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Tatar frustrated; says he will only play in NHL when contract done


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#41 Zetts

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

So you'd rather have Sammy at the expense of stalberg/ clarkson/ nyquist/ Tatar? I don't think you'll see too many people agreeing with you on that. Plus having a line of goose- helm- Tatar will be the best 3rd line in hockey

No, I don't see it that way.  There's a few different things that lead to me to want to keep him:

 

1. Brunner is very much an unknown.  Right now Samuelsson would be better than him.  I wouldn't mind seeing Nyquist in the top 6 and a third line of Sammy-Helm-Tatar.  Or something to that effect.

 

2. Tootoo isn't someone who will play every night. 

 

3. If this season is any indication, there will be plenty of injuries.

 

I'd hardly be heartbroken if he left, but I'm just saying it might be worth considering keeping him around.



#42 kipwinger

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:10 PM

I imagine I'll get blasted for even mentioning that Cleary didn't always suck, but essentially what you're really saying is that we need someone to replace Cleary from when he played well.  Which he really did at one point.  He was exactly that sort of player that we so badly need right now.  Of all of the pieces we've lost, I think people fail to acknowledge that he didn't always suck, and his descent has actually hurt us a lot.  Then add to that Bertuzzi's injury and Franzen's...whatever you want to call it....and I think you see where the problem stems from.

 

Edit: Oh, and Holmstrom.

 

I actually agree.  Cleary was a very legit second line winger on this team a few years ago.  His age and knee troubles have taken his game away from him, but it's not like it was never there.  Back then he made the wings hard to play against, he was tenacious, he went to the net, he had enough offense in him to be a credible threat.  Even though we didn't win in 09, I liked the composition of that forward corps a lot better than I like what we've got going on now.  I'd like to see a high end goal scorer for Dats (a Gaborik/Hossa type of guy) and a couple of grinding type guys that will give you 15-25 goals and will be hard to play against.  Then role with...

 

Goal Scorer-Dats-Grinder

Grinder-Z-Franzen

Nyquist-Flip-Brunner

Tootoo-Helm-Abby/Miller


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Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#43 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:12 PM

No, I don't see it that way.  There's a few different things that lead to me to want to keep him:
 
1. Brunner is very much an unknown.  Right now Samuelsson would be better than him.  I wouldn't mind seeing Nyquist in the top 6 and a third line of Sammy-Helm-Tatar.  Or something to that effect.
 
2. Tootoo isn't someone who will play every night. 
 
3. If this season is any indication, there will be plenty of injuries.
 
I'd hardly be heartbroken if he left, but I'm just saying it might be worth considering keeping him around.


So what do you propose to do with brunner. And just curious but why can't tootoo play every night? I honestly for the life of me can't understand why babs healthy scratches him.

And ya I get that we have had a lot of injuries and he is a good insurance policy. But we can't afford to have the lineup that I suggested with also including Sammy. We just don't have the cap space for that.

Would you lose brunner for Sammy? Cause I sure as hell would not!

#44 Zetts

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:34 PM

So what do you propose to do with brunner. And just curious but why can't tootoo play every night? I honestly for the life of me can't understand why babs healthy scratches him.

And ya I get that we have had a lot of injuries and he is a good insurance policy. But we can't afford to have the lineup that I suggested with also including Sammy. We just don't have the cap space for that.

Would you lose brunner for Sammy? Cause I sure as hell would not!

I'll start off by saying that I don't think we'll aquire both (or likely either) of the players you mentioned, just because we haven't exactly had luck around here with our free agent wishes.  In such a case, it's not so much of an issue anyways.

 

But on your roster, the numbers aren't too far off for Samuelsson working.  Your roster had $1.7M in cap space and I don't see Brunner getting $2.5M.  I'm also iffy about Bertuzzi returning.  The fact is, prior to last season, Samuelsson had 4 consecutive seasons with a run of 40, 40 53 and 50 points.  And he's decent defensively.  Brunner isnt' so great defensively and it's very uncertain how he is offensively.  He should probably work in from the fourth line (Tootoo's spot) and maybe get higher playing time in the case of injuries.

