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nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM


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#81 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

No.  Look at the list of North American names on that list.  They are the players taken in the first 3 rounds.  They are also players Holland personally saw before the Wings drafted them.  It's not hard to hit an NHLer with the first three rounds, and Jesus, during his tenure as head of scouting, our 1st-3rd round drafts were spotty.  Curtis Bowen, Kory Kocur, Jesse Wallin ring a bell?  Throw in the fact that guys like Sillinger, Pushor, etc were high round picks.....whew, glad we had Kenny at the helm for those picks. 

 

Players in the 5th round on are players he (usually) didn't see play and were found by Hakan Andersson.  Hakan Andersson has made Holland look really good for a really long time.

 

What, again, has Ken Holland done SINCE the implementation of the salary cap?  He held together a Hakan Andersson found team for a while, then slowly let it crumble away.  The biggest move he's made post-lockout #1?  Bertuzzi?  (I distinctly remember Marian Hossa's agent was the one who called Holland in 2008, and pitched the one-year deal).  Beyond that, it's been a recurring cycle of re-acquiring players who didn't work the first time (Hello, Todd Gill.....Mikael Samuelsson.....Kyle Quincey......Jason Williams.....Ty Conklin.....Joey MacDonald.....)

Can't say I saw much of all those players but can you please tell me how players like Sammy and Conklin didn't work the first time around? Because one wasn't a top 6, 70 point scorer and one wasn't a stand-on-his-head starter who stole every game? Sammy was clutch, scored good points on a line with great chemistry, and at a snip. Conklin was a backup who helped us to a second consecutive Stanley Cup final. I think they worked first time out. Quincey is a moot point considering he was a prospect when we lost him. You can't really say he didn't work out first time around either.

 

Brunner, Dekeyser and Tootoo have not been a waste of time, just because he makes a few mistakes does not mean you need focus all your attention on them. Would you rather he sell the farm to get a couple rentals?

 

all these "big name" teams right now will not win the cup, maybe one will, but think about how many of them will be losing pieces next year, Vancouver, Chicago, NYR, Minnesota, Montreal, Pittsburgh, San Jose,and especially Philly desperately need to lose 2-6 million in cap space next season, all these big trades and signings only help them this year and maybe next, but these teams trade away a bunch of picks, and prospects to get all these players the LGW gm's say we should have gotten and they won't be nearly as good next year, whereas we will have some cap space, and won't have the issue of desperately trying to get under the cap, if you ask me, Kenny was smart to not be taken like a fool for a rental or two. And no we didn't need Bouwmeester, and Dekeyser is looking great

 

Is it just me, or is this statement the most obvious/pretty redundant statement there is? :P In jest of course, but I'd like your crystal ball which says not all the big teams will win it, but maybe one will. Lol I think 4 teams will win the cup this year! Hehe again I jest.


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#82 The Axe

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:34 PM

Can't say I saw much of all those players but can you please tell me how players like Sammy and Conklin didn't work the first time around? Because one wasn't a top 6, 70 point scorer and one wasn't a stand-on-his-head starter who stole every game? Sammy was clutch, scored good points on a line with great chemistry, and at a snip. Conklin was a backup who helped us to a second consecutive Stanley Cup final. I think they worked first time out. Quincey is a moot point considering he was a prospect when we lost him. You can't really say he didn't work out first time around either.
 
 
Is it just me, or is this statement the most obvious/pretty redundant statement there is? :P In jest of course, but I'd like your crystal ball which says not all the big teams will win it, but maybe one will. Lol I think 4 teams will win the cup this year! Hehe again I jest.


Out of all those big name teams, a few should make the finals. Maybe not all of them, but I'd say at least 2.

Ha

Kenny needs to pull off some good moves this summer. He can save his hide if he can get Flip for 3.5, Ryan for 7 mil, and Horton for 5 mil.

#83 kipwinger

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

So who would be the best?

 

There isn't a GM in the league that has faced the kind of losses we have and done any better at staying competetive. Most haven't been around long enough to try rebuilding on the fly and/or never even built a team successful enough in the first place.

