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Anyone else liking the pre 2005 more?


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#1 frankgrimes

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:23 AM

Today I thought about how I've adored hockey back in the good old days, couldn't stop watching the games was thrilled to see "my" Red Wings play, watching so many great players on the ice and fantastique season was just gorgeaus but for whatever reason, I heavily dislike the new NHL. I don't agree with the stupid rule-changes, how they are treatening the fans and all this CBA crap.

 

To be honest for me as a fan, I am losing interest in the NHL fast, trade-deadlines and UFA days are not what they once were and tank to win teams are rising to the top or at least close to it every year. Speaking with some friends I am clearly not the only one, losing interest in the NHL.

 

So what about you? Do you think this league can be fixed or will it continue to lose fans because of idiots running the show and by doing so, ruinning this great sport.


Edited by frankgrimes, 07 April 2013 - 07:24 AM.

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#2 RedWingAbner

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:26 AM

Uh, yeah....lol.

 

It was a ton better when there were no salary restrictions.



#3 Nightfall

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:42 AM

So yea, from 1991-2004, lets look at the total number of championships per team

 

Pittsburgh - 2

Montreal - 1

New York Rangers - 1

New Jersey Devils - 3

Colorado Avalanche - 2

Detroit Red Wings - 3

Dallas Stars - 1

Tampa Bay Lighting - 1

 

Before the cap, there were dynasties.  We won't see dynasties in the NHL with the cap thats for sure.

 

On the flip side, while many people cry about the cap, no one wants to address that the Wings were dead in the water for years even before the cap.  I wasn't around in the 60s, 70s and 80s but I have heard those were lean years.  So I guess the pre-cap world was great if the ownership of your team invested wisely in getting good players and making a run.  Imagine if Illitch didn't invest in the team all these years.  People would be loving the cap around here.

 

Who knows how things are going to change once Illitch sells.  Will a new owner invest in the Wings like he has?


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#4 e_prime

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:47 AM

I refuse to live in the past.


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#5 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:30 AM

So yea, from 1991-2004, lets look at the total number of championships per team

 

Pittsburgh - 2

Montreal - 1

New York Rangers - 1

New Jersey Devils - 3

Colorado Avalanche - 2

Detroit Red Wings - 3

Dallas Stars - 1

Tampa Bay Lighting - 1

 

Before the cap, there were dynasties.  We won't see dynasties in the NHL with the cap thats for sure.

 

On the flip side, while many people cry about the cap, no one wants to address that the Wings were dead in the water for years even before the cap.  I wasn't around in the 60s, 70s and 80s but I have heard those were lean years.  So I guess the pre-cap world was great if the ownership of your team invested wisely in getting good players and making a run.  Imagine if Illitch didn't invest in the team all these years.  People would be loving the cap around here.

 

Who knows how things are going to change once Illitch sells.  Will a new owner invest in the Wings like he has?

 

Who said he was going to sell?



#6 evilzyme

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:41 AM

 
Who said he was going to sell?


I personally don't see them selling the franchise. I thought his son(s) were already in decent positions within the franchise and most likely taking over in the future? Who knows!

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#7 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:25 AM

My biggest complaint since 2005 would be the shootout, but I won't go into all that again. :D

As for the cap, I don't know that parity necessary equals a healthier league. The NHL apparently thinks so and I'm sure it makes a lot of small markets happy, but people still talk about the Avs-Wings rivalry. That happened in great part because they were two great teams who had to get past the other one to win the Cup year after year. Plus when the teams become successful for years, they usually achieve popularity that transcends just their local market.

I also think a soft cap/luxury tax might be better as well. At the very least in principal it would reward great owners like Ilitch who turned around a franchise and know how to run a business. I'm guessing he'd happily pay extra revenue sharing if he could spend above the cap.

And with the cap and contract limits, we'll likely start to see more teams having a couple star players and a whole lot of scrubs on the bottom two lines. Owners will always pay top dollar for the star players, there's just not a lot to go around for everyone else. The more they ratchet down the cap and contract restrictions, it'll only get worse.