 

If we had to choose between keeping one or the other, I *might* come around to your side on keeping him over Sammy, but it's definitely not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. 

 

Tootoo isn't an every night player because frankly he's just not that good.  He brings some energy, which is nice.  I like having that type of player.  But he's not consistent enough, or smart enough with the puck, etc.  He's not a regular.


Edited by Zetts, 18 April 2013 - 03:38 PM.


#45 VM1138

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:58 PM

Tatar doesn't get pushed around, he plays bigger than he is. That's another reason he is so valuable.
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#46 Dabura

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:02 PM

Here's what I don't understand.  Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps.  Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled.  You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok.  They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game.  So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

 

I've been meaning to point this out.

 

Realistically, we're not losing Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson all in one offseason - if only because, like we're saying, we'd have no size in the top six.


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#47 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:11 PM

Watching Dan Cleary play instead of him makes me sick to my stomach, every game.



I couldn't agree more. And cleary isn't the only one.


What I don't get is Holland and Babcock say something along the lines of the best will play. But they keep throwing cleary and other junk out there and not Nyquist and/or Tatar.

No, I don't see it that way.  There's a few different things that lead to me to want to keep him:
 
1. Brunner is very much an unknown.  Right now Samuelsson would be better than him.  I wouldn't mind seeing Nyquist in the top 6 and a third line of Sammy-Helm-Tatar.  Or something to that effect.
 
2. Tootoo isn't someone who will play every night. 
 
3. If this season is any indication, there will be plenty of injuries.
 
I'd hardly be heartbroken if he left, but I'm just saying it might be worth considering keeping him around.


Old and injury prone is so much better. I wish our team was full of berts sammies and helms.


No Sammy is not better than anyone on this team. All he is doing is wasting money and when he is actually healthy wasting a roster spot a young guy deserves. THE INLY THING he and Bert bring is size but were better of finding that via trade or fa. We need size but size that's reliable and young.

#48 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:17 PM

What I don't get is Holland and Babcock say something along the lines of the best will play. But they keep throwing cleary and other junk out there and not Nyquist and/or Tatar.

Exactly! Even last night, nyquist was the best player on the ice last night! Yet he still doesn't get to play with our best players. Don't even get me started about Tatar! He was so good when he was up! Sickening to see guys like cleary playing ahead of these two

#49 Dabura

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

SIDE NOTE:

 

My understanding is Lucic is in Julien's doghouse. Like, fourth-line doghouse.

 

Just sayin'.


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#50 kipwinger

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:20 PM

SIDE NOTE:

 

My understanding is Lucic is in Julien's doghouse. Like, fourth-line doghouse.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Haha, keep dreaming.  We'll be in the same division soon enough and nobody wants to play against that guy.  I'd love him in the Winged Wheel though.  Pretty much the only guy in the league that could deal effectively with Backes (whom I also would love to have).  Damn. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#51 Zetts

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

No Sammy is not better than anyone on this team. All he is doing is wasting money and when he is actually healthy wasting a roster spot a young guy deserves. THE INLY THING he and Bert bring is size but were better of finding that via trade or fa. We need size but size that's reliable and young.

Exchanging Sammy for Brunner doesn't suddently transform us from kids to an old, injury-prone team.  Have some common sense.

 

We need a lot of things.  But we can't just throw half the team out the window and replace them with the types of players that you want.  That means strategically keeping some players too.

 

I also dislike that you throw Helm into that group.  He's easily one of the best players on this team.  He's had some pretty bad luck, but I wouldn't consider him "injury prone".

 

As opposed to just arguing in circles about points though, we can keep it a bit more to the point: please outline your ideal roster for next year, including the new players that could realisitically be coming in.  I think we can all agree that Cleary, Bertuzzi, Samuelsson and Filppula have been disappointing.  But then we have to replace them.  Nyquist and Tatar, while great to have, are only two people, and at least one of them has already been on the team pretty much all season anyways.  And here we are. 


Edited by Zetts, 18 April 2013 - 04:26 PM.