 

The thing is, we were less and less competitive before all of our major losses.  We had two early exits from the playoffs before Rafalski retired and three before losing Stuart and Lidstrom.  They were already trending downward before the losses and they're continuing that trajectory in the wake of said absences. 

 

In one sense I suppose you're right, we're close to making the playoffs so we are competitive to an extent, but on the other hand I have a hard time feeling like we're all that competitive when we're competing with Dallas and Columbus for a playoffs spot and we're barely above .500. 

 

I'm not trying to be contradictory or anything, obviously no other GM has Ken Holland's resume, but to say he's currently the best GM in hockey is sort of a nod to his cumulative career and not because of anything he's done recently...which, of course, is nothing. 


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#84 Buppy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

The thing is, we were less and less competitive before all of our major losses.  We had two early exits from the playoffs before Rafalski retired and three before losing Stuart and Lidstrom.  They were already trending downward before the losses and they're continuing that trajectory in the wake of said absences. 

 

In one sense I suppose you're right, we're close to making the playoffs so we are competitive to an extent, but on the other hand I have a hard time feeling like we're all that competitive when we're competing with Dallas and Columbus for a playoffs spot and we're barely above .500. 

 

I'm not trying to be contradictory or anything, obviously no other GM has Ken Holland's resume, but to say he's currently the best GM in hockey is sort of a nod to his cumulative career and not because of anything he's done recently...which, of course, is nothing. 

And in that same time, we lost Hudler (for a year) and Sammy, and more importantly Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Rafalski, and Lidstrom all in decline. (Most notably Hank's goal production.) Plus losing a handful of role-players. Most everyone else stayed around the same level.

 

And while we may have been less competetive, there were points in each of the last three years when we were either at or near the top of the league or at least playing like one of the best teams in the league for an extended period.

 

Again, the decline should be expected. It's been a fairly slow decline, and will probably continue for a few more years. Avoiding it should be considered remarkable, not the expectation.

 

Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Boston have combined for 1 series win in 7 tries since they won their Cups. Wings have 5 in 9. 2 in 5 if you take out '09. All of them still have almost all their key players, and almost all of them have been improving. Prior to this year, none of them have been notably better than us in the regular season.

 

By the same standard you use for Holland, they have all declined just as much, only much quicker and with far less reason. That they have rebounded so quickly should be tempered by the notion that they probably shouldn't have dropped as quickly (or at all) in the first place. Maybe that points to something they did wrong in originally building their teams, or something Kenny did right.

 

Maybe when judging a GM, you need to look at the big picture rather than just the recent headlines. Maybe you need to have some realistic expectations rather than basing your criticisms on suppositions and hypotheticals.

 

A realistic rebuild is probably 4 years to go from bad to contender. Maybe a few more years to tweak from there. We have not yet been "bad". How long you should stay a contender is debatable. I'd say anything over a decade is probably more than you should expect. There shouldn't be any expectation of rebuilding a contender into another contender without ever hitting "bad", since it almost never happens. We have a chance to do it (again). Maybe, probably even, it won't work. But I don't mind a few mediocre seasons while we try.



#85 Nev

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:33 AM

What, again, has Ken Holland done SINCE the implementation of the salary cap?  He held together a Hakan Andersson found team for a while, then slowly let it crumble away.  The biggest move he's made post-lockout #1?  Bertuzzi?  (I distinctly remember Marian Hossa's agent was the one who called Holland in 2008, and pitched the one-year deal).  Beyond that, it's been a recurring cycle of re-acquiring players who didn't work the first time (Hello, Todd Gill.....Mikael Samuelsson.....Kyle Quincey......Jason Williams.....Ty Conklin.....Joey MacDonald.....)

 

Brian Rafalski, Brad Stuart and Danny Markov all say hi :bye1: As does Dallas Drake, who coincidentally is one of those re-acquired players you complain about, but also ironically considered by some on this board to have been the second coming of Jesus and the single most important player on the '08 Cup roster.  Even more ironically, some of the people who claimed that are also the ones most critical of Holland in this thread :innocent:


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#86 RedWingAbner

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

The Drake re-acquisition worked.  Danny Markov?  Really?  That one "glorious" season made you nostalgic?

