds up.  We spent roughly 12 million dollars last summer and have NOTHING to show for it.  Plugging a hole with Eaves or Miller (close to league minimum when we signed them) is money well spent.  Plugging holes with 2.5-3.5 million dollar contracts isn't really a good idea, especially if you've got a lot of holes. 

 

Management gets paid to scout, draft, develop, plan, acquire, trade, and sign the best team possible at any given time.  It's a tough job, but they get paid the big bucks because they're supposedly up to it.  They haven't been lately. 


Edited by kipwinger, 08 April 2013 - 02:04 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#568 Nightfall

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

1)  No way should Parise/Suter have been our only off season plan.  You can't put all your eggs in that basket and then do nothing else when it doesn't work. 

 

2)  Holland has to come to terms with the fact that if you want to add a key piece via free agency or trade, you have to spend money.  It's not an overpayment, it's the going rate for top talent. 

 

I will only address two of your points because the rest of them I agree with.....

 

There were only two top tier free agents last season.  Both didn't choose the biggest paycheck, but chose to go to Minnesota because that is where they played before.  So, for the 2012 off season, that was really the only plan that 20 other clubs had.  The free agent market on top flight free agents is always the slimmest, so really its going to come down to 1-2 guys most seasons.  Which means that its going to be that, or using plugs.


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#569 kipwinger

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

I will only address two of your points because the rest of them I agree with.....

 

There were only two top tier free agents last season.  Both didn't choose the biggest paycheck, but chose to go to Minnesota because that is where they played before.  So, for the 2012 off season, that was really the only plan that 20 other clubs had.  The free agent market on top flight free agents is always the slimmest, so really its going to come down to 1-2 guys most seasons.  Which means that its going to be that, or using plugs.

 

I don't necessarily agree though.  Semin was available, Wideman was in play early (rights traded I know), Carle was available.  He didn't make an offer to any of those guys.  By the time Suter and Parise made their decision we'd already signed Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavsson.  That was his consolation prize.  It was those guys, plus Suter and Parise, or those guys and nothing.  That's a huge drop off.

 

I'd have felt a lot better if we'd entered the Suter/Parise sweepstakes after trading for Wideman's rights and making a competitve offer for Semin.  Then if we miss out we've still got decent talent coming in.  Instead we miss out and have Sammy and Colaiacovo to look forward to. 


Edited by kipwinger, 08 April 2013 - 02:24 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#570 Nightfall

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

I don't necessarily agree though.  Semin was available, Wideman was in play early (rights traded I know), Carle was available.  He didn't make an offer to any of those guys.  By the time Suter and Parise made their decision we'd already signed Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavsson.  That was his consolation prize.  It was those guys, plus Suter and Parise, or those guys and nothing.  That's a huge drop off.

 

I'd have felt a lot better if we'd entered the Suter/Parise sweepstakes after trading for Wideman's rights and making a competitve offer for Semin.  Then if we miss out we've still got decent talent coming in.  Instead we miss out and have Sammy and Colaiacovo to look forward to. 

 

I agree, there were better 2nd tier players to choose from and an offer should have been extended.  I believe I read somewhere that Matt Carle got a contract offer from the Wings but it didn't have the length that he got from Philly.  You are mentioning a couple good 2nd tier players, but thats the point isn't it?  There aren't that many great players out there.  The only one I can really crack Kenny on was not being serious about Semin. 

 

I do hear what you are saying though and I agree with it.  I just believe that we may have only been able to use plugs for this year because of the weak talent pool of free agents.


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#571 Playmaker

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:59 PM

I don't necessarily agree though.  Semin was available, Wideman was in play early (rights traded I know), Carle was available.  He didn't make an offer to any of those guys.  By the time Suter and Parise made their decision we'd already signed Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavsson.  That was his consolation prize.  It was those guys, plus Suter and Parise, or those guys and nothing.  That's a huge drop off.

 

I'd have felt a lot better if we'd entered the Suter/Parise sweepstakes after trading for Wideman's rights and making a competitve offer for Semin.  Then if we miss out we've still got decent talent coming in.  Instead we miss out and have Sammy and Colaiacovo to look forward to. 

I don't necessarily have an issue with them not signing Semin, Wideman or Carle.  Semin is making 7 million this year. How would the team and the fan base feel about him being our highest paid player? He's also had a reputation of being lazy and not bringing it every night. It is a one year deal, but whether he was asking for only 1 year in the beginning isn't clear.  Wideman isn't a top two defenseman, and yet he's signed for like 5 years, 26 million.  Carle is the same, long term deal for almost 6 million a year.  That would have taken up all the cap room and then some.    Jimmy Howard is a UFA this year, as is Flip, Cleary, Brunner, Ian White and Drew Miller.  Plus we have several of the young guys who are RFA.  Smith, Nyquist, Andersson, Kindl.  So we have to sign those players (hopefully not Cleary and maybe not White), but that's a lot of salary increases and the Wings only have 17 million to work with.  Wideman and Carle would have taken up a big chunk of that.  Hopefully, too, the Wings use their 2 buyouts to rid us of some dead weight (Sammy, Cola) to free up a few million, but its still cutting things close. 



#572 Wings4Life19

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:47 PM

I read through this thread again and I know that this post will seem like in trying to say that I was right and the people I was arguing with we're wrong, but I that is not my intention so please take this in the spirit in which its intended.

I made the point that anything can happen in the playoffs and a few people jumped on me saying that it can't and the wings don't have the roster to make any sort of run in the playoffs. Yet here we are up 3-1 on Chicago and even I am surprised at what this team has done. The Wings have the skill, grit, and goaltending to compete with anybody, it was just a matter of putting it together at the same time. It is a nice change to feel what the fans of all the teams that knocked off the heavily favored wings in the past 15 years.
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#573 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:01 PM

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#574 Jedi

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:06 PM

I read through this thread again and I know that this post will seem like in trying to say that I was right and the people I was arguing with we're wrong, but I that is not my intention so please take this in the spirit in which its intended.

I made the point that anything can happen in the playoffs and a few people jumped on me saying that it can't and the wings don't have the roster to make any sort of run in the playoffs. Yet here we are up 3-1 on Chicago and even I am surprised at what this team has done. The Wings have the skill, grit, and goaltending to compete with anybody, it was just a matter of putting it together at the same time. It is a nice change to feel what the fans of all the teams that knocked off the heavily favored wings in the past 15 years.
I'm so proud to be a hockey fan in general because its the only sport where every team has a legit shot to win a championship.

The Stanley Cup Playoffs: Anything is possible.


You don't want to say "I told you so", but then you proceed to pretty much say "I told you so", though in a more respectful manner than most others would.

I don't think there's a need to continue that aspect of discussion in the GDT for a game that was a month and a half ago... The GDT for tonight's game will do just fine.

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