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Putting Hank's goal scoring problems into perspective.


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#21 kipwinger

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:11 PM

Here's some perspective.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the biggest offensive threats we have.  You know it, I know it, and every team we play knows it.  When they're separated they get double teamed, and when they're together no other line has any potential offense.  We simply don't have the horses.  That's why they don't score...because everyone and their brother knows to key on those guys to the exclusion of everyone else. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#22 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

Agreed that Hank hasn't looked healthy for 3 years.

 

I don't really have a problem with Hank this year except as someone has mentioned those blind passes he throws out there.

 

Always wish Hank would somehow work on his skating more. Liked Hank more so when he was quick off and on the puck.

 

Injuries probably have something to do with that now that I think about it.

 

I thought when Hank "bulked up" he lost something in his speed. Maybe.

 

Regardless of his scoring output lately he's a good leader on and off the ice and rightfully so.


Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing), 19 April 2013 - 01:18 PM.


#23 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:28 PM

 
The thing is, we're already paying a lot for Pav and Hank. If we have to go out and get an expensive sniper for each of them in order to score goals, we'll have to hope for bargains from the rest of the roster. And how long before their playmaking starts to fade as well?
 
That's why I think it would be a waste of resources to try building around them again. We're not in an advantagous position for it, and our window is very narrow if it even exists at all.


All good points. Ive been trying to explain why Datsyuk and his agent are posturing in another thread. That 7 million can be spread out on 2 good young guys, 1 good sniper, or 1 Pavel Datsyuk. Personally, I think Pavel's worth every penny of 7 mil per for 5 more years. But I would hope the Red Wings brass considers all the options before resigning him.

#24 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

All good points. Ive been trying to explain why Datsyuk and his agent are posturing in another thread. That 7 million can be spread out on 2 good young guys, 1 good sniper, or 1 Pavel Datsyuk. Personally, I think Pavel's worth every penny of 7 mil per for 5 more years. But I would hope the Red Wings brass considers all the options before resigning him.


No. Simply put you resign pavel at all costs! Ill take pav at 7 over two players at 3.5 each. Without pav we would be a lottery team

#25 Ally

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

If we DIDN'T resign Pav I would consider Holland a failure and be beyond mad at the entire organization. I won't watch the Wings play AGAINST Pavel Datsyuk. Seeing him in another jersey, to me, would signify that any shred of the great team we have been is gone.

 
"Everything he does is exciting to watch.” -Holmstrom describes Datsyuk


#26 beachwing

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:20 PM

Hanks been hurt all year...how many of you here have skated with a shredded groin...at the NHL level? s*** 95% on this forum has called in sick....Dude is leaving it all on the ice BUT because he's not potting 25 goals we might as well throw him on the trash heap with all the other guttless Wings.

I know you used to do s*** for me....but what have you done for me lately...

#27 dirtydangles

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:36 PM

Hanks been hurt all year...how many of you here have skated with a shredded groin...at the NHL level? s*** 95% on this forum has called in sick....Dude is leaving it all on the ice BUT because he's not potting 25 goals we might as well throw him on the trash heap with all the other guttless Wings.

I know you used to do s*** for me....but what have you done for me lately...

well we don't know if it is a "shredded" groin... but ya, I think Hank will be different next season. He played unreal earlier this year and has dropped off since because i think he has a lingering issue and is kinda burt out. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#28 kipwinger

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

Hanks been hurt all year...how many of you here have skated with a shredded groin...at the NHL level? s*** 95% on this forum has called in sick....Dude is leaving it all on the ice BUT because he's not potting 25 goals we might as well throw him on the trash heap with all the other guttless Wings.

I know you used to do s*** for me....but what have you done for me lately...

 

Link on the shredded groin thing or just speculation?  Brent Gilchrist had a shredded groin, you don't tough that out no matter who you are.  Zetterberg isn't scoring because he and Datsyuk get keyed on all game, every game, because they're the only offensive threats we've got.  If Franzen's line started scoring goals regularly then the defensive emphasis would shift to that line and Zetterberg would score again.  That's called depth and it will help you.  Simple as that.


