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nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM


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#121 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:23 PM

 
It's funny because I agree with you about Holmstrom playing past the point that he should have, and it's interesting to note that even then he scored more often than any of our current wingers sans Franzen.  In his last three seasons he scored 25, 18, and 11 goals.  I'd kill for that kind of goal scoring in our top six right about now haha. 


He looks like Jari Kurri compared to Cleary, doesn't he!!!

#122 Buppy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:48 PM

Mario fricking Lemieux in his prime would have a hard time with Abdelkader and Cleary playing his wings. To suggest Dats and Z can't score is absurd. These guys are crippled with crappy players because the GM failed the last off season. Franzen and Brunner are average, and their paychecks prove it. Cleary and Abdelkader are 3rd liners at best, and their paychecks prove it. Asking Z and D to score with these guys is a joke. Our top 6 needs a serious overhaul. 2 guys minimum. 4 guys in reality.

I said they can't score goals. By that I mean they both seem to be around 20-25g. And you're kind of proving my point. They're not good enough to turn average players into stars. Nothing really wrong with that; few players ever have been. I point it out because it makes it that much tougher to build a team. If we need four 30g wingers, we're probably out of luck. Couldn't afford it in free agency, even if there were 4 available. Nor do we have the trade assets, even if we completely empty the cupboards (which would leave no cheap depth to fill the rest of the roster anyway).

 

We need to be able to score, even if our top-6 has a couple of guys that can only pot 15-20. Cleary and Abby have 9g apiece. Franzen has 10, Brunner 11, Flip 7...Tatar, Nyquist, and Bert combined have 9 in what has essentially been the same roster spot. That's pretty good scoring depth. That's 7 players with 9 or more, plus 1 with 7.

 

For comparison, the Blackhawks also have 7 players with 9 and one with 7. In fact, looking at the entire forward corps of both teams, taking out Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen for the Wings, and Kane, Toews, and Hossa for the Hawks... our forwards have scored just one fewer goal. Paid similar money too; we're a little under a million more. Injuries close to balanced. Bolland and Flip roughly equal out. We've had more injuries, but they've had Sharp out for a while. Our replacements have done better. It's a very minor difference. Add in Franzen and Hossa (both have missed 7 games) and the difference is 8 goals, and now the Hawks spending slightly more.

 

Pav and Hank have 22. Kane and Toews have 42.

 

It's reasonable to think we could upgrade one of the others enough to offset the 8g difference there. Not so much the other 20g at the top. We need that depth scoring. Need guys like Cleary, Abby, Bert and Sammy who can fill a role on a top line at a fairly cheap price. We can afford one upgrade, and maybe make one other swap for someone of a similar level but who fits better. No guarantees that we can find either, and no guarantees it would be enough, so we don't want to spend to much (in cap commitment or trade) to try for it.


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#123 Nev

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:31 PM

212 points in one year of minors/juniors. I don't care if you're 22 and playing in the senior citizens league, 212 points in one season is off the hook.

 

Did you know Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals in junior? :P

 

Buppy - great post, very informative, and kinda backs up what Holland has been saying ie we have plenty of depth but not enough star power in our top 6. 


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#124 kipwinger

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:50 PM

I said they can't score goals. By that I mean they both seem to be around 20-25g. And you're kind of proving my point. They're not good enough to turn average players into stars. Nothing really wrong with that; few players ever have been. I point it out because it makes it that much tougher to build a team. If we need four 30g wingers, we're probably out of luck. Couldn't afford it in free agency, even if there were 4 available. Nor do we have the trade assets, even if we completely empty the cupboards (which would leave no cheap depth to fill the rest of the roster anyway).

 

We need to be able to score, even if our top-6 has a couple of guys that can only pot 15-20. Cleary and Abby have 9g apiece. Franzen has 10, Brunner 11, Flip 7...Tatar, Nyquist, and Bert combined have 9 in what has essentially been the same roster spot. That's pretty good scoring depth. That's 7 players with 9 or more, plus 1 with 7.

 

For comparison, the Blackhawks also have 7 players with 9 and one with 7. In fact, looking at the entire forward corps of both teams, taking out Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen for the Wings, and Kane, Toews, and Hossa for the Hawks... our forwards have scored just one fewer goal. Paid similar money too; we're a little under a million more. Injuries close to balanced. Bolland and Flip roughly equal out. We've had more injuries, but they've had Sharp out for a while. Our replacements have done better. It's a very minor difference. Add in Franzen and Hossa (both have missed 7 games) and the difference is 8 goals, and now the Hawks spending slightly more.

 

Pav and Hank have 22. Kane and Toews have 42.

 

It's reasonable to think we could upgrade one of the others enough to offset the 8g difference there. Not so much the other 20g at the top. We need that depth scoring. Need guys like Cleary, Abby, Bert and Sammy who can fill a role on a top line at a fairly cheap price. We can afford one upgrade, and maybe make one other swap for someone of a similar level but who fits better. No guarantees that we can find either, and no guarantees it would be enough, so we don't want to spend to much (in cap commitment or trade) to try for it.

