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nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM


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#61 RedWingAbner

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:00 PM

Was this article posted on April 1st?

 

Was it in the satire section?

 

Ken Holland.....and the phrase "best GM".....should have a minimum 3-sentence separation, required by law.  (Which I just broke).

 

The parity of this league means that with shrewd management, any team can win in any year.  Ken Holland has let this team crumble, afraid to do anything of significance, and a could-have-been dynasty has been reduced to the rubble of mediocrity.

 

There is no more "rebuilding" in this league, save for the horrendous cases (Edmonton).  In any given year, a team can make a few shrewd moves and win.  If Holland was as good as people say he is, given the core we had, we should've been MORE successful.  Pointing to the team's success and saying, "well, it was still better than most" is a cop-out to the fact that it should've been better. 



#62 esteef

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:12 PM

Agree to disagree I suppose, while I do agree Kenny has made some questionable signings, I like that we are rebuilding and still within reach of a playoff position, and with a deep draft upcoming I am happy he didn't trade our picks away anyways. We all would love to see the wings win another cup, but I would rather it not come at the expense of our teams future. Nyquist is looking great, Tatar had a great run, Sheahan will be a great physical grinder. We have Frk, Pulkinin, Jurco, Sproul, Ouellet, Mrazek, Patterson and others in the pipeline that could potentially be stars one day, so I like the way our future team could look.

For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

Edited by esteef, 14 April 2013 - 01:13 PM.

"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#63 Euro_Twins

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:26 PM

For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

 

Like I said, we can agree to disagree, we both have our opinions, and we are both too stubborn to change them :)



#64 evilmrt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

Huh, woke up this morning to see that the Wings lost their playoff spot and are now in 9th.
Kenny is the bestest.

#65 The Axe

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:39 PM

 
Like I said, we can agree to disagree, we both have our opinions, and we are both too stubborn to change them :)


I love that about this place!!

I side with esteef, though. Holland's recent track record is a lot of money on a lot of mediocre players. I think most would rather see a lot of money on a few all stars. All the excuses in the world can be made for Holland, but he FAILED this past off season. Semin, Carole, Parise, and Suter went elsewhere. Pittsburgh just landed Morrow and Iginla. Dekeyser is a great free bee, but he wanted to be here. Not Kenny's play there. D- to Holland over last 3 years.

#66 Euro_Twins

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

I love that about this place!!

I side with esteef, though. Holland's recent track record is a lot of money on a lot of mediocre players. I think most would rather see a lot of money on a few all stars. All the excuses in the world can be made for Holland, but he FAILED this past off season. Semin, Carole, Parise, and Suter went elsewhere. Pittsburgh just landed Morrow and Iginla. Dekeyser is a great free bee, but he wanted to be here. Not Kenny's play there. D- to Holland over last 3 years.

 

ya but your post sort of contradicts itself, Dekeyser is great but he wanted to be here, well suter and parise wanted to be in minnesota... 



#67 Ally

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

If I see another post about Holland's "failure" to sign Parise/Suter I'm going to light my eyes on fire.
Parise wanted to go home. Suter is in love with Parise and didn't want to do long distance.
Not Kenny's fault.

 
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#68 Buppy

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

So who would be the best?

 

There isn't a GM in the league that has faced the kind of losses we have and done any better at staying competetive. Most haven't been around long enough to try rebuilding on the fly and/or never even built a team successful enough in the first place.


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#69 Euro_Twins

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

So who would be the best?

 

There isn't a GM in the league that has faced the kind of losses we have and done any better at staying competetive. Most haven't been around long enough to try rebuilding on the fly and/or never even built a team successful enough in the first place.

 

everyone points to pittsburgh, but they fail to remember what that team was before he who shall not be named came into the picture, when they were almost bankrupt...



#70 RedWingAbner

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:18 PM

The argument "Ken Holland doesn't suck because there are GMs who suck more" doesn't work.

 

If people are going to credit him for the old system's success, then you can give credit to Shero for constructing a team for the new system.

 

Holland has been an abject failure since the cap was implemented; I refuse to credit the 2008 championship to him considering something close to 60% of that team was Hakan Andersson finds.



#71 FlashyG

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:45 AM

The argument "Ken Holland doesn't suck because there are GMs who suck more" doesn't work.

 

If people are going to credit him for the old system's success, then you can give credit to Shero for constructing a team for the new system.

