nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM

[Nightfall 871]

This is the bogus argument that upsets me.

Tootoo = 1.5

Sammy = 3

Colo = 2

Gustavsson = 1.5

Bertuzzi = 1.5

Huskins = .5

There's 10 mil right there. Don't tell me we don't have the money or room. We just spend it unwisely. Mind you, this is hindsight for most people. But a good GM, and certainly the proclaimed BEST GM, should have been able to predict that the 35 plus guys and historically fragile guys might not provide a worthwhile ROI.

That being said, the lockout can work to Hollands advantage. If he dumps the garbage, then we will have a chance to jump to light speed just like the imperial fleet.

Just based on the armchair GMs here in this forum, I would rather have Kenny at the helm than anyone here or a vast majority of the GMs out there in the field today for that matter. Every GM makes mistakes. No GM can tell the future.

[Zetts 236]

This is the bogus argument that upsets me.

Tootoo = 1.5

Sammy = 3

Colo = 2

Gustavsson = 1.5

Bertuzzi = 1.5

Huskins = .5

There's 10 mil right there. Don't tell me we don't have the money or room. We just spend it unwisely. Mind you, this is hindsight for most people. But a good GM, and certainly the proclaimed BEST GM, should have been able to predict that the 35 plus guys and historically fragile guys might not provide a worthwhile ROI.

That being said, the lockout can work to Hollands advantage. If he dumps the garbage, then we will have a chance to jump to light speed just like the imperial fleet.

But you do actually have to have players filling roster spots...

It's not like you can subtract all of those players, add a star and then think your roster is fine. You're talking about losing 6 players for 1. One of which is our backup goalie.

[Guest The Axe]

But you do actually have to have players filling roster spots...

It's not like you can subtract all of those players, add a star and then think your roster is fine. You're talking about losing 6 players for 1. One of which is our backup goalie.

But these guys aren't playing!! That's my whole argument! We are paying them AND the other guys that are actually filling the roster spot/playing.

[Zetts 236]

But these guys aren't playing!! That's my whole argument! We are paying them AND the other guys that are actually filling the roster spot/playing.

Some of them are injured. Yes, you've specifically chosen some of the injured players. Now what happens when we lose 6 players for 1 and start getting injuries next year?

[Guest The Axe]

Some of them are injured. Yes, you've specifically chosen some of the injured players. Now what happens when we lose 6 players for 1 and start getting injuries next year?

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

[Buppy 1,720]

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

Wings fans gripe because they don't follow other teams close enough realize that every team has injuries. In the last four years, we are 11th in man-games lost. And that's with two bad years.

Cola may be "injury-prone", but he's averaged over 67 games the past four years. A bit over 80% of his team's games. Bert's averaged 75, over 90% (78 and 95% in his 3 years with the Wings). Sammy 71, over 85%. To suggest that Holland should have predicted that any, much less all three, would miss almost the entire year is foolish.

More to the point, none of those guys prevented us from signing anyone better. Cola was signed precisely because we couldn't find anyone better. Bert and Sammy were affordable depth scorers, and they're short-term deals. We could have (and tried) signed even Parise and Suter. Would have meant some players would have been cut loose, but the fact that we did try to get them makes it obvious that we would have done so. Neither cap space nor roster space was a factor in who we did or didn't sign.

Trying to build a contender around a pair of older, highly-paid centers who can't score goals and aren't good enough to make stars out of average players, while having a huge question mark for a defense, without the benefit of cheap, young, proven, talent, with next to nothing on the UFA market... not as easy as it sounds. Building one to last is even harder yet.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

Agreed. Type into battle Axe!

[Guest The Axe]

Wings fans gripe because they don't follow other teams close enough realize that every team has injuries. In the last four years, we are 11th in man-games lost. And that's with two bad years.

Cola may be "injury-prone", but he's averaged over 67 games the past four years. A bit over 80% of his team's games. Bert's averaged 75, over 90% (78 and 95% in his 3 years with the Wings). Sammy 71, over 85%. To suggest that Holland should have predicted that any, much less all three, would miss almost the entire year is foolish.

More to the point, none of those guys prevented us from signing anyone better. Cola was signed precisely because we couldn't find anyone better. Bert and Sammy were affordable depth scorers, and they're short-term deals. We could have (and tried) signed even Parise and Suter. Would have meant some players would have been cut loose, but the fact that we did try to get them makes it obvious that we would have done so. Neither cap space nor roster space was a factor in who we did or didn't sign.