 

Brad Stuart, yes, I'll give credit there---good pickup, good price.  But he is also an example of how Holland craps the bed.  Stuart left this past summer, and what did Ken do?  ......crickets......Carlo Colaiacovo? 

 

Brian Rafalski......that's a whole 'nother topic. 



#87 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:50 AM

At least we don't have the Oilers' all-star lineup running our team right now.  :punk:


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#88 AtomicPunk

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:38 AM

I dont think there is any way you can call Kenny "the best" just by looking at the group he signed this year. He has done well in the past but in the last few years I would not say he has. The team is in danger of falling into rebuilding mode hard if Dats, Howard and Z were not here. I don't consider that a great GM.


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#89 Crymson

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:48 AM

The Drake re-acquisition worked.  Danny Markov?  Really?  That one "glorious" season made you nostalgic?

 

Brad Stuart, yes, I'll give credit there---good pickup, good price.  But he is also an example of how Holland craps the bed.  Stuart left this past summer, and what did Ken do?  ......crickets......Carlo Colaiacovo? 

 

Brian Rafalski......that's a whole 'nother topic. 

 

I see you've completely ignored my informational piece about Shero. 


The Drake re-acquisition worked.  Danny Markov?  Really?  That one "glorious" season made you nostalgic?

 

Brad Stuart, yes, I'll give credit there---good pickup, good price.  But he is also an example of how Holland craps the bed.  Stuart left this past summer, and what did Ken do?  ......crickets......Carlo Colaiacovo? 

 

Brian Rafalski......that's a whole 'nother topic. 

 

I see you've completely ignored my informational piece about Shero. 

 

I dont think there is any way you can call Kenny "the best" just by looking at the group he signed this year. He has done well in the past but in the last few years I would not say he has. The team is in danger of falling into rebuilding mode hard if Dats, Howard and Z were not here. I don't consider that a great GM.

 

You might as well say that any team would be in danger of falling into rebuilding mode if its three best players would suddenly disappear. And guess what: the team is in rebuilding mode. And we're lucky that it's being done on the fly rather than through sliding into the doghouse as has been the case with almost every single other team over the past decade.

 

As for last offseason: exactly who was there available besides Suter and Parise, whose decision to play with Minnesota was out of anyone's control, and a Semin whom nobody but Carolina was willing to give a chance to?


The thing is, we were less and less competitive before all of our major losses.  We had two early exits from the playoffs before Rafalski retired and three before losing Stuart and Lidstrom.  They were already trending downward before the losses and they're continuing that trajectory in the wake of said absences. 

 

Ah, only a Red Wings fan could be sore about the 19th and 20th straight appearances in the playoffs, which came on the heels of a trip to the conference finals, a Cup, and another trip to the finals, be exits in the second round. Never mind that the second one of those was, to that point, the closest series in NHL history. Nothing's good enough for you, is it? Believe it or not, no GM in the league beats that.

 

In one sense I suppose you're right, we're close to making the playoffs so we are competitive to an extent, but on the other hand I have a hard time feeling like we're all that competitive when we're competing with Dallas and Columbus for a playoffs spot and we're barely above .500. 

 

How many times must it be said that the team is currently rebuilding from within? How many times must it be noted that this team has been ravaged with more injuries than any other in the league?

 

I'm not trying to be contradictory or anything, obviously no other GM has Ken Holland's resume, but to say he's currently the best GM in hockey is sort of a nod to his cumulative career and not because of anything he's done recently...which, of course, is nothing. 

 

Believe it or not, not every GM can provide constant success. Go ahead and measure his resume against anyone's over the past six years, even. Who gets more points? The Sharks? Your expectations seem to be a bit high. This is apparently not unusual for Red Wings fans. Frankly it makes me sad that the team's long-term success has made many of its fans unable to be appreciative of anything but the ultimate success. Your style of thought on Holland seems to be that if he's not delivering constant deep runs into the playoffs, he's a failure. This is a wildly unrealistic viewpoint.