 

Holland has been an abject failure since the cap was implemented; I refuse to credit the 2008 championship to him considering something close to 60% of that team was Hakan Andersson finds.

 

The new system had nothing to do with Shero constructing his team in fact Ray Shero had little to do with constructing that team, being terrible for a long period of time constructed that team for him. He took over a team that had selected in the top 5, 5 years in a row, with 4 of them being in the top 2. The biggest adversity he's had to face was a problem of his own making when he had to trade Staal away because he couldn't fit all his top 5 picks under the salary cap. Let's see him rebuild the team when those players start retiring, and have him do so without the luxury of having any top 15 draft picks and without missing the playoffs. Maybe then he can start being compared to Holland.


Also if Holland doesn't get any credit for the teams draft choices because he employs a scout who recommends which players to pick, then no team's GM should ever get credit for a draft choice. They all employ scouts.

 

Below is a list of players drafted while Holland was in charge of amateur scouting. If I follow your logic Holland should get credit for the cups in 97, 98 and 2002 since he drafted the core of those teams. He also made several trades in those years that provided key parts to those cup winning teams.

 

Yves Racine

Sheldon Kennedy

Mike Sillinger

Nicklas Lidstrom

Sergei Fedorov

Dallas Drake

Vladimir Konstantinov

Keith Primeau

Slava Kozlov

Jason York

Martin Lapointe

Jamie Pushor

Chris Osgood

Mike Knuble

Darren McCarty

Dan McGillis

Anders Eriksson

Mathieu Dandenault

Tomas Holmstrom

 
Holland is the best GM in the history of the franchise, arguably the best in the history of the NHL, and a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Fame Inductee.


#72 The Axe

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:32 AM

Holland shouldn't be discredited as having nothing to do with the Red Wings winning ways, but I wouldn't put him at the top for credit.

#73 Crymson

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:36 AM

For the "Best GM in the league" winning now and nurturing the future shouldn't be mutually exclusive. To not make any signifcant moves to better the chances of winning for the current team for the past couple of years and just say "but our farm looks good" is as the above poster said, a copout.

esteef

 

So he needs to rebuild the farm for the first time in 20 years AND spend assets on the present? And it's entirely his fault when there aren't many good free agents---an effect of the CBA---and when extra considerations spur the two of note to another team? And he must do all of this is a system that constantly works against consistent success?

 

The guy isn't perfect, but you're arguing that his performance needs to reside in the realm of the miraculous. You should consider lowering your expectations.


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#74 Crymson

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:52 AM

The argument "Ken Holland doesn't suck because there are GMs who suck more" doesn't work.

 

Then by your definition, there is one good GM and the rest of them are terrible. That's an odd way of seeing things.

 

If people are going to credit him for the old system's success, then you can give credit to Shero for constructing a team for the new system.

 

The Red Wings have still, to this day, had more playoffs success in the post-lockout era than any other team. While the Wings have won only one Cup, Holland has been the only GM able to maintain momentum from before the lockout through six seasons afterward.

 

Ray Shero did not construct the current Penguins team; and if you're using the Pens as an example of how to build a team in the salary cap era, then you are advocating a course of action by which a team should be terrible for several seasons in order to garner lottery draft picks. Shero inherited Malkin, Crosby, and Fleury from the Pens' long stretch in the doghouse, and upon entering office promptly had the 2nd-overall pick to spend on Staal. To sum up, Shero started off with two of the top five forwards on the planet in his system at entry-level salaries, amongst others. He inherited a team that also already included Orpik, Talbot, Malone, Whitney, Gonchar, Letang, Kenneday and Scuderi. He traded Whitney for Kunitz, yes, and he fleeced Niuewendyk in the deal for Neal. But other than that, his moves as GM have not been very noteworthy, and not a single one of his draft picks (Staal excepted) has yet made an impact in the NHL. And whatever the case, the core for his team's success was absolutely, indisputably in place already when he took the job as GM in 2006.

 

Holland has been an abject failure since the cap was implemented; I refuse to credit the 2008 championship to him considering something close to 60% of that team was Hakan Andersson finds.

 

I'm not sure what else to do but shake my head at this.



