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nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM


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#101 Nev

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:36 PM

This is the bogus argument that upsets me.

Tootoo = 1.5
Sammy = 3
Colo = 2
Gustavsson = 1.5
Bertuzzi = 1.5
Huskins = .5

 

 

 

And that's a bogus list.  Gustavsson is a backup goalie, you must have 2 goalies on your roster.  Not would like.  Not should.  Must have.  $1.5M for a backup is peanuts.

 

Bertuzzi - this is the first season where he's been out for any length of time, his health has been excellent in his second spell.  $1.5M for a veteran forward who provides the size, skill-set and points that Bert does is an absolute bargain.

 

Huskins - minimum salary for an emergency signing to cover a crippling injury crisis?  FFS, what the hell do you want from Ken Holland?  Do you remember our injury list when we were forced to sign Huskins?  When we didn't have 6 fit defencemen to put on the ice?  And you do realise that we cannot physically pay less than $0.5M for a player?  And you do realise that when our injury crisis on D went away Ken Holland traded him off the roster?

 

Colo was a gamble but a cheap gamble.  Tootoo provides something that no other player on our roster does.

 

I'll give you Sammy though, injured or healthy he's not worth that contract.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#102 Nightfall

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:37 PM

This is the bogus argument that upsets me.

Tootoo = 1.5
Sammy = 3
Colo = 2
Gustavsson = 1.5
Bertuzzi = 1.5
Huskins = .5

There's 10 mil right there. Don't tell me we don't have the money or room. We just spend it unwisely. Mind you, this is hindsight for most people. But a good GM, and certainly the proclaimed BEST GM, should have been able to predict that the 35 plus guys and historically fragile guys might not provide a worthwhile ROI.

That being said, the lockout can work to Hollands advantage. If he dumps the garbage, then we will have a chance to jump to light speed just like the imperial fleet.

 

Just based on the armchair GMs here in this forum, I would rather have Kenny at the helm than anyone here or a vast majority of the GMs out there in the field today for that matter.  Every GM makes mistakes.  No GM can tell the future.


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#103 Zetts

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:42 PM

This is the bogus argument that upsets me.

Tootoo = 1.5
Sammy = 3
Colo = 2
Gustavsson = 1.5
Bertuzzi = 1.5
Huskins = .5

There's 10 mil right there. Don't tell me we don't have the money or room. We just spend it unwisely. Mind you, this is hindsight for most people. But a good GM, and certainly the proclaimed BEST GM, should have been able to predict that the 35 plus guys and historically fragile guys might not provide a worthwhile ROI.

That being said, the lockout can work to Hollands advantage. If he dumps the garbage, then we will have a chance to jump to light speed just like the imperial fleet.

But you do actually have to have players filling roster spots...

 

It's not like you can subtract all of those players, add a star and then think your roster is fine.  You're talking about losing 6 players for 1.  One of which is our backup goalie.



#104 The Axe

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:46 PM

But you do actually have to have players filling roster spots...
 
It's not like you can subtract all of those players, add a star and then think your roster is fine.  You're talking about losing 6 players for 1.  One of which is our backup goalie.


But these guys aren't playing!! That's my whole argument! We are paying them AND the other guys that are actually filling the roster spot/playing.

#105 Zetts

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

But these guys aren't playing!! That's my whole argument! We are paying them AND the other guys that are actually filling the roster spot/playing.

Some of them are injured.  Yes, you've specifically chosen some of the injured players.  Now what happens when we lose 6 players for 1 and start getting injuries next year?



#106 The Axe

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

Some of them are injured.  Yes, you've specifically chosen some of the injured players.  Now what happens when we lose 6 players for 1 and start getting injuries next year?


The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

#107 Buppy

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 11:42 PM

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

Wings fans gripe because they don't follow other teams close enough realize that every team has injuries. In the last four years, we are 11th in man-games lost. And that's with two bad years.

 

Cola may be "injury-prone", but he's averaged over 67 games the past four years. A bit over 80% of his team's games. Bert's averaged 75, over 90% (78 and 95% in his 3 years with the Wings). Sammy 71, over 85%. To suggest that Holland should have predicted that any, much less all three, would miss almost the entire year is foolish.

 

More to the point, none of those guys prevented us from signing anyone better. Cola was signed precisely because we couldn't find anyone better. Bert and Sammy were affordable depth scorers, and they're short-term deals. We could have (and tried) signed even Parise and Suter. Would have meant some players would have been cut loose, but the fact that we did try to get them makes it obvious that we would have done so. Neither cap space nor roster space was a factor in who we did or didn't sign.

