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nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM


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#141 Nev

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:02 PM

But to act like we just realized this is silly. Its been that way for a while now. Remember the talk about the Devils not being able to ice a full team with the Kovulchuk deal? This "era" didn't just manifest itself yesterday. Holland is not performing. He needs to be replaced.

 

Yes, and that is why Holland has kept hold of almost all his draft picks since 2006, because he knows you need a constant pipeline of good, young, cheap players coming through.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#142 The Axe

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:06 PM

 
Yes, and that is why Holland has kept hold of almost all his draft picks since 2006, because he knows you need a constant pipeline of good, young, cheap players coming through.


We don't play any of them, so who cares?

#143 F.Michael

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

We don't play any of them, so who cares?

Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...

 

It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?



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#144 DeGraa55

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:44 PM

Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...
 
It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?



What type are you serious? Do you not see our nhk and ahl team full of pass first euro playmakers?

Its nice to have some don't get me wrong but it can't be your entire team!!! I do however love our defense now and in the future. Our defense has changed from what it is used to be. Time for the forwards.

#145 The Axe

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:54 AM

Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...
 
It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?


Drafting is always dicey. No way to tell for sure after the first few picks. I think the problem lies with Holland not being able to land Praise.

#146 DeGraa55

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:13 AM

Drafting is always dicey. No way to tell for sure after the first few picks. I think the problem lies with Holland not being able to land Praise.


It wasn't Hollands fault. Him and illitch went after him and Sumter hard.

Hollands problem was putting all his eggs in one basket. I'm more pissed about not going for semin. There was no harm in a one year deal to get him. Instead we get Cola and Sammy and give him a ntc.

#147 Crymson

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:30 AM

It wasn't Hollands fault. Him and illitch went after him and Sumter hard.

Hollands problem was putting all his eggs in one basket. I'm more pissed about not going for semin. There was no harm in a one year deal to get him. Instead we get Cola and Sammy and give him a ntc.

 

Carolina was the single team willing to take a chance on Semin. It's not as if Holland was the only one who passed on the guy.



Unfortunately not many of them are turning out as hoped...

 

It's guys like Emmerton getting picked by our scouts at draft day over guys like Lucic/Marchand...I know I'm a broken record, and keep harping about that, but it makes me wonder what "type" of player is Holland looking for?

 

Yes, you DO keep harping about that. If that's the standard by which you're measuring GMs, then the 28 other GMs who also overlooked Lucic in the first round suck also?

 

News: size does not guarantee success. There are plenty of large players who have failed to make it.



What type are you serious? Do you not see our nhk and ahl team full of pass first euro playmakers?

 

I get the feeling that you know very little about who is in the pipeline. If you think that even Nyquist and Tatar are pass-first players, then you haven't been watching at all.



#148 DeGraa55

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:59 AM

I'm talking only stars or suppose to be stars. And the bigger name guys you always hear about are typically pass first euro players. Tatar is an exception but I honestly never really heard much about him like I did with jarnkrok, Nyquist DAT z etc etc.

And guys like sheahan are obviously not pass first euros but they're not predicted to be stars.


But I also don't follow the wings prospects as close as most. The ones I follow are the bigger named ones you hear about which right now from the way I understand it are oullet, Sproul, mrazek, jarnkrok, and patterson. And I think jurco is to but not sure and I don't really consider Nyquist or Tatar on that list cause they both should be in NHL full time right now. And I know I'm forgetting a few but I think you get the idea.

Edited by DeGraa55, 22 April 2013 - 05:01 AM.


#149 Nev

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:48 AM

We don't play any of them, so who cares?

 

Emmerton, Kindl, Nyquist, Smith, Andersson.  Plus Brunner and DelKaiser.  Tatar and Lashoff too.  Is 8 good, young, cheap players not enough for you?


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#150 RedWingsRox

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:11 AM

Holland was the best GM in the mid 1990's to 2010 era.  He is a bit behind the 'best GM's' in the 2011 and beyond period.    