But honestly a part of waining interest is also just getting older and having more things compete for my time. I love hockey, but I could never love it as much as I did when I was 12 years old, going to nearly every home game and watching as many games as I could, even though the team was pretty awful then except for this guy Yzerman.

#8 jollymania

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

I think the 90s and early 00s was the glory age of hockey.


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#9 dobbles

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

i dont miss that time at all. before the lost season, hockey had become incredibly boring and stale. there was little to no excitement because it was a giant hugfest with all the interference and holding. the only reason people here pine for it is because the wings were a top team.

 

in general, the salary cap rewards well run franchises. because everyone is on a level playing field, its all about resource management. everyone likes to wine that the only way to win a championship is to tank for a long time, but there are only 2 example of that; chicago and pittsburgh. and if you honestly look at their situations, its more luck than a strategy of tanking. chicago was terrible because old man wirtz was an awful owner. the only reason they turned it around was him kicking the bucket. the changes that were made after he passed are what allowed the hawks to actually turn that talent into a good team. and if you look at pittsburgh, they just got lucky to get 2 of the best players of their generation in successive drafts. theres more examples of teams that are bad and stay bad than the 2 that managed to turn around their franchises. think of columbus, the islanders, and the oilers. heck the oilers had the #1 pick 3 years in a row and are still terrible! if tanking for draft picks was an effective strategy, i think we would be seeing something there.


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#10 Nightfall

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:16 PM

Who said he was going to sell?

 

No one, just saying that things change when ownership sells.  Look at the Wings before Illitch and then after.  Who knows what is coming with the next change.


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#11 Resetti

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

I am strongly in favor of the hard salary cap that the NHL runs.  The burden of success is equal across the league as teams need to draft, develop, and manage talent wisely.  I shudder at the mere suggestion of a soft cap/luxury tax.  I honestly can't stand baseball because big market teams can steamroll free agency and the gulf between the haves and the have-nots widens.  This is definitely something that the NHL got right.

 

The shootout and three-point games are obviously problematic.  I understand why they wanted to incentivize teams to play hard in OT instead of the ultra-conservative shell game fringe playoff teams used to play under old rules... but it has created some issues.  I think these are things that need to be tweaked.

 

As far as the rules are concerned, I think that the NHL has relapsed in a way.  They wanted the game to have less obstruction and have more speed, but I think that we've regressed on that point.  Part of that is in the enforcement of the new rules.  Goalie equipment is getting ridiculous as well... they need to be protected, of course, but they look like they're in a sumo fat-suit!  

 

At any rate... I'm not going to fall into the trap of glorifying the past.  Nostalgia clouds perception.



#12 Serratoni

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:49 PM

I am strongly in favor of the hard salary cap that the NHL runs.

 

I loathe the salary cap. Not only because it supposedly prevents the "buying championships" either. That tactic doesn't always or even usually work. The Wings didn't win every year and neither do the Yankees. To this point, neither have the Tigers.

 

The salary cap in hockey is a method to ensure competitiveness among teams that really should fold. It's a way to dictate to incompetent owners/front offices, to tell them how much they should spend on a team, on players, and how much to invest. The league has expanded into small/bad markets. The salary cap keeps those teams on the ice.

 

I don't want to see the NHL turn into the NBA where 2-3 players surrounded by scrubs can bring home a championship. But that seems like the way of the future. Teams will continue to pay top dollar for stars (Minnesota) and then fill their rosters with 3rd and 4th liners playing on the 2nd.



#13 frankgrimes

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:00 PM

i dont miss that time at all. before the lost season, hockey had become incredibly boring and stale. there was little to no excitement because it was a giant hugfest with all the interference and holding. the only reason people here pine for it is because the wings were a top team.