 

Trying to build a contender around a pair of older, highly-paid centers who can't score goals and aren't good enough to make stars out of average players, while having a huge question mark for a defense, without the benefit of cheap, young, proven, talent, with next to nothing on the UFA market... not as easy as it sounds. Building one to last is even harder yet.



#108 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:00 AM

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

Agreed.  Type into battle Axe! 

 

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#109 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

Wings fans gripe because they don't follow other teams close enough realize that every team has injuries. In the last four years, we are 11th in man-games lost. And that's with two bad years.
 
Cola may be "injury-prone", but he's averaged over 67 games the past four years. A bit over 80% of his team's games. Bert's averaged 75, over 90% (78 and 95% in his 3 years with the Wings). Sammy 71, over 85%. To suggest that Holland should have predicted that any, much less all three, would miss almost the entire year is foolish.
 
More to the point, none of those guys prevented us from signing anyone better. Cola was signed precisely because we couldn't find anyone better. Bert and Sammy were affordable depth scorers, and they're short-term deals. We could have (and tried) signed even Parise and Suter. Would have meant some players would have been cut loose, but the fact that we did try to get them makes it obvious that we would have done so. Neither cap space nor roster space was a factor in who we did or didn't sign.
 
Trying to build a contender around a pair of older, highly-paid centers who can't score goals and aren't good enough to make stars out of average players, while having a huge question mark for a defense, without the benefit of cheap, young, proven, talent, with next to nothing on the UFA market... not as easy as it sounds. Building one to last is even harder yet.


Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings. To suggest Dats and Z can't score is absurd. These guys are crippled with crappy players because the GM failed the last off season. Franzen and Brunner are average, and their paychecks prove it. Cleary and Abdelkader are 3rd liners at best, and their paychecks prove it. Asking Z and D to score with these guys is a joke. Our top 6 needs a serious overhaul. 2 guys minimum. 4 guys in reality.

#110 Nev

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:24 AM

Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings.

 

http://en.wikipedia....wn_(ice_hockey)


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#111 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:38 PM

Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings. To suggest Dats and Z can't score is absurd. These guys are crippled with crappy players because the GM failed the last off season. Franzen and Brunner are average, and their paychecks prove it. Cleary and Abdelkader are 3rd liners at best, and their paychecks prove it. Asking Z and D to score with these guys is a joke. Our top 6 needs a serious overhaul. 2 guys minimum. 4 guys in reality.

I'd put Brunner and Nyquist in the top 6 and Tatar on the 3rd line.  I like the idea someone had of getting Stalberg and Clarkson.


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Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#112 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:02 PM

 
http://en.wikipedia....wn_(ice_hockey)


212 points in one year of minors/juniors. I don't care if you're 22 and playing in the senior citizens league, 212 points in one season is off the hook.

#113 dirtydangles

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:09 PM

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

This is basically the truth on the matter. This is how I feel. We took on guys that were pretty injury prone and not really a sure thing anymore and "hoped" that they would be good for us. We don't need anymore of this going forward in the future. I would rather have a young gun out of GR who gives full effort and stays healthy but didn't play 10+ seasons in the league (experience) than an experienced player who is probably on the decline and all indicators point to them regressing further. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#114 Zetts

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

The thing is that the guys who are injured are the guys you could have predicted would be injured. Old, injury prone, or both. Ever think that maybe the reason Wings fans are always griping about man games lost Is because Holland is always icing a team of old guys and guys that can't stay healthy? We can't stop the Quincy and White type injuries. Accidents happen. But Bert, Sammy, and Colo are a joke. Those signings look so bad right now. Those guys were finished when we signed them. Holland needs to be a bit more shrewd in the future.

You actually are spot-picking injured players with your complaints.  Prior to ONE season with injury, Samuelsson played 73, 81, 74 and 75 games.  Bertuzzi, prior to this year, played 82, 81 and 71 games.  Nobody "knew" they'd be injured.  Colaiacovo I'll give you because...well...that's impossible to argue.

 

As for Huskins, he was necessary at the time.  He wasn't a bad off-season signing.  We were just running into a pile on injuries early in the season.

 

Replacing Gustavsson isn't really possible while saving money - you need a back-up.

 

Tootoo, while perhaps slightly overpaid, brings an element we need as a 12/13 forward.

 

You can't just dump a pile of roster players and say, "see, now we could get a star."


Edited by Zetts, 19 April 2013 - 01:45 PM.