 

Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though?  You can't really double team either of those guys when they're on the ice because Hossa and Sharp can beat you on their own if you don't take them seriously.  I think both Pav and Hank's numbers are low because teams have figured out that the Wings can't beat you when Pav or Hank are kept off the board.  You can't do that with Chicago. By having real depth in their forward core it opens up the ice for the stars as well. 


Edited by kipwinger, 20 April 2013 - 04:51 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#125 Red Crazy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:25 PM

I have a feeling that both Holland and Babcock are going to blame injuries and Lidstrom retiring if the Red Wings miss the playoffs. I feel this will be a complete cop out if it happens. No other teams have Lidstrom either and there are a lot of teams that have had more quality players out then the Wings and they are still in the playoffs ( Ottawa). The forwards need a major overhaul this coming off season. You can't win games without scoring and without heart. Z and Pav cannot carry this team. Holland needs to step to the plate this summer or be shown the door. My list of forwards that can go- Cleary, Fil, Sammy, Eaves, Miller. Not because they are bad just because we need better.



#126 Buppy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:28 PM

 

Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though?  You can't really double team either of those guys when they're on the ice because Hossa and Sharp can beat you on their own if you don't take them seriously.  I think both Pav and Hank's numbers are low because teams have figured out that the Wings can't beat you when Pav or Hank are kept off the board.  You can't do that with Chicago. By having real depth in their forward core it opens up the ice for the stars as well. 

As I pointed out in my post, they don't really have any more depth than we do. Sharp's been out almost half the year, Hossa missed 7. Saad, Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Shaw... none of them are really any better than what we have, none of them have as many goals as Brunner, and only Saad matches Franzen. More likely I think is that Kane and Toews add more to those guys than those guys add to Kane and Toews.

 

Upgrading a couple of our forwards to Sharp and Hossa level would help, I'm sure. But I wouldn't expect it to double Pav and Hank's output. Particularly not if the one's you upgrade are Franzen and Filppula, as you'd likely need to do to make it work under the cap.



#127 The Axe

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:37 PM

A Chicago Detroit comparison is laughable at this stage. Night and day talent disparity at forward and their defense is better than ours currently. I think our d has a lot more potential than theirs, tho.

#128 esteef

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:51 PM

As I pointed out in my post, they don't really have any more depth than we do. Sharp's been out almost half the year, Hossa missed 7. Saad, Bolland, Stalberg, Bickell, Shaw... none of them are really any better than what we have, none of them have as many goals as Brunner, and only Saad matches Franzen. More likely I think is that Kane and Toews add more to those guys than those guys add to Kane and Toews.

 

Upgrading a couple of our forwards to Sharp and Hossa level would help, I'm sure. But I wouldn't expect it to double Pav and Hank's output. Particularly not if the one's you upgrade are Franzen and Filppula, as you'd likely need to do to make it work under the cap.

 

The Wings have 9 negative forwards to The Hawks' 1.  In fact the Hawks as a whole have only 2 negative players, the Wings, 12.  I know +/- isn't a perfect indicator of a player's talent level but it does reflect something about their effort on the ice which gets bitched about A LOT on here.  Chicago's roster kills us in +/- and it's not because of PP goals.  Maybe we wouldn't need a ton of scoring if guys weren't getting outskated, outworked and losing puck battles that end up in the back of their net.  This is why people might say their depth is "better" than ours.

 

esteef


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#129 Nev

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:17 PM

 

Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though? 

 

Seems more likely to me that Toews and Kane are star players in their prime, rather than star players past their prime like Zetterberg and Datsyuk. 

 

Although it is a fair point that Hossa-Sharp is ahead of Franzen-Filpulla as the 3-4 punch, even if they have been injured.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#130 JasonNewEra

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:59 PM

Fix it in the off season or retire or fired. I don't care which, he didn't 'reload' like so many times before. The past 3 years have been unbearable to watch as a Wings fan.


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#131 Nightfall

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:44 AM

Fix it in the off season or retire or fired. I don't care which, he didn't 'reload' like so many times before. The past 3 years have been unbearable to watch as a Wings fan.

 

I believe it comes down to not the "willingness" to reload but the "ability" to reload.  The salary cap has prevented the Wings from doing that like they have in the past.  Oh, and if you think the past 3 years have been "unbearable", just wait.  Its going to get worse before it gets better.


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#132 alienanxiety

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:22 AM

They had all the cap room in the world this summer.   Holland tried (and failed) for Parise and Suter, but where he really missed the ball was his total disinterest in Semin.   Semin with Datsyuk would have us in the playoffs right now.



#133 The Axe

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:41 AM

 
I believe it comes down to not the "willingness" to reload but the "ability" to reload.  The salary cap has prevented the Wings from doing that like they have in the past.  Oh, and if you think the past 3 years have been "unbearable", just wait.  Its going to get worse before it gets better.


More FALSEness. The Wings play with the same cap as the other teams. Its just that other teams spend money on great players and fill in the rest of the lineup with their low paid young guys. We sign a bunch of old, crappy guys and let our prospects waste away.