Edited by Crymson, 16 April 2013 - 11:52 AM.


#90 Carman

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:02 PM

Believe it or not, not every GM can provide constant success. Go ahead and measure his resume against anyone's over the past six years, even. Who gets more points? The Sharks? Your expectations seem to be a bit high. This is apparently not unusual for Red Wings fans. Frankly it makes me sad that the team's long-term success has made many of its fans unable to be appreciative of anything but the ultimate success. Your style of thought on Holland seems to be that if he's not delivering constant deep runs into the playoffs, he's a failure. This is a wildly unrealistic viewpoint.

 

 

You never go broke making a profit. It's good to have high expectations, it's bad when you don't appreciate how good you have it even if it doesn't reach your expectations. If we start missing the playoffs, and start getting #1-5 overall picks, then these are performances that should be taken to action. There is nothing wrong with being where we are. What's a problem is if we replace Holland with someone that will most likely be worse.

 

You have to compare Holland to his competition, and when you do you realize there really isn't anyone at there that much better. Especially that would be available. Critique his moves, I didn't like him going after Quincey, I didn't like him not finding a way to keep Hossa, but even though I disagreed with those, there are 100's of other choices that he's made that ended up helping this team.

 

This really reminds me of baseball managers, they have to make a ton of decisions, and no one gives credit if it's the right call, but if someone blows a save it's the end of the world. And forget about blaming players for not performing, it's much easier to point at the guy off the field that put him in that position.


Edited by Carman, 16 April 2013 - 07:03 PM.


#91 AtomicPunk

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:30 AM

This team's strength used to be its scoring depth. Not any more. I would say that reflects on the GM.


Edited by AtomicPunk, 17 April 2013 - 08:30 AM.

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#92 The Axe

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:27 AM

This team's strength used to be its scoring depth. Not any more. I would say that reflects on the GM.


Exactly. This is why I'm giving Holland another year to prove me wrong. The goalie and D have shored up, and I will credit Holland 100% for that. But if we spent all our cap dollars to lose by 1 goal every night in low scoring games, I will come down on Holland after a while. I can take a few seasons of that, bug its really frustrating to watch a playoff style game every regular season game.

#93 Nev

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:30 AM

The Drake re-acquisition worked.  Danny Markov?  Really?  That one "glorious" season made you nostalgic?

 

Brad Stuart, yes, I'll give credit there---good pickup, good price.  But he is also an example of how Holland craps the bed.  Stuart left this past summer, and what did Ken do?  ......crickets......Carlo Colaiacovo? 

 

Brian Rafalski......that's a whole 'nother topic. 

 

Where did I say Markov had a glorious season, and I was nostalgic for it?  You said "The biggest move he's made post-lockout #1?  Bertuzzi?"  and off the top of my head I was able to come up with 3 names without trying.  Markov was what he was - a big hitting defensive defenceman who pretty much everyone wanted  to keep, but who chose to go back to Russia.  Nothing we could do about that.

 

BTW, he acquired Quincey to cover for Stuart leaving.  You may not like how Quincey has played since then or the price, but he did something in advance to replace him.

 

And why does Rafalski not count?  Was he not a success here?


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#94 Euro_Twins

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:33 AM

Can't say I saw much of all those players but can you please tell me how players like Sammy and Conklin didn't work the first time around? Because one wasn't a top 6, 70 point scorer and one wasn't a stand-on-his-head starter who stole every game? Sammy was clutch, scored good points on a line with great chemistry, and at a snip. Conklin was a backup who helped us to a second consecutive Stanley Cup final. I think they worked first time out. Quincey is a moot point considering he was a prospect when we lost him. You can't really say he didn't work out first time around either.

 

 

Is it just me, or is this statement the most obvious/pretty redundant statement there is? :P In jest of course, but I'd like your crystal ball which says not all the big teams will win it, but maybe one will. Lol I think 4 teams will win the cup this year! Hehe again I jest.

 

lmao, yes my wording was a bit off... but the point is valid, all the teams that made big trades and don't win the cup will regret it when they have to shed cap this offseaspn



#95 Buppy

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:34 AM

This team's strength used to be its scoring depth. Not any more. I would say that reflects on the GM.