 

in general, the salary cap rewards well run franchises. because everyone is on a level playing field, its all about resource management. everyone likes to wine that the only way to win a championship is to tank for a long time, but there are only 2 example of that; chicago and pittsburgh. and if you honestly look at their situations, its more luck than a strategy of tanking. chicago was terrible because old man wirtz was an awful owner. the only reason they turned it around was him kicking the bucket. the changes that were made after he passed are what allowed the hawks to actually turn that talent into a good team. and if you look at pittsburgh, they just got lucky to get 2 of the best players of their generation in successive drafts. theres more examples of teams that are bad and stay bad than the 2 that managed to turn around their franchises. think of columbus, the islanders, and the oilers. heck the oilers had the #1 pick 3 years in a row and are still terrible! if tanking for draft picks was an effective strategy, i think we would be seeing something there.

 

You can see it as a giant hugfest for sure, but I for one felt it was more intense, meaner and the overall product was a lot better than todays event-NHL. Detroit wasn't the only top-team there were are lot of top-teams like someone mentioned the Avalanche under Sakic, Roy for example.

 

Sure as we are getting older, we are focusssing on more important things than a game, but obviously watching hockey should be a thrill and not something to despise but the lockout has changed a lot for me. 8 more years of this stupid parity crap are for sure not something I am going to watch, so yes give me pre 2005 hockey back and this is not just nostalgia.

 

I am strongly in favor of the hard salary cap that the NHL runs.  The burden of success is equal across the league as teams need to draft, develop, and manage talent wisely.  I shudder at the mere suggestion of a soft cap/luxury tax.  I honestly can't stand baseball because big market teams can steamroll free agency and the gulf between the haves and the have-nots widens.  This is definitely something that the NHL got right.

 

I am just learning about the MLB (getting better but still) from what I've read, the have-nots and the league itself should kiss the Yankees, Red Sox because the more the spend, the more these teams are getting in hard $, the difference in the NHL is Ilitch doesn't gain anything from feeding the "have-nots". Now even UFA players are under contract limits and only their "own" team can offer them more, this is just turning into a joke sorry.

 

Please note, I am not against the cap per se I am against the fact, that the teams who are paying the most aren't getting a reward for it. It should be a give-get kind of thing which it is not, if Ilitch is paying 5 % of the teams revenue on other teams Wings should be allowed to be 5 % over the cap, you get the idea?


Edited by frankgrimes, 07 April 2013 - 06:07 PM.

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#14 VM1138

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

I don't mind the salary cap, I do mind the retarded rules. Game isn't as fun. And were fake, forced, rivalries as common back then? When I started really watching, I only could watch the Wings.

Games seem too predictable and scripted now with the bad reffing focused more on outcomes than calling penalties.
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#15 puckbags

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:23 PM

I don't mind the salary cap, I do mind the retarded rules. Game isn't as fun. And were fake, forced, rivalries as common back then? When I started really watching, I only could watch the Wings.

Games seem too predictable and scripted now with the bad reffing focused more on outcomes than calling penalties.

 

And we get games like today where the Blues were literally not even trying to score, it was boring as hell. I will say one thing for all the flaws that our team has this year at least we try to get some flow going to the game and move the puck with some nice passes. 


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#16 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:36 PM

I hate the shootout personally, I think it was brought in as a gimmick to attract more fans but isn't a proper way to decide the outcome of the game. If they ever introduce it to the playoffs and discontinue sudden death overtime it may be enough to turn me away completely. I didn't mind ties as much as I mind a team being able to gain an extra point for winning a mini all-star event at the end of the game. 

 

I also miss the fierce rivalries, we may never see anything like Colorado/Detroit in the 90's ever again. I hate the fact that they are in a continuous battle to push fighting out of the sport, and yes as much as I dislike hits to the head and concussions, I think a lot of players are afraid to lay out heavy hits anymore which takes away from the physical aspect of the game. 

 

And my god do I miss Yzerman and the days of watching him play. I try not to live in the past but i'm not sure we will see another generation of hockey like it used to be. 