#75 Red Crazy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:42 AM

Holland has done great things for the Red Wings there is no doubting that. But he has also failed to land a sniper for the last three seasons. Hossa should have been signed. The Red Wings have a fairly deep prospect pool and I am sure a couple of those guys could have been moved to land a player that can put the puck in the net. Holland at times could be better but I am sure that you could say that about 29 other GM's



#76 esteef

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:02 AM

So he needs to rebuild the farm for the first time in 20 years AND spend assets on the present? And it's entirely his fault when there aren't many good free agents---an effect of the CBA---and when extra considerations spur the two of note to another team? And he must do all of this is a system that constantly works against consistent success?

 

The guy isn't perfect, but you're arguing that his performance needs to reside in the realm of the miraculous. You should consider lowering your expectations.

 

Typical.  But but but everyone's against him!  But but there's no good players!  Poor Kenny Holland!  There were players available, Kenny's just too cheap and too in love with his players to make a move and tarnish that reputation that the talking heads on tv keep bringing up from years past.  Kenny's record as a whole looks good, but the last 3-4 years, no so much.

 

esteef


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#77 Buppy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:33 AM

The argument "Ken Holland doesn't suck because there are GMs who suck more" doesn't work. ...

Actually, if the question is "Who is the best GM in the league?", it does. Even if you think he does suck, if all the other GMs suck more then Holland is still the best.

 

Holland has done great things for the Red Wings there is no doubting that. But he has also failed to land a sniper for the last three seasons. Hossa should have been signed. The Red Wings have a fairly deep prospect pool and I am sure a couple of those guys could have been moved to land a player that can put the puck in the net. Holland at times could be better but I am sure that you could say that about 29 other GM's

Hossa hasn't hit 30g since he left. In the 4 years he's been with Chicago, he's scored a grand total of 17 more goals than Franzen. Combined with the playoffs, just 13 more. 3-4 more goals a season wouldn't solve anything. The difference is not what it's made out to be.

 

We do have enough prospects that we could afford to move a couple, but it's not that simple. There's two sides to a trade. There has to be another team that has something we want and likes what we have to offer more than they like any other offers they get.

 

Beyond that, which prospects do you move? We have a lot, but most still need to prove they can play in the NHL. Not all of them will. Of all our prospects, if even half of them become regular NHL players it will be a success. We could trade away a couple and see them turn out to be the "good ones" of the bunch, while we get a guy who probably doesn't make much difference now and even less in the future. Add some high-priced sniper and we have to let Flip go (or even include him in the trade), Pav and Hank will still be aging, and we'd have fewer prospects and thus a lower chance of one of them being able to step in and contribute.

 

I'm not saying a trade would be terrible, or couldn't work out. Just that you can't assume that a trade is always available and that it will work out the way you hope.



#78 xtrememachine1

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:22 PM

Since 2010 here are the players Holland has signed, re-signed, or traded:

 

Traded Ville Leino for Ole-Kristian Tollefsen

Traded C Kris Newbury to the N.Y. Rangers for LW Jordan Owens.

Signed D Brendan Smith to a three-year contract.

Signed D Nicklas Lidstrom to a one-year contract.
Agreed to terms with F Tomas Holmstrom on a two-year contract.
Re-signed F Patrick Eaves to a one-year contract.
Re-signed F Drew Miller to a one-year contract.
Re-signed D Derek Meech to a one-year contract.
Agreed to terms with F Mike Modano on a one-year contract.
Re-signed F Darren Helm to a two-year contract.
Agreed to terms with F Justin Abdelkader on a two-year contract.
Signed F Kirk Maltby to a one-year contract.
Re-Signed G Jimmy Howard to a two-year contract.
Agreed to terms with D Jonathan Ericsson
Signed D Mike Commodore
Agreed to terms with G Joey MacDonald on a two-year contract.
Signed G Ty Conklin to a one-year contract.
Re-signed G Jordan Pearce to a two-year contract.
Signed F Fabian Brunnstrom to a one-year contract.
Signed G Petr Mrazek to a three-year entry-level contract.
Agreed to terms with D Niklas Kronwall on a seven-year contract.
Re-signed F Todd Bertuzzi.
Traded D Mike Commodore to Tampa Bay for a conditional 2013 seventh-round draft pick. 
Signed D Xavier Ouellet and D Ryan Sproul to three-year, entry-level contracts.
Signed C Riley Sheahan to a three-year contract.
Signed F Teemu Pulkkinen to a three-year entry-level contract.
Traded 1st round pick for Kyle Quincey.
Signed F Martin Frk to a three-year, entry-level contract.
Signed F Tomas Jurco to a three-year, entry-level contract.
Agreed to terms with G Jonas Gustavsson on a two-year contract
Signed Jordin Tootoo to a three year contact
Signed Mikael Samuelsson to a 3 year contract
Signed Damien Brunner to a one year contact