Trying to build a contender around a pair of older, highly-paid centers who can't score goals and aren't good enough to make stars out of average players, while having a huge question mark for a defense, without the benefit of cheap, young, proven, talent, with next to nothing on the UFA market... not as easy as it sounds. Building one to last is even harder yet.

Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings. To suggest Dats and Z can't score is absurd. These guys are crippled with crappy players because the GM failed the last off season. Franzen and Brunner are average, and their paychecks prove it. Cleary and Abdelkader are 3rd liners at best, and their paychecks prove it. Asking Z and D to score with these guys is a joke. Our top 6 needs a serious overhaul. 2 guys minimum. 4 guys in reality.

[Nev 1,085]

Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Brown_%28ice_hockey%29

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings. To suggest Dats and Z can't score is absurd. These guys are crippled with crappy players because the GM failed the last off season. Franzen and Brunner are average, and their paychecks prove it. Cleary and Abdelkader are 3rd liners at best, and their paychecks prove it. Asking Z and D to score with these guys is a joke. Our top 6 needs a serious overhaul. 2 guys minimum. 4 guys in reality.

I'd put Brunner and Nyquist in the top 6 and Tatar on the 3rd line. I like the idea someone had of getting Stalberg and Clarkson.

[Guest The Axe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Brown_%28ice_hockey%29

212 points in one year of minors/juniors. I don't care if you're 22 and playing in the senior citizens league, 212 points in one season is off the hook.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

This is basically the truth on the matter. This is how I feel. We took on guys that were pretty injury prone and not really a sure thing anymore and "hoped" that they would be good for us. We don't need anymore of this going forward in the future. I would rather have a young gun out of GR who gives full effort and stays healthy but didn't play 10+ seasons in the league (experience) than an experienced player who is probably on the decline and all indicators point to them regressing further.

[Zetts 236]

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

You actually are spot-picking injured players with your complaints. Prior to ONE season with injury, Samuelsson played 73, 81, 74 and 75 games. Bertuzzi, prior to this year, played 82, 81 and 71 games. Nobody "knew" they'd be injured. Colaiacovo I'll give you because...well...that's impossible to argue.

As for Huskins, he was necessary at the time. He wasn't a bad off-season signing. We were just running into a pile on injuries early in the season.

Replacing Gustavsson isn't really possible while saving money - you need a back-up.

Tootoo, while perhaps slightly overpaid, brings an element we need as a 12/13 forward.

You can't just dump a pile of roster players and say, "see, now we could get a star."

Edited April 19, 2013 by Zetts

[dirtydangles 1,328]

You actually are spot-picking injured players with your complaints. Prior to ONE season with injury, Samuelsson played 73, 81, 74 and 75 games. Bertuzzi, prior to this year, played 82, 81 and 71 games. Nobody "knew" they'd be injured. Colaiacovo I'll give you because...well...that's impossible to argue.

As for Huskins, he was necessary at the time. He wasn't a bad off-season signing. We were just running into a pile on injuries early in the season.

Replacing Gustavsson isn't really possible while saving money - you need a back-up.

Tootoo, while perhaps slightly overpaid, brings an element we need as a 12/13 forward.

You can't just dump a pile of roster players and say, "see, now we could get a star."

Holland offered multi-year deals for old 35+ players and even went so far to give Sammy a NTC. Cola was a dumb idea. So are multi-year deals for 35+ players with NTCs when you have overripe prospects in the minors.

[Wingsfan72 198]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Brown_%28ice_hockey%29

Dem points.

Lemieux was the greatest player in hockey.

That man could have gotten me a regular NHL spot,

[Guest The Axe]

You actually are spot-picking injured players with your complaints. Prior to ONE season with injury, Samuelsson played 73, 81, 74 and 75 games. Bertuzzi, prior to this year, played 82, 81 and 71 games. Nobody "knew" they'd be injured. Colaiacovo I'll give you because...well...that's impossible to argue.

As for Huskins, he was necessary at the time. He wasn't a bad off-season signing. We were just running into a pile on injuries early in the season.

Replacing Gustavsson isn't really possible while saving money - you need a back-up.

Tootoo, while perhaps slightly overpaid, brings an element we need as a 12/13 forward.

You can't just dump a pile of roster players and say, "see, now we could get a star."

Hindsight is always 20/20. But a good GM has 20/20 foresight. I've been against Holland for quite some time now. Holmstrom played 3 seasons for us past his usefulness. Now Bertuzzi, Cleary, White, Samuelson, and Flip are all in the same boat. A good GM sees decline and makes an adjustment immediately. Gland just golfs, eats his little Caesars, and hopes Haakan Andersson and Jim Nill continue to excel at their jobs.