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#17 Resetti

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:37 PM

The argument that there are teams in bad markets that water down the product of the game is valid, but I don't think that's something to necessarily pin on the salary cap.  It's bad leadership.  The NHL has the opportunity to relocate teams like Phoenix and haven't to this point.  

 

As far as the salary cap goes, it's about creating a level playing field.  You're right that money doesn't buy championships, but in baseball you can pencil in half the playoff field just by looking at rosters.  Teams without deep pockets face an uphill battle from the start.  You have MLB cities that haven't seen playoff action in literally decades.  I question whether some of those small market teams are even focused on winning.  I'm pretty sure clubs like the Pirates have just pocketed all kickbacks from the luxury cap instead of funneling that into improving the on-field team.  The fans suffer under this model.

 

The salary cap pushes the burden of success on management and scouting.  In a luxury cap scenario, talented players just have to float out into free agency until they land on Cash Island.  Some teams end up being relegated to Pro Farm status.  What's fair is having all teams built under the same set of rules.  The NHL messes a lot of things up but the decision to have a hard salary cap is one thing they have right.  Teams should not have a competitive advantage on the basis of being owned by a billionaire.



#18 VM1138

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:45 PM

Agreed. A cap is necessary. I'd like to see some rule to force teams like the Islanders to actually spend money.

What you guys are complaining about isnt the cap, it's the rules and their enforcement.
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#19 StormJH1

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:53 PM

Agreed with a lot of what @haroldsnepsts wrote about parity...

 

I'm really conflicted on this issue.  The 2012 lockout might have changed a lot of my views about the 2005 lockout, which I originally considered to be a "success".  Now, I wonder if the perceived success of the post-lockout was really limited to three factors, which were either wholly unrelated to the lockout, or a self-fulfilling prophecy therefrom:

 

(1) The lockout carpet-bombed the popularity of the league so badly (and reset salaries, TV ratings, etc.) that the perceived "growth" from 2005-08 was really just the league naturally recovering where it was pre-lockout.

 

(2) The growth of HDTV coincided perfectly with the post-lockout era and while hockey is still arguably a "bad" TV sport, the argument has also been made that hockey benefits the most from SD --> HD versus all the "major" sports.

 

(3) A unique class of colorful and super-talented new faces for the league, such as Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin.

 

If you listen to fans/media from other markets, or even neutral sources (such as the Marek v. Wyshinski podcast), you get a real sense that the BEST years as a Wings fan were an absolute dark period for the league and its fans.  When we think of Yzerman, Fedorov scoring 5 goals, Vladdy throwing checks, Hasek standing on his head, and 4th lines stuffed with Hall of Famers, the rest of the team thinks of the "dead puck" era, 2-1 double overtime games, and goalies with absurdly large equipment and jerseys. 

 

Still, I LOVED the sport in that era.  I loved watching other teams.  Even though I hated the Avalanche, they were easily my 2nd favorite team to watch (and they got tons of coverage on "The Deuce", ESPN2).  But I'll never be able to say if the NHL seemed to "big" to me because of what an exciting time that was for the Red Wings, or if the product really was that good.

 

I love to remind people the year before we blew the whole thing up to achieve "parity" and "cost certainty", the two teams in the Stanley Cup Finals were Calgary and Tampa Bay.  I don't know that parity necessarily is good for the league.  Baseball is doing pretty well right now (and has had almost two decades of labor peace), and I don't know if the product "works" the same if New York, Boston, and L.A. don't get to spend into oblivion. 



#20 F.Michael

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:06 PM

Look at my avatar...Stevie & Shanny...Scoring goals, and punching faces...A wonderful combo of skill/grit/toughness...

 

I've said it 1,000 times before...I'll take my beloved Detroit Red Wings circa 97/98 over 2008 anytime.

 

 

EDIT - just think if we had our 97/98 club today, or if we had HDTV back then...Would've made Claude Lemieux's ass kicking so much better!


Edited by F.Michael, 07 April 2013 - 09:08 PM.


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