#115 dirtydangles

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:46 PM

You actually are spot-picking injured players with your complaints.  Prior to ONE season with injury, Samuelsson played 73, 81, 74 and 75 games.  Bertuzzi, prior to this year, played 82, 81 and 71 games.  Nobody "knew" they'd be injured.  Colaiacovo I'll give you because...well...that's impossible to argue.

 

As for Huskins, he was necessary at the time.  He wasn't a bad off-season signing.  We were just running into a pile on injuries early in the season.

 

Replacing Gustavsson isn't really possible while saving money - you need a back-up.

 

Tootoo, while perhaps slightly overpaid, brings an element we need as a 12/13 forward.

 

You can't just dump a pile of roster players and say, "see, now we could get a star."

Holland offered multi-year deals for old 35+ players and even went so far to give Sammy a NTC. Cola was a dumb idea. So are multi-year deals for 35+ players with NTCs when you have overripe prospects in the minors. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#116 Wingsfan72

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

Dem points. :scared:

 

 Lemieux was the greatest player in hockey.

 

That man could have gotten me a regular NHL spot,




 
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#117 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

You actually are spot-picking injured players with your complaints.  Prior to ONE season with injury, Samuelsson played 73, 81, 74 and 75 games.  Bertuzzi, prior to this year, played 82, 81 and 71 games.  Nobody "knew" they'd be injured.  Colaiacovo I'll give you because...well...that's impossible to argue.
 
As for Huskins, he was necessary at the time.  He wasn't a bad off-season signing.  We were just running into a pile on injuries early in the season.
 
Replacing Gustavsson isn't really possible while saving money - you need a back-up.
 
Tootoo, while perhaps slightly overpaid, brings an element we need as a 12/13 forward.
 
You can't just dump a pile of roster players and say, "see, now we could get a star."


Hindsight is always 20/20. But a good GM has 20/20 foresight. I've been against Holland for quite some time now. Holmstrom played 3 seasons for us past his usefulness. Now Bertuzzi, Cleary, White, Samuelson, and Flip are all in the same boat. A good GM sees decline and makes an adjustment immediately. Gland just golfs, eats his little Caesars, and hopes Haakan Andersson and Jim Nill continue to excel at their jobs.

#118 Zetts

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

Holland offered multi-year deals for old 35+ players and even went so far to give Sammy a NTC. Cola was a dumb idea. So are multi-year deals for 35+ players with NTCs when you have overripe prospects in the minors. 

This isn't what I was saying though.  My point has never been that those were particularly good moves or that I wanted them here in the first place. 

 

My argument is around the logistics of claiming that it's wise to ditch 6 players (including your backup goaltender) to get one star player.  He's claiming that there's no difference becaues we knew they'd be injured anyways.  I'm claiming, in response, that it's dishonest to look at players that you observe to be injured ex post and say that. 



Hindsight is always 20/20. But a good GM has 20/20 foresight. I've been against Holland for quite some time now. Holmstrom played 3 seasons for us past his usefulness. Now Bertuzzi, Cleary, White, Samuelson, and Flip are all in the same boat. A good GM sees decline and makes an adjustment immediately. Gland just golfs, eats his little Caesars, and hopes Haakan Andersson and Jim Nill continue to excel at their jobs.

Put this way, I can see where you're coming from.  I think you're expecting a bit too much of Holland, but I see what you're saying.


Edited by Zetts, 19 April 2013 - 03:06 PM.


#119 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:10 PM

This isn't what I was saying though.  My point has never been that those were particularly good moves or that I wanted them here in the first place. 
 
My argument is around the logistics of claiming that it's wise to ditch 6 players (including your backup goaltender) to get one star player.  He's claiming that there's no difference becaues we knew they'd be injured anyways.  I'm claiming, in response, that it's dishonest to look at players that you observe to be injured ex post and say that. 


Put this way, I can see where you're coming from.  I think you're expecting a bit too much of Holland, but I see what you're saying.


I see your side of it, too, brother. You make a good point and your facts back it up very strongly.

#120 kipwinger

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:12 PM

Hindsight is always 20/20. But a good GM has 20/20 foresight. I've been against Holland for quite some time now. Holmstrom played 3 seasons for us past his usefulness. Now Bertuzzi, Cleary, White, Samuelson, and Flip are all in the same boat. A good GM sees decline and makes an adjustment immediately. Gland just golfs, eats his little Caesars, and hopes Haakan Andersson and Jim Nill continue to excel at their jobs.

 

It's funny because I agree with you about Holmstrom playing past the point that he should have, and it's interesting to note that even then he scored more often than any of our current wingers sans Franzen.  In his last three seasons he scored 25, 18, and 11 goals.  I'd kill for that kind of goal scoring in our top six right about now haha. 


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