Depth really isn't the problem, considering two of our depth scorers have missed most of the season, and even Helm can generate some offense. The bigger issue is that our top goal scorers aren't top goal scorers. Zetterberg, Franzen, and Flip should have around 10 more goals than they do. A healthy Bert, Helm, and Sammy probably adds another 10. That would put us up near 3 gpg even without any big snipers.



#96 AtomicPunk

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

It WOULD, but it ISN"T. A good GM fills holes. When he realized Bert, Helm, Sammy, Cola, etc. were pretty much out for the season, and everyone else is having a bad year, you add some scoring to make up for what you're missing or jump start existing scorers. He has not done that. Period.


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#97 Nightfall

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:49 PM

It WOULD, but it ISN"T. A good GM fills holes. When he realized Bert, Helm, Sammy, Cola, etc. were pretty much out for the season, and everyone else is having a bad year, you add some scoring to make up for what you're missing or jump start existing scorers. He has not done that. Period.

 

In the new salary cap era, Kenny doesn't have room to just buy goal scorers at 10 million a season.  They made plays for Suter and Parise, but both those guys went to Minnesota.  So they got plugs this season and they have to build through the draft, which is going to take time.  I bet they make a play for a elite player next season, but who knows how that is going to go.

 

Wings fans who have been spoiled over the last 20+ years of success are in for a rude awakening.  The best thing we can do now is to support our team the way it is.  Its going to get worse as time goes on thats for sure.  Dats and Zetterberg are in decline, and no elite players are in the wings right now to take over for their production.  Prepare for a rebuild and it won't be without pain.


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#98 AtomicPunk

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

He's gotta do better than just choose from free agents. Pry somebody loose that he wants. Like the Brent Burns trade. Holland...:"Hey, I didn't know he was available!" Brendan Morrow didn't cost 10 million dollars. Make a mid-season trade. Do something unexpected when your team shows signs of failure.


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#99 The Axe

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:05 PM

 
In the new salary cap era, Kenny doesn't have room to just buy goal scorers at 10 million a season.  They made plays for Suter and Parise, but both those guys went to Minnesota.  So they got plugs this season and they have to build through the draft, which is going to take time.  I bet they make a play for a elite player next season, but who knows how that is going to go.
 
Wings fans who have been spoiled over the last 20+ years of success are in for a rude awakening.  The best thing we can do now is to support our team the way it is.  Its going to get worse as time goes on thats for sure.  Dats and Zetterberg are in decline, and no elite players are in the wings right now to take over for their production.  Prepare for a rebuild and it won't be without pain.


This is the bogus argument that upsets me.

Tootoo = 1.5
Sammy = 3
Colo = 2
Gustavsson = 1.5
Bertuzzi = 1.5
Huskins = .5

There's 10 mil right there. Don't tell me we don't have the money or room. We just spend it unwisely. Mind you, this is hindsight for most people. But a good GM, and certainly the proclaimed BEST GM, should have been able to predict that the 35 plus guys and historically fragile guys might not provide a worthwhile ROI.

That being said, the lockout can work to Hollands advantage. If he dumps the garbage, then we will have a chance to jump to light speed just like the imperial fleet.

#100 Carman

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

He's gotta do better than just choose from free agents. Pry somebody loose that he wants. Like the Brent Burns trade. Holland...:"Hey, I didn't know he was available!" Brendan Morrow didn't cost 10 million dollars. Make a mid-season trade. Do something unexpected when your team shows signs of failure.

 

San Jose had to give up a very good second line player on a great contract(setoguchi), their best prospect at the time(Coyle), and a first round pick. We would have given up Filpulla, Smith/Nyquist, and a first for Brent Burns, or maybe even more considering Filpulla's contract isn't as valuable as Setoguchi's. Personally I'm glad we passed on Burns, and tried our luck going after Suter. That's just one example, but other than Burns there hasn't been that many #1, or #2 defenseman traded the past few seasons, especially ones that would fit with Kronwall's style.

 

 







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