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ESPN: The 7 deadly sins of roster construction


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#21 Aznknight

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

We like our team

#22 rick zombo

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:44 PM

I'd add #3 and #4.

 

Considering Kenny never trades roster players I don't think #3 applies.

 

Pretty sure #4 was drafted with RFAs in mind. Holland's been OK at that 2nd contract. Zetterberg, Filpulla, Kronwall, etc all got very reasonable short-term RFA deals. Remember, Ericsson, Z, and Franzen were all given long term deals as UFAs.  


"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#23 Euro_Twins

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

Considering Kenny never trades roster players I don't think #3 applies.

 

Pretty sure #4 was drafted with RFAs in mind. Holland's been OK at that 2nd contract. Zetterberg, Filpulla, Kronwall, etc all got very reasonable short-term RFA deals. Remember, Ericsson, Z, and Franzen were all given long term deals as UFAs.  

 

Ericsson got a long term deal?



#24 Crymson

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:52 PM

Isnt NMC the same as NTC? How could you be moved but not traded? Just sent to GR?

 

Itll be funny is we ever see the whole article to see how many of these sins kenny has avoided. And then well hear baout how horrible ESPN is in hockey coverage.

 

NMCs protect a player from being waived.



#25 rick zombo

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

Ericsson got a long term deal?

 

No. Sorry. My bad.

 

Basically, the point of #4 is a good GM won't, or at least shoudln't, offer bad contracts to RFAs. But with UFAs they have less leverage. Hence the long term deals to Z and Franzen, and I also used Ericsson as an example because, although the term was short, the amount was high.  


Edited by rick zombo, 10 April 2013 - 02:54 PM.

"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#26 Crymson

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:54 PM

We like our team

 

The usage of this quote was clever at first. Several thousand uses later, it is getting very tiresome, even more so because it comes up in almost every single thread about the team.


Edited by Crymson, 10 April 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#27 Nev

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

I'd add #3 and #4.

 

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?
 

 

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

 

 

5. Paying on potential - Who?

 

 

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL.  And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term".  And none of them are crippling us.

 

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson.  Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report".  His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else.  But the rest?  Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.


Edited by Nev, 10 April 2013 - 03:03 PM.

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#28 Crymson

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?
 

 

 

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

 

 

5. Paying on potential - Who

 

 

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL.  And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term".

 

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can be pinned on Holland too - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson.  Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report".  His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else.  But the rest?  Having said that, its not like they're crippling us.

 

Cleary's NTC lasted only for the first three seasons of his contract.



#29 Nev

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:04 PM

The usage of this quote was clever at first. Several thousand uses later, it is getting very tiresome, even more so because it comes up in almost every single thread about the team.

 

This I agree with

 

If you dislike this iteration of the Wings so much, then go cheer for another team.

 

This not so much.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#30 Crymson

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:14 PM

This I agree with

 

 

 

This not so much.

 

*shrug*

 

It's a product of my exasperation.



#31 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:22 PM

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?
 

 

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

 

 

5. Paying on potential - Who?

 

 

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL.  And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term".  And none of them are crippling us.

 

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson.  Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report".  His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else.  But the rest?  Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.

 

 #5 could possibly be for Filppula, who only reached his potential for 1 season and then retuned to old Flip this year.  When he signed, a lot of people wondered why he was getting 3 mil including myself.  The other player may be Ericsson.  Same story as Flip.  He's playing really good now, but when he signed, he was a 1.5 mil per Dman.


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#32 Crymson

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

 #5 could possibly be for Filppula, who only reached his potential for 1 season and then retuned to old Flip this year.  When he signed, a lot of people wondered why he was getting 3 mil including myself.  The other player may be Ericsson.  Same story as Flip.  He's playing really good now, but when he signed, he was a 1.5 mil per Dman.

 

Kronwall got five years at $3m too, and proved to be totally worth it. As for Filppula, 2nd-line centers don't come cheap, and he performs adequately. He hasn't panned out as well as Kronwall, but he's OK for the price.



#33 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

The usage of this quote was clever at first. Several thousand uses later, it is getting very tiresome, even more so because it comes up in almost every single thread about the team.

 

Ok then ignore it.



#34 kipwinger

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:03 PM

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?
 

 

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

 

 

5. Paying on potential - Who?

 

 

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL.  And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term".  And none of them are crippling us.

 

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson.  Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report".  His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else.  But the rest?  Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.

 

I'm going to address #5 only, because I mostly agree with you on everything else.  I do think Holland has a problem with paying for potential, but perhaps not in the sense that Custance was talking about.  Custance spoke about paying young guys more than they've show they're worth.  Holland did this in the case of Ericsson, who has since played well enough to earn his raise, so no problems there.  But he does have a tendency to pay guys for past potential.  Sammy, Colaiacovo, Quincey and to a lesser extent White, Gustavsson, and Tootoo are all getting paid for what they'd done in the past, in hopes that they'd be able to recreate that success. 

 

Sammy is getting paid more than he ever has in his career and is two years removed from his career high seasons with Van...and he's 36.

 

Colaiacovo is getting paid more than he ever has and he's two years removed from his career best 32 pts. and hasn't played more than 67 games in four years. 