[Zetts 236]

Holland offered multi-year deals for old 35+ players and even went so far to give Sammy a NTC. Cola was a dumb idea. So are multi-year deals for 35+ players with NTCs when you have overripe prospects in the minors.

This isn't what I was saying though. My point has never been that those were particularly good moves or that I wanted them here in the first place.

My argument is around the logistics of claiming that it's wise to ditch 6 players (including your backup goaltender) to get one star player. He's claiming that there's no difference becaues we knew they'd be injured anyways. I'm claiming, in response, that it's dishonest to look at players that you observe to be injured ex post and say that.

Hindsight is always 20/20. But a good GM has 20/20 foresight. I've been against Holland for quite some time now. Holmstrom played 3 seasons for us past his usefulness. Now Bertuzzi, Cleary, White, Samuelson, and Flip are all in the same boat. A good GM sees decline and makes an adjustment immediately. Gland just golfs, eats his little Caesars, and hopes Haakan Andersson and Jim Nill continue to excel at their jobs.

Put this way, I can see where you're coming from. I think you're expecting a bit too much of Holland, but I see what you're saying.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Zetts

[Guest The Axe]

This isn't what I was saying though. My point has never been that those were particularly good moves or that I wanted them here in the first place.

My argument is around the logistics of claiming that it's wise to ditch 6 players (including your backup goaltender) to get one star player. He's claiming that there's no difference becaues we knew they'd be injured anyways. I'm claiming, in response, that it's dishonest to look at players that you observe to be injured ex post and say that.

Put this way, I can see where you're coming from. I think you're expecting a bit too much of Holland, but I see what you're saying.

I see your side of it, too, brother. You make a good point and your facts back it up very strongly.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Hindsight is always 20/20. But a good GM has 20/20 foresight. I've been against Holland for quite some time now. Holmstrom played 3 seasons for us past his usefulness. Now Bertuzzi, Cleary, White, Samuelson, and Flip are all in the same boat. A good GM sees decline and makes an adjustment immediately. Gland just golfs, eats his little Caesars, and hopes Haakan Andersson and Jim Nill continue to excel at their jobs.

It's funny because I agree with you about Holmstrom playing past the point that he should have, and it's interesting to note that even then he scored more often than any of our current wingers sans Franzen. In his last three seasons he scored 25, 18, and 11 goals. I'd kill for that kind of goal scoring in our top six right about now haha.

[Guest The Axe]

It's funny because I agree with you about Holmstrom playing past the point that he should have, and it's interesting to note that even then he scored more often than any of our current wingers sans Franzen. In his last three seasons he scored 25, 18, and 11 goals. I'd kill for that kind of goal scoring in our top six right about now haha.

He looks like Jari Kurri compared to Cleary, doesn't he!!!

[Buppy 1,720]

Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings. To suggest Dats and Z can't score is absurd. These guys are crippled with crappy players because the GM failed the last off season. Franzen and Brunner are average, and their paychecks prove it. Cleary and Abdelkader are 3rd liners at best, and their paychecks prove it. Asking Z and D to score with these guys is a joke. Our top 6 needs a serious overhaul. 2 guys minimum. 4 guys in reality.

I said they can't score goals. By that I mean they both seem to be around 20-25g. And you're kind of proving my point. They're not good enough to turn average players into stars. Nothing really wrong with that; few players ever have been. I point it out because it makes it that much tougher to build a team. If we need four 30g wingers, we're probably out of luck. Couldn't afford it in free agency, even if there were 4 available. Nor do we have the trade assets, even if we completely empty the cupboards (which would leave no cheap depth to fill the rest of the roster anyway).

We need to be able to score, even if our top-6 has a couple of guys that can only pot 15-20. Cleary and Abby have 9g apiece. Franzen has 10, Brunner 11, Flip 7...Tatar, Nyquist, and Bert combined have 9 in what has essentially been the same roster spot. That's pretty good scoring depth. That's 7 players with 9 or more, plus 1 with 7.

For comparison, the Blackhawks also have 7 players with 9 and one with 7. In fact, looking at the entire forward corps of both teams, taking out Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen for the Wings, and Kane, Toews, and Hossa for the Hawks... our forwards have scored just one fewer goal. Paid similar money too; we're a little under a million more. Injuries close to balanced. Bolland and Flip roughly equal out. We've had more injuries, but they've had Sharp out for a while. Our replacements have done better. It's a very minor difference. Add in Franzen and Hossa (both have missed 7 games) and the difference is 8 goals, and now the Hawks spending slightly more.

Pav and Hank have 22. Kane and Toews have 42.