Edited by kipwinger, 19 April 2013 - 03:20 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#29 kickazz

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:45 PM

I've been to some of these game and I've had the opportunity to sit up close (thanks to company tickets my father gets every year), let me tell you guys something. These guys get beat up day in an day out. I've watched Hank get his butt checked by guys almost twice as big as him from a few seats away. I'll tell you one thing though, he protects the puck with one hand very well, something even Datsyuk doesn't do as well. However Datsyuk has been fun to watch with his crazy deking ability that makes some of the D fall on their butts. Anyways the point im trying to make is, these guys are simply beat up. Half the time on ice that I've watch Zetterberg, he seems exhausted 30 seconds into his shift but just keeps on going. My buddy sitting next to me at the Chicago game at home said something like "Zetterberg plays like he's ran 30 miles before the game" Seriously, though up close the man looks exhausted this season.

 

These two men (zet and dats) have an incredible amount of pressure on them. Datsyuk is clearly in better shape and so he has a bit more stamina than Z but even he doesn't seem anywhere close to the speed he used to have a few years ago. Say what you guys must, but I've been analyzing these two all season long and have had the opportunity to do so from a few seats away. 


Edited by kickazz, 19 April 2013 - 03:48 PM.


#30 kipwinger

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

I've been to some of these game and I've had the opportunity to sit up close (thanks to company tickets my father gets every year), let me tell you guys something. These guys get beat up day in an day out. I've watched Hank get his butt checked by guys almost twice as big as him from a few seats away. I'll tell you one thing though, he protects the puck with one hand very well, something even Datsyuk doesn't do as well. However Datsyuk has been fun to watch with his crazy deking ability that makes some of the D fall on their butts. Anyways the point im trying to make is, these guys are simply beat up. Half the time on ice that I've watch Zetterberg, he seems exhausted 30 seconds into his shift but just keeps on going. My buddy sitting next to me at the Chicago game at home said something like "Zetterberg plays like he's ran 30 miles before the game" Seriously, though up close the man looks exhausted this season.

 

These two men (zet and dats) have an incredible amount of pressure on them. Datsyuk is clearly in better shape and so he has a bit more stamina than Z but even he doesn't seem anywhere close to the speed he used to have a few years ago. Say what you guys must, but I've been analyzing these two all season long and have had the opportunity to do so from a few seats away. 

 

Of course they look worn out, they're carrying the team on their shoulders, and everybody knows it.  Our team is a one trick pony and everybody has figured that out. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#31 DRW Dominance

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

 Too many passengers right now. 

I don't think they're passengers.

 

they're flat out just not good enough.


naked is a state of mind

#32 kipwinger

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:08 PM

I don't think they're passengers.

 

they're flat out just not good enough.

 

I agree that a lot of them are not good enough, but I think they're misutilized as well.  For instance, Datsyuk needs the puck on his stick to be effective but he doesn't like to shoot, Brunner doesn't carry the puck much and does like to shoot.  So put them together.  Similarly, Zetterberg is defensively responsible and has shown that he can score a lot.  Filppula is defensively responsible, and despite every opportunity, has shown he can't score.  So why not let Flip center the second line (and take the lion's share of the defensive responsibility) and let Zetterberg play the wing where he can score.  The defense is still in capable hands as Flip excels in that area, but at least you'll have someone on the wing that can score.  Ideally, for the remainder of the season I'd like to see this.

 

Brunner-Dats-Franzen

Zetterberg-Flip-Abby

Nyquist-Andersson-Cleary

Tootoo-Emmerton-Miller/Eaves

 

When Bert gets back swap him with Abby and put Abby where Emmerton is.  When Sammy gets back he rotates in and out with Cleary.  Also, if we make the playoffs I'd strongly consider scratching both Cleary and Sammy and putting Tatar with Nyquist and Andersson as they've obviously got a lot of chemistry and have worked well together


Edited by kipwinger, 19 April 2013 - 04:10 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#33 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:28 PM

Zetterberg and Datsyuk need a Stamkos. Until Holland pulls his head out and ponies up, why even get on these guys? Datsyuk has played with Holmstrom, Bertuzzi, Clearly and Abdelkader. This is hideous. I liken it to punishment. Imagine what it would be like if he had Z and a sniper. Oh wait. I don't have to imagine. It was fricken awesome when Z and Hull were his wingers. Holland should be doing everything possible to pry Bobby Ryan away from the Ducks and put him on a line with Z and Dats. That will help Zetterberg's output.

 

Really???



#34 Buppy

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:04 PM

What do you suggest if not building around our best guys?

Build for the future. Stockpile young players. Avoid panic-induced roster juggling. Look for moves that make sense long-term, rather than making moves just because you feel like you have to, and "well, it's the best we can do" at the time. Aim for a versatile prospect pool. Avoid long-term commitments unless they're players key to the future.