#151 Buppy

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:42 AM

 

The thing is this, since the cap has been in place Holland HAS signed good players and goal scorers. However, in the past 4 years he has not. What is attributing to this? Unwilling to play for the Wings? or perhaps it's the not willing to pay for said players? Regardless of which, its up to our GM to sign the appropriate players to fill the voids where they are needed. Ken Holland has not done so in the past 4 years, and continues to make excuses for why he doesn't. I like our team or it's cause of injuries doesn't cut it in this league. Especially in our division...

 

Why did he resign Franzen over Hossa? Unwilling to pay 7 million for Hossa seems pretty cheap in the long run.

 

Also, he has had cap space available to make moves and has made the WRONG ones. Quincey, White, Cleary, Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, Huskins, Commodore, Conner, Brunnstrom, MacDonald, Minard, Johnson, Parkes, Newbury, Williams, Ehrhardt, Delmore, Jason Williams and May all in the last 3 years and some of them haven't even stepped on the ice for the Wings!

 

I don't like where we are heading, and if he can't fix it soon I don't want him here anymore. What he did for us over the past 16 years has been great, but not all of that was done in his tenure. He's been good at times but bad at others. I think it's just time for somebody else to take the reigns. Jim Nill needs a shot.

I never said it was impossible to sign good players. What I'm saying is you shouldn't expect to be able to sign really good players every single time you need one. Even before the cap, very few teams in all of NHL history have managed to make big transitions without some bumps along the road. Fewer yet have managed it after such a long period near the top of the league. The cap makes it even harder. You're asking for perfection.

 

Sometimes, mistakes will be made. You get someone that doesn't work out the way you expect. You go after one guy and have to pass on another, then miss your target anyway. You think you'll have more options, but they don't materialize. Everyone makes them. Sometimes they don't hurt, sometimes they do.

 

Your list of "wrong" moves is ridiculous. Half those players were signed specifically to play in GR and had no bearing on the Wings roster. Others were emergency replacements signed during the season or signed to fill roles at the bottom of the roster. Williams was signed when we needed cheap depth scoring during our cap crunch. He'd had 19g and 47p the previous season, and he knew our system, and he offered a potential replacement for Sammy on the point. We got him for $1.5m. It was a sound decision but didn't work out. It's not like we could have gotten anyone particularly good for that money. Cleary was signed 5 years ago, as a depth scorer and penalty killer. In that role he has been a success. We didn't fail to sign a star winger because we had Cleary to play in the top 6. He's been put in the top-6 because we failed to get anyone better. Quincey's been much better than he's gotten credit for. Not as good offensively as he'd been in LA or Colorado, but why should anyone have assumed that would be the case? White was a good pickup last year, when there were very few options that made it to free agency. No so good this year, but oh well. At least it was only two years. Cola signed late in the free agency period, when most everyone was gone, to fill a spot at the bottom of the roster. A good depth move, and unfortunately his injuries were even worse than usual. Luckily it turns out we didn't need him. Sammy was another depth scorer, and again an option for the PP point.

 

Literally not even one of those moves you listed prevented us from going after any top players. Quincey is the only one that was really expected to be in a key role.

 

I'm talking only stars or suppose to be stars. And the bigger name guys you always hear about are typically pass first euro players. Tatar is an exception but I honestly never really heard much about him like I did with jarnkrok, Nyquist DAT z etc etc.

And guys like sheahan are obviously not pass first euros but they're not predicted to be stars.


But I also don't follow the wings prospects as close as most. The ones I follow are the bigger named ones you hear about which right now from the way I understand it are oullet, Sproul, mrazek, jarnkrok, and patterson. And I think jurco is to but not sure and I don't really consider Nyquist or Tatar on that list cause they both should be in NHL full time right now. And I know I'm forgetting a few but I think you get the idea.

Well, none of our forward prospect are "supposed" to be stars, but a few, like Jarnkrok, may have that capability.