It's reasonable to think we could upgrade one of the others enough to offset the 8g difference there. Not so much the other 20g at the top. We need that depth scoring. Need guys like Cleary, Abby, Bert and Sammy who can fill a role on a top line at a fairly cheap price. We can afford one upgrade, and maybe make one other swap for someone of a similar level but who fits better. No guarantees that we can find either, and no guarantees it would be enough, so we don't want to spend to much (in cap commitment or trade) to try for it.

[Nev 1,085]

212 points in one year of minors/juniors. I don't care if you're 22 and playing in the senior citizens league, 212 points in one season is off the hook.

Did you know Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals in junior?

Buppy - great post, very informative, and kinda backs up what Holland has been saying ie we have plenty of depth but not enough star power in our top 6.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I said they can't score goals. By that I mean they both seem to be around 20-25g. And you're kind of proving my point. They're not good enough to turn average players into stars. Nothing really wrong with that; few players ever have been. I point it out because it makes it that much tougher to build a team. If we need four 30g wingers, we're probably out of luck. Couldn't afford it in free agency, even if there were 4 available. Nor do we have the trade assets, even if we completely empty the cupboards (which would leave no cheap depth to fill the rest of the roster anyway).

We need to be able to score, even if our top-6 has a couple of guys that can only pot 15-20. Cleary and Abby have 9g apiece. Franzen has 10, Brunner 11, Flip 7...Tatar, Nyquist, and Bert combined have 9 in what has essentially been the same roster spot. That's pretty good scoring depth. That's 7 players with 9 or more, plus 1 with 7.

For comparison, the Blackhawks also have 7 players with 9 and one with 7. In fact, looking at the entire forward corps of both teams, taking out Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen for the Wings, and Kane, Toews, and Hossa for the Hawks... our forwards have scored just one fewer goal. Paid similar money too; we're a little under a million more. Injuries close to balanced. Bolland and Flip roughly equal out. We've had more injuries, but they've had Sharp out for a while. Our replacements have done better. It's a very minor difference. Add in Franzen and Hossa (both have missed 7 games) and the difference is 8 goals, and now the Hawks spending slightly more.

Pav and Hank have 22. Kane and Toews have 42.

It's reasonable to think we could upgrade one of the others enough to offset the 8g difference there. Not so much the other 20g at the top. We need that depth scoring. Need guys like Cleary, Abby, Bert and Sammy who can fill a role on a top line at a fairly cheap price. We can afford one upgrade, and maybe make one other swap for someone of a similar level but who fits better. No guarantees that we can find either, and no guarantees it would be enough, so we don't want to spend to much (in cap commitment or trade) to try for it.

Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though? You can't really double team either of those guys when they're on the ice because Hossa and Sharp can beat you on their own if you don't take them seriously. I think both Pav and Hank's numbers are low because teams have figured out that the Wings can't beat you when Pav or Hank are kept off the board. You can't do that with Chicago. By having real depth in their forward core it opens up the ice for the stars as well.

Edited April 20, 2013 by kipwinger

[Red Crazy 201]

I have a feeling that both Holland and Babcock are going to blame injuries and Lidstrom retiring if the Red Wings miss the playoffs. I feel this will be a complete cop out if it happens. No other teams have Lidstrom either and there are a lot of teams that have had more quality players out then the Wings and they are still in the playoffs ( Ottawa). The forwards need a major overhaul this coming off season. You can't win games without scoring and without heart. Z and Pav cannot carry this team. Holland needs to step to the plate this summer or be shown the door. My list of forwards that can go- Cleary, Fil, Sammy, Eaves, Miller. Not because they are bad just because we need better.

[Buppy 1,720]

Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though? You can't really double team either of those guys when they're on the ice because Hossa and Sharp can beat you on their own if you don't take them seriously. I think both Pav and Hank's numbers are low because teams have figured out that the Wings can't beat you when Pav or Hank are kept off the board. You can't do that with Chicago. By having real depth in their forward core it opens up the ice for the stars as well.

As I pointed out in my post, they don't really have any more depth than we do. Sharp's been out almost half the year, Hossa missed 7. Saad, Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Shaw... none of them are really any better than what we have, none of them have as many goals as Brunner, and only Saad matches Franzen. More likely I think is that Kane and Toews add more to those guys than those guys add to Kane and Toews.

Upgrading a couple of our forwards to Sharp and Hossa level would help, I'm sure. But I wouldn't expect it to double Pav and Hank's output. Particularly not if the one's you upgrade are Franzen and Filppula, as you'd likely need to do to make it work under the cap.