#52 DSM

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

I don't really understand all the fuss from this. Tatar is pretty much calling the sky blue...

 

He's out of minor league options after this season, so he pretty much can already be penciled into the opening 23 man roster for next year. The Wings already know he can contribute at the NHL level. So unless he pulls a Ville Leino next season, he'll be signing a one-way deal sometime between then and October 2014.

 

I fail to see what the big commotion is...



#53 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

Exchanging Sammy for Brunner doesn't suddently transform us from kids to an old, injury-prone team.  Have some common sense.
 
We need a lot of things.  But we can't just throw half the team out the window and replace them with the types of players that you want.  That means strategically keeping some players too.
 
I also dislike that you throw Helm into that group.  He's easily one of the best players on this team.  He's had some pretty bad luck, but I wouldn't consider him "injury prone".
 
As opposed to just arguing in circles about points though, we can keep it a bit more to the point: please outline your ideal roster for next year, including the new players that could realisitically be coming in.  I think we can all agree that Cleary, Bertuzzi, Samuelsson and Filppula have been disappointing.  But then we have to replace them.  Nyquist and Tatar, while great to have, are only two people, and at least one of them has already been on the team pretty much all season anyways.  And here we are.



Helm is a fourth line player maybe third and you say one of the best? LOL

And no Sammy is one of the few guys you hold onto. He has no business being on this team. Between Bert and Sammy I choose Bert. Imeven if its only a 1% chance he plays. We need size and he used his Sammy doesn't. We have even soft euro trash yes looking at you franzen. Franzen even though I hate him scores more than Sammy.



Someone mentioned lucic and I'd love for nothing more to get him. That's the exact type of player be need be u fortunately I just don't see it ;(.

#54 Zetts

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:37 PM

Helm is a fourth line player maybe third and you say one of the best? LOL

And no Sammy is one of the few guys you hold onto. He has no business being on this team. Between Bert and Sammy I choose Bert. Imeven if its only a 1% chance he plays. We need size and he used his Sammy doesn't. We have even soft euro trash yes looking at you franzen. Franzen even though I hate him scores more than Sammy.



Someone mentioned lucic and I'd love for nothing more to get him. That's the exact type of player be need be u fortunately I just don't see it ;(.

At his role?  Yes, I do think he's one of the best.  He's obviously not going to put up 80 points, but he's extremely valuable.  I'm shocked I even have to discuss that point.

 

So you'd like Lucic but don't think it will happen.  Allow me to summarize your view as I understand it (and please correct any inaccuracies):

 

Get rid of: Helm, Filppula, Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi (but maybe keep him if we have to, although you wouldn't like it).  Let me know if I'm missing anyone.

 

Bring in: Nyquist, Tatar.

 

Yeah, that would make me feel much better about next season. :rolleyes:

 

My point is, it's easy to complain (and I certainly understand your frustration).  But if you're going to talk about ditching a pile of people, it would be nice to perhaps suggest a way to improve the team?

 

Do you perhaps now see more why I'm frustrated that you get angry when I suggest we keep one player?  Certainly some people have to go, but we can't re-make our team over night.


Edited by Zetts, 18 April 2013 - 05:10 PM.


#55 dropkickshanahans

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:44 PM

I agree with Tatar and this is where I feel Holland is being a hypocrite. The kid clearly won a spot on the team and he should be playing. As far as anyone wanting to put blame on Babcock, I just don't understand that when he's given him enough time for a rookie and even used him on the powerplay.

 

I'm pretty sure he's got Cleary's spot next season, but I can definitely understand his frustration. He looked pretty good during his time with the team, and it appears as if Nyquist is ready to make the jump as well. I truly feel like Cleary and Miller are done with the team, and an amnesty buyout should be used on Samuelsson.

If Tatar and Andersson (and Nyquist to a lesser extent) aren't with the Red Wings next season, there's really no defending Holland. The kids are ready.

 

 

I feel like Miller deserves to be on the team. He's been very good in his role and I'd like to see him stay over Eaves, but I think you're right, he's most likely gone after the season along with Cleary.