 

Quincey is getting paid more than he ever has and he's three years removed from his career best 38 pts. 

 

White is making slightly less ($100,000) than his career best and (when signed) was four years removed from his career best 26 pts. It should be noted that last year he outperformed all his previous seasons so one could argue he exceeded expectations, but that was not a given when he signed. 

 

Gustavsson is making more than he's ever made, and is coming off a season that is roughly average for him in his short career. 

 

Finally, Tootoo is making more than he's ever made, though he is coming off a career year, it was statistically an anomaly considering he'd never put that kind of production up at any point during his career. 

 

Obviously some of these aren't as bad as others, but in every sense these guys got raises based on past play or random success.  Nothing proven with any of them.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#35 Jesusberg

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:39 PM

I was going to read this, but I stopped as ES...

 

Was going to write this. You beat me to it.



#36 Buppy

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:26 PM

 #5 could possibly be for Filppula, who only reached his potential for 1 season and then retuned to old Flip this year.  When he signed, a lot of people wondered why he was getting 3 mil including myself.  The other player may be Ericsson.  Same story as Flip.  He's playing really good now, but when he signed, he was a 1.5 mil per Dman.

Flip had only played two seasons, so it does apply a little. However, $3M for a defensively responsible 3rd-line center who could put up ~40 points and step into a top-6 role was a fair price, even back when he signed. Last year he was one of the best bargains in the league.

 

I'm going to address #5 only, because I mostly agree with you on everything else.  I do think Holland has a problem with paying for potential,   ...   Sammy, Colaiacovo, Quincey and to a lesser extent White, Gustavsson, and Tootoo are all getting paid for what they'd done in the past, in hopes that they'd be able to recreate that success. .

I think you're being a bit too liberal with that definition. By your definition, every player in the league is being paid for potential since you never know for sure how someone will perform.

 

While most of the players you listed are making more than they have in the past, that should be expected in most cases given how the cap has gone up and that most are still in their prime years. None of them a paid all that much, or anything particularly out of line with what could reasonably be expected given their history.

 

Your stats for White are off. He scored 38 in 09-10, and 26 in 10-11. 26, 21, and 26 his other 3 seasons. He's paid like a 4/5 tweener. He didn't have to match or exceed any career numbers to be worth what we paid.

 

Quincey was paid like 3/4. Again, we didn't need him to put up career numbers to be worth it. The numbers he had in LA would have made him a bit of a bargain. The numbers he put up in his two healthy years in Colorado would have been fine. There was little reason to assume he wouldn't be able to do so.

 

Cola was paid like a 4/5. 60 games and 20 points would have been fine. Again, no particular reason to think he couldn't have done that.

 

Gus is paid like a backup goalie expected to be able to put at least some pressure on Howie. Given how he'd played in Toronto, that's a perfectly reasonable expectation.

 

Tootoo I don't think is being paid for points. With the energy and grit he brings, 15-20 points would be fine for a full season, and that's below his career PPG numbers.

 

Giving Sammy 2 years was maybe questionable, with the injury trouble he had last year. But he was still scoring at a 20g/40p+ pace last year. He's been good for .5 ppg+ pretty much every year post-lockout. He didn't need to score 30g or 50p to earn $3M. 15-20g, 35-40p would have earned his deal and would have been a reasonable expectation.



#37 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:49 PM

Ok then ignore it.

I agree, but in his defence it doesn't need to be on every page of every thread.  


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#38 FlashyG

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:18 PM

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?
 

 

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

 

 

5. Paying on potential - Who?

 

 

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL.  And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term".  And none of them are crippling us.

 

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson.  Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report".  His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else.  But the rest?  Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.

 

As far as #1 is concerned, I think the key words in the title are "over-restrictive". Kenny has handed out 6 NTC's to players on our roster and 1 NMC. The NMC was to Datsyuk and it expired in 2011, it's now just a partial NTC.

 

Of the other 6 No Trade deals, Cleary's has expired completely, plus Bertuzzi's, Gustavsson's and Ericsson are all on modified NTC's making them less restrictive. The only 2 full NTC's on the team are for Kronwall and Samuelsson, and one of those was on a short term deal. In 2018, Kronwall's deal changes to a Modified NTC where he can submit 10 teams the Wings can deal him to.

 

I don't think the NMC/NTC's handed out to the Wings players are very restrictive at all with the exception of Kronwall's.



#39 Dabura

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:05 PM

Maybe a bit premature - but it looks like we've just about got #7 in the bag, baby. :punk:


Don't Toews me, bro!


#40 Jesusberg

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

With Howard's signing today, we've got about 12.6 million to sign 5 guys. Flip and Brunner will be getting reasonable raises, and Nyquist, Andersson, Kindl and Smith are all in for minor raises. Really no need to be worried, I think, but I really hope they use a buyout on Samuelsson. I'd rather them be comfortable than nearly up against it, keeping a guy who isn't going to make much of an impact.

I wouldn't mind them using one on Colaiacovo too, but I feel like Holland will want to keep around for the sake of depth. Lashoff is a serviceable NHL defender, but beyond him, who would they call up from the Griffins in case of injury? Almqvist? Lashoff might be better served to start the year in the AHL, as opposed to as their 7th defender.







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