Signed Carlo Colaiacovo

Signed Kent Huskins

 

So he's really good at signing players that were already wearing the Winged Wheel.  That's something.  But these other signings.  Entry level contracts, low risk gambles, and bad trades shouldn't put him above other GMs in this league.  Its not hard to look at this list and understand why the team is finishing lower and lower and is now in danger of missing the playoffs.  



#79 Buppy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

...

So he's really good at signing players that were already wearing the Winged Wheel.  That's something.  But these other signings.  Entry level contracts, low risk gambles, and bad trades shouldn't put him above other GMs in this league.  Its not hard to look at this list and understand why the team is finishing lower and lower and is now in danger of missing the playoffs.  

 

What puts him above other GMs is the 14 straight years 7th or higher in points, 9th or higher in the standings. 10 of those years (Including 9 straight) 3rd overall or better. None of Chicago, Pittsburgh, or Boston have managed to finish top-3 even two years in a row, and that's with their best players still improving.

 

That we have struggled to replace some top players and valuable role-players while more of our best players are in decline shouldn't drop him below other GMs. This decline (or even worse) is what should've been expected. Avoiding it would have been remarkable. More than that even, since we already retooled the team twice without any real drop-off. Three times in a row without a glitch would have been near miraculous. Instead, that's what most of you expect.


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#80 RedWingAbner

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:31 PM

The new system had nothing to do with Shero constructing his team in fact Ray Shero had little to do with constructing that team, being terrible for a long period of time constructed that team for him. He took over a team that had selected in the top 5, 5 years in a row, with 4 of them being in the top 2. The biggest adversity he's had to face was a problem of his own making when he had to trade Staal away because he couldn't fit all his top 5 picks under the salary cap. Let's see him rebuild the team when those players start retiring, and have him do so without the luxury of having any top 15 draft picks and without missing the playoffs. Maybe then he can start being compared to Holland.


Also if Holland doesn't get any credit for the teams draft choices because he employs a scout who recommends which players to pick, then no team's GM should ever get credit for a draft choice. They all employ scouts.

 

Below is a list of players drafted while Holland was in charge of amateur scouting. If I follow your logic Holland should get credit for the cups in 97, 98 and 2002 since he drafted the core of those teams. He also made several trades in those years that provided key parts to those cup winning teams.

 

Yves Racine

Sheldon Kennedy

Mike Sillinger

Nicklas Lidstrom

Sergei Fedorov

Dallas Drake

Vladimir Konstantinov

Keith Primeau

Slava Kozlov

Jason York

Martin Lapointe

Jamie Pushor

Chris Osgood

Mike Knuble

Darren McCarty

Dan McGillis

Anders Eriksson

Mathieu Dandenault

Tomas Holmstrom

 
Holland is the best GM in the history of the franchise, arguably the best in the history of the NHL, and a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Fame Inductee.

 

No.  Look at the list of North American names on that list.  They are the players taken in the first 3 rounds.  They are also players Holland personally saw before the Wings drafted them.  It's not hard to hit an NHLer with the first three rounds, and Jesus, during his tenure as head of scouting, our 1st-3rd round drafts were spotty.  Curtis Bowen, Kory Kocur, Jesse Wallin ring a bell?  Throw in the fact that guys like Sillinger, Pushor, etc were high round picks.....whew, glad we had Kenny at the helm for those picks. 

 

Players in the 5th round on are players he (usually) didn't see play and were found by Hakan Andersson.  Hakan Andersson has made Holland look really good for a really long time.

 

What, again, has Ken Holland done SINCE the implementation of the salary cap?  He held together a Hakan Andersson found team for a while, then slowly let it crumble away.  The biggest move he's made post-lockout #1?  Bertuzzi?  (I distinctly remember Marian Hossa's agent was the one who called Holland in 2008, and pitched the one-year deal).  Beyond that, it's been a recurring cycle of re-acquiring players who didn't work the first time (Hello, Todd Gill.....Mikael Samuelsson.....Kyle Quincey......Jason Williams.....Ty Conklin.....Joey MacDonald.....)







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