 

Here's what I don't understand.  Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps.  Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled.  You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok.  They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game.  So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

 

That's a good point. I wonder if Holland had Tatar as one of the prospects he tried to trade away at the deadline to give him a chance to play elsewhere like Calgary so we could keep size up front + Bouwmeester.



#56 GoalieManPat

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:45 PM

I am not trying to defend Holland, but how much of this is also on Babcock?  There seems to be no doubt that he prefers the Clearys and Millers(veterans) over younger players.  Holland may just be thinking it is better to be actually playing in GR then minimal mins in Det

 

If Holland wanted Tatar in Detroit getting minutes he would be getting minutes. 



#57 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:13 PM

At his role?  Yes, I do think he's one of the best.  He's obviously not going to put up 80 points, but he's extremely valuable.  I'm shocked I even have to discuss that point.
 
So you'd like Lucic but don't think it will happen.  Allow me to summarize your view as I understand it (and please correct any inaccuracies):
 
Get rid of: Helm, Filppula, Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi (but maybe keep him if we have to, although you wouldn't like it).  Let me know if I'm missing anyone.
 
Bring in: Nyquist, Tatar.
 
Yeah, that would make me feel much better about next season. :rolleyes:
 
My point is, it's easy to complain (and I certainly understand your frustration).  But if you're going to talk about ditching a pile of people, it would be nice to perhaps suggest a way to improve the team?


Ya see you're assuming the wrong things. Helm for example I live the guy he is comparable to draper. A little less tough but faster version.

I want fil to be back as my guess is dats will be gone in a year( I hope I'm wrong).

By getting rid of Sammy and Bert with buyouts and not resigning cleary you then have the money to target a decent of in fa or we could hold onto to them(which I've made it clear I don't want to) and we could use Tatar, Nyquist, helm or whoever as trade pieces to acquire a player like lucic(we won't get him but any player like him).

I'm only saying if it comes down to say Nyquist and Tatar or Bert and Sammy I choose the former.


The problem we have now and in the future is scoring and size. But with berts back issues I have a hard time trusting him. Sammy doesn't bring size cause he is like franzen and doesn't use it. Tatar can score so I'd take him over Sammy everyday and he is cheaper.

#58 Zetts

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

I'm only saying if it comes down to say Nyquist and Tatar or Bert and Sammy I choose the former.

Oh, I definitely agree with that.  You have no argument from me on that one at all.

 

Edit: You'll note that in my earlier posts, not only did I say that I want both on this team, I even suggested Nyquist be in the top 6.  To expand on that though, I'd only want him in that role if we have some bigger guys in the top 6 as well, because as Kip pointed out, a potential future top 6 using 6 of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Franzen, Tatar, Brunner and Nyquist lacks a lot of elements.


Edited by Zetts, 18 April 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#59 DSM

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:22 PM

I think the Wings just wanted to utilize Tatar's last opportunity to work on his game at the AHL level. Babcock had said that Tatar had a few things to improve upon, so why not let him work on that stuff without the pressure of performing at the highest level? It isn't like he has gone lights out at the AHL level either, his best season was 58 points. He'll be on the club full time next season, so his frustration will be shortlived.

 

I question the validity of this article though. I think some of it might be reworded or taken out of context. The Russian media did that when the Wings didn't just hand Igor Grigorenko a spot next to Datsyuk on the top line...




I want fil to be back as my guess is dats will be gone in a year( I hope I'm wrong).

 

 

If the team has to rely on Filppula to cushion the loss of Datsyuk, they are DOOMED.



#60 T.Low

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:04 PM

Nyquist Datsyuk Tatar

 

Filp Helm Zetterberg

 

Franzen Andersson Bertuzzi

 

Abby Emms Eaves/Toots

 

 

 

 

...but for now,

 

 

Nyquist Datsyuk Tatar

 

Filp Zetterberg Franzen

 

Abby Andersson Cleary

 

Eaves Emms Miller/Toots


Edited by T.Low, 18 April 2013 - 06:12 PM.






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