 

But of our top forward prospects, Jarnkrok is really the only "pass first" one we have (and Nyquist I guess, if you want to include them). Jurco, Pulkkinen, Frk, and Tvrdon are all goal scorers. Tatar is probably more a goal scorer as well. Sheahan and Ferraro probably aren't scorers at all.



#152 The Axe

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

I never said it was impossible to sign good players. What I'm saying is you shouldn't expect to be able to sign really good players every single time you need one. Even before the cap, very few teams in all of NHL history have managed to make big transitions without some bumps along the road. Fewer yet have managed it after such a long period near the top of the league. The cap makes it even harder. You're asking for perfection.
 
Sometimes, mistakes will be made. You get someone that doesn't work out the way you expect. You go after one guy and have to pass on another, then miss your target anyway. You think you'll have more options, but they don't materialize. Everyone makes them. Sometimes they don't hurt, sometimes they do.
 
Your list of "wrong" moves is ridiculous. Half those players were signed specifically to play in GR and had no bearing on the Wings roster. Others were emergency replacements signed during the season or signed to fill roles at the bottom of the roster. Williams was signed when we needed cheap depth scoring during our cap crunch. He'd had 19g and 47p the previous season, and he knew our system, and he offered a potential replacement for Sammy on the point. We got him for $1.5m. It was a sound decision but didn't work out. It's not like we could have gotten anyone particularly good for that money. Cleary was signed 5 years ago, as a depth scorer and penalty killer. In that role he has been a success. We didn't fail to sign a star winger because we had Cleary to play in the top 6. He's been put in the top-6 because we failed to get anyone better. Quincey's been much better than he's gotten credit for. Not as good offensively as he'd been in LA or Colorado, but why should anyone have assumed that would be the case? White was a good pickup last year, when there were very few options that made it to free agency. No so good this year, but oh well. At least it was only two years. Cola signed late in the free agency period, when most everyone was gone, to fill a spot at the bottom of the roster. A good depth move, and unfortunately his injuries were even worse than usual. Luckily it turns out we didn't need him. Sammy was another depth scorer, and again an option for the PP point.
 
Literally not even one of those moves you listed prevented us from going after any top players. Quincey is the only one that was really expected to be in a key role.
 
Well, none of our forward prospect are "supposed" to be stars, but a few, like Jarnkrok, may have that capability.
 
But of our top forward prospects, Jarnkrok is really the only "pass first" one we have (and Nyquist I guess, if you want to include them). Jurco, Pulkkinen, Frk, and Tvrdon are all goal scorers. Tatar is probably more a goal scorer as well. Sheahan and Ferraro probably aren't scorers at all.


The problem is these guys are all junk. Are they bad hockey players? No. But they are all crap compared to the Saad's and Nugent-Hopkins' of the hockey world. The Wings need 2 goal scorers ASAP. They aren't going to get them within the organization. Time to unload these "prospects", picks, and cash for some talent.

#153 Nev

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:32 AM

1)  You're moaning that we don't have any 1st overall pick talent?  You do realise what you have to do to get a #1 pick?

 

2)  Then you want KH to trade all our "crap" for another teams lottery-pick-young-superstars?  Now why would Edmonton trade Nugent-Hopkins for all our "crap"?


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#154 The Axe

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:35 AM

1)  You're moaning that we don't have any 1st overall pick talent?  You do realise what you have to do to get a #1 pick?
 
2)  Then you want KH to trade all our "crap" for another teams lottery-pick-young-superstars?  Now why would Edmonton trade Nugent-Hopkins for all our "crap"?


Edmonton has no veteran leadership.

#155 DeGraa55

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:15 AM

Edmonton has no veteran leadership.



That can be found in free agency for cheap. That's the one thing that's easy to get. Now young stars darn near impossible. Unless you're the rangers getting Nash or the canes getting one of the 87 stalls.

#156 The Axe

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:04 AM

That can be found in free agency for cheap. That's the one thing that's easy to get. Now young stars darn near impossible. Unless you're the rangers getting Nash or the canes getting one of the 87 stalls.


Flip, Nyquist, Smith, and 2 first rounders for Stamkos.





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