#134 Buppy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

More FALSEness. The Wings play with the same cap as the other teams. Its just that other teams spend money on great players and fill in the rest of the lineup with their low paid young guys. We sign a bunch of old, crappy guys and let our prospects waste away.

I believe what he was saying is that the cap takes away the advantage of spending more than most other teams. In the past we could trade away picks and prospects to acquire proven talent without having to worry about fitting them under the cap, and still go after any UFA we liked. That isn't possible anymore.

 

Now, we have to keep our young players, since as you say we need them to fill out the roster. Now we have to compete with a lot more teams for UFAs, and there are fewer of them to go around as well.

 

It's not a matter of how we're spending money; it's acquiring those "great players" in the first place.



#135 The Axe

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:02 PM

I believe what he was saying is that the cap takes away the advantage of spending more than most other teams. In the past we could trade away picks and prospects to acquire proven talent without having to worry about fitting them under the cap, and still go after any UFA we liked. That isn't possible anymore.
 
Now, we have to keep our young players, since as you say we need them to fill out the roster. Now we have to compete with a lot more teams for UFAs, and there are fewer of them to go around as well.
 
It's not a matter of how we're spending money; it's acquiring those "great players" in the first place.


But to act like we just realized this is silly. Its been that way for a while now. Remember the talk about the Devils not being able to ice a full team with the Kovulchuk deal? This "era" didn't just manifest itself yesterday. Holland is not performing. He needs to be replaced.

#136 DeGraa55

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:43 PM

I believe it comes down to not the "willingness" to reload but the "ability" to reload.  The salary cap has prevented the Wings from doing that like they have in the past.  Oh, and if you think the past 3 years have been "unbearable", just wait.  Its going to get worse before it gets better.



We had and will have cap. Room. He didn't have to sign Sammy or cola. And this off season he has two buyouts. He can make cap room and there's trades that can be made.

#137 Buppy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 05:41 PM

But to act like we just realized this is silly. Its been that way for a while now. Remember the talk about the Devils not being able to ice a full team with the Kovulchuk deal? This "era" didn't just manifest itself yesterday. Holland is not performing. He needs to be replaced.

No one is "just realizing" anything. Acquiring top talent has always been hard, and has become even more so in the cap era. Yet you seem to think that even now a competent GM should be able to replace any that's lost, and add more to compensate for any decline from those still around, all without any drop in team performance.

 

When the GM you think are good now have all rebuilt their teams on the fly, without any "down" years...then you can say Holland should have done better. For now, you have nearly 100 years of NHL history telling you that your expectations aren't reasonable.



#138 The Axe

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:44 PM

No one is "just realizing" anything. Acquiring top talent has always been hard, and has become even more so in the cap era. Yet you seem to think that even now a competent GM should be able to replace any that's lost, and add more to compensate for any decline from those still around, all without any drop in team performance.
 
When the GM you think are good now have all rebuilt their teams on the fly, without any "down" years...then you can say Holland should have done better. For now, you have nearly 100 years of NHL history telling you that your expectations aren't reasonable.


Holland is not signing goal scorers. We need some.

#139 JasonNewEra

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:49 PM

No one is "just realizing" anything. Acquiring top talent has always been hard, and has become even more so in the cap era. Yet you seem to think that even now a competent GM should be able to replace any that's lost, and add more to compensate for any decline from those still around, all without any drop in team performance.

 

When the GM you think are good now have all rebuilt their teams on the fly, without any "down" years...then you can say Holland should have done better. For now, you have nearly 100 years of NHL history telling you that your expectations aren't reasonable.

 

The thing is this, since the cap has been in place Holland HAS signed good players and goal scorers. However, in the past 4 years he has not. What is attributing to this? Unwilling to play for the Wings? or perhaps it's the not willing to pay for said players? Regardless of which, its up to our GM to sign the appropriate players to fill the voids where they are needed. Ken Holland has not done so in the past 4 years, and continues to make excuses for why he doesn't. I like our team or it's cause of injuries doesn't cut it in this league. Especially in our division...

 

Why did he resign Franzen over Hossa? Unwilling to pay 7 million for Hossa seems pretty cheap in the long run.

 

Also, he has had cap space available to make moves and has made the WRONG ones. Quincey, White, Cleary, Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, Huskins, Commodore, Conner, Brunnstrom, MacDonald, Minard, Johnson, Parkes, Newbury, Williams, Ehrhardt, Delmore, Jason Williams and May all in the last 3 years and some of them haven't even stepped on the ice for the Wings!

 

I don't like where we are heading, and if he can't fix it soon I don't want him here anymore. What he did for us over the past 16 years has been great, but not all of that was done in his tenure. He's been good at times but bad at others. I think it's just time for somebody else to take the reigns. Jim Nill needs a shot.


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#140 Zetts

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:53 PM

 

Why did he resign Franzen over Hossa? Unwilling to pay 7 million for Hossa seems pretty cheap in the long run.

 

I believe we were in a huge cap-crunch.  It mattered a lot at the time.  Even ignoring the whole argument of whether he should have known Hossa was the better choice, the Wings couldn't afford that.


Edited by Zetts, 21 April 2013 - 10:53 PM.






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