 

In time we'll find someone new to build around. With good work, we'll have a strong supporting cast already assembled and developed. With luck it will happen soon enough that Pav and Hank will still be around and good enough to lead the team while the next foundation players grow into it, and we'll be in position to make another long run at the top. Hopefully, we could get all that done without falling out of the playoffs.

 

If not, oh well. Nothing wrong with a little down stretch while we rebuild. "Down" is the easiest place to find those foundation players.



#35 kipwinger

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

Build for the future. Stockpile young players. Avoid panic-induced roster juggling. Look for moves that make sense long-term, rather than making moves just because you feel like you have to, and "well, it's the best we can do" at the time. Aim for a versatile prospect pool. Avoid long-term commitments unless they're players key to the future.

 

In time we'll find someone new to build around. With good work, we'll have a strong supporting cast already assembled and developed. With luck it will happen soon enough that Pav and Hank will still be around and good enough to lead the team while the next foundation players grow into it, and we'll be in position to make another long run at the top. Hopefully, we could get all that done without falling out of the playoffs.

 

If not, oh well. Nothing wrong with a little down stretch while we rebuild. "Down" is the easiest place to find those foundation players.

 

I agree that they're probably have to go young and start with the rebuild now (though I'm not sure that was the plan as recently as a couple weeks ago).  But I hope they don't "stockpile" the young talent.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.  Seems like if they're going to do this they really need to see what they've got, and they can't do that unless they play these guys and give them good looks.  You're not really doing yourself any favors by loading up on all these young guys only to keep them in GR while guys like Abby, Sammy, Cleary, Colaiacovo, and White are in the lineup.  If you're going to rebuild, it seem like you're still going to have to make the unpleasant choice of cutting guys loose.  And that's something this organization is generally reluctant to do. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#36 DeGraa55

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:53 PM

Or maybe people need to understand dats and z are OLD. They can't play forever and if people took of their fandom classes they'd see z is declining more rapidly than dat and he is younger!


I'm not saying they're not bad by any means. Dats is still one of the beat players in hockey hank is prolly in the 15-20 range. Where not too long ago they were both top 5 along with lids. That's the biggest problem.


They're still great players but not single handling carry a team every night of the week great. And its Hollands fault for not realizing this and getting them the help they need.

#37 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:21 PM

Or maybe people need to understand dats and z are OLD. They can't play forever and if people took of their fandom classes they'd see z is declining more rapidly than dat and he is younger!


I'm not saying they're not bad by any means. Dats is still one of the beat players in hockey hank is prolly in the 15-20 range. Where not too long ago they were both top 5 along with lids. That's the biggest problem.


They're still great players but not single handling carry a team every night of the week great. And its Hollands fault for not realizing this and getting them the help they need.


Don't you know you can't say that about Holland? He's the best. Geez

#38 Buppy

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

Here's some perspective.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the biggest offensive threats we have.  You know it, I know it, and every team we play knows it.  When they're separated they get double teamed, and when they're together no other line has any potential offense.  We simply don't have the horses.  That's why they don't score...because everyone and their brother knows to key on those guys to the exclusion of everyone else. 

To a point. Hank's has been down for four years. Datsyuk isn't down much. Of course having better players around them or more depth would help. But neither of them is the same player they were a few years ago. Part of their job is to elevate the players around them. In that respect, they have failed as often as the players around them have failed at playing up to their capabilities. It's not like they're serving up goals on a silver platter and the rest of the team is just blowing the opportunities. They're getting double-teamed and turning the puck over. Part of that is teammates failing to give them enough options, part of it is Pav and Hank failing to find the options they do have.

 

But I don't want to further derail this with criticism. Probably gives the wrong impression. Both do all I would expect of them, and occasionally more. The thread is about Hank's degrading goal-scoring, which I believe to be more about him than everyone around him.



#39 The Axe

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:44 PM

Hank on a wing with pav at center and Ryan on the other wing = point a game players all 3. Need a legit goal scorer. Not ice capades.

Z-Dats-Ryan
Horton-Helm-Nyquist
Tatar-Andersson-Ericsson
Jarnkrok-Emmerton-Sheahan

Ferarro

Kronwall-Dekeyser
Kindl-Quincey
Smith-Lashoff

Sproul, Ouelette

Howard
Mrazek

That's my roster.

#40 GMRwings1983

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

His goal scoring numbers have slowly been dwindling over the years.

 

In his best years, he took a boatload of shots, but had better aim and was good in front of the net.  Now, he just throws pucks from crappy angles like the rest of the team.  


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