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Putting Hank's goal scoring problems into perspective.


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#41 beachwing

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:34 PM

His goal scoring numbers have slowly been dwindling over the years.
 
In his best years, he took a boatload of shots, but had better aim and was good in front of the net.  Now, he just throws pucks from crappy angles like the rest of the team.  

.

Z and Dats have been abysmall with putting shots on goal! Sadly they get the best looks yet still missing net

#42 dirtydangles

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

Hank on a wing with pav at center and Ryan on the other wing = point a game players all 3. Need a legit goal scorer. Not ice capades.

Z-Dats-Ryan
Horton-Helm-Nyquist
Tatar-Andersson-Ericsson
Jarnkrok-Emmerton-Sheahan

Ferarro

Kronwall-Dekeyser
Kindl-Quincey
Smith-Lashoff

Sproul, Ouelette

Howard
Mrazek

That's my roster.

You are being sarcastic on this one right?


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#43 T.Low

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:51 PM

.

Z and Dats have been abysmall with putting shots on goal! Sadly they get the best looks yet still missing net

 

 

It's too bad they canot be counted on to pot the goals like Chicago's core.



#44 Richdg

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:04 PM

Yes Z and dat have been slowly declining for about 5 years now. Not a giant sudden drop, but the slow one that happens with father time. It will continue. 1 is 32 the other 35. This is to be expected. neither was ever truely a goal scorer. Like most Euro C's they forced themselves to learn to shoot, and did well for several years.neither is very big and yes the season and grind will wear them down. This isn't a surprise. It is normal. It is the fact we have no one to step up and replace/improve over them that is new. When Stevie, Federov, and Shanny started to slow down, we have Z and dat. Now we have..... tatar? Yikes.



#45 kickazz

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:35 PM

I'm not sure if I agree with people who've been saying that Z is "declining" over the years. Sure, his goal scoring ability is far lower than what it used to be, but his assists have gone up. And he's been leading the team in points the past 3 years, albeit he's played more games each season than Datsyuk did. Datsyuk had a broken hand and was forced to play less games. Sure. But to be honest guys, I would rather have a broken hand for one season then have  back problems for 3. Zetterberg's has been leading in points for 3 years and he has been doing it through back problems. I'm not sure how many of us here have played some ice-hockey for local teams but don't you guys agree than back pains can seriously cause you to slow down? And to those of you have experienced it, you know very well as I do that it's not something you recover right away from and it's ALWAYS lurking around if you play a long season. Look closely at Z when he skates, he really does not look anything like he used to in the 08 season, his form is completely different. When he was younger he had more of a "bend" while he skated. If you look now, his plays more in an "erect" posture. Those are signs of someone who has a bad back. Z reminds me of Stevie a lot. He's playing hockey through injury. Not necessarily good for him in the long run but hey, give him credit.

 

I don't think we will be seeing Z able to produce 40 goals and 90 points unless we have another young talent on our team. Z has no way of sitting games out. The pressure is on him and if this continues, he will be aging out way sooner than he should be. Stevie Y was able to play until 40 because of the fact that he had young guys who could step up and take over the goal scoring and point producing for him (this was dats and zet when they were younger), Who does Zet have to fill in his shoes? Nobody... I mean look at Stevie, he had a year off for rest, came back and scored 18  goals and 51 points as a 38 year old as a 3rd line center... That's pretty damn impressive.


Edited by kickazz, 19 April 2013 - 10:41 PM.


#46 Playmaker

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:26 AM

If a team is going to get anywhere, the stars have to play like stars.  I like Pav and Z and realize they are probably battling injuries, but this is what they get paid the big bucks for.  Not trying hard, not playing sound defense, but by putting the puck in the net.  Yes, Franzen and Flip and others need to contribute as well, but it starts at the top. 



#47 kickazz

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:01 AM

If a team is going to get anywhere, the stars have to play like stars.  I like Pav and Z and realize they are probably battling injuries, but this is what they get paid the big bucks for.  Not trying hard, not playing sound defense, but by putting the puck in the net.  Yes, Franzen and Flip and others need to contribute as well, but it starts at the top. 

You can't physically have the speed if you're battling injury and fatigue though. You're comparing apples to oranges when ya say "they're getting payed big bucks". Look at Kobe Bryant, the guy makes more an Z and Dat combined and now he's out of the season with a torn ACL. How is that his fault? Similarly, if Dat and Z are being overworked because they don't have good teammates, how is it theyre fault that theyre fatigued? They're giving it all they can with the little bit of gas they have left. We know for a fact that Z and Pav are the hardest working members on that team. The coaching staff and players have said it to the media.

 

They may look sloppy to us, but they do give it their best. Unfortunately it doesn't work out when youre losing your touch.


Edited by kickazz, 20 April 2013 - 10:04 AM.


#48 Buppy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:10 AM

 

I agree that they're probably have to go young and start with the rebuild now (though I'm not sure that was the plan as recently as a couple weeks ago).  But I hope they don't "stockpile" the young talent.  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.  Seems like if they're going to do this they really need to see what they've got, and they can't do that unless they play these guys and give them good looks.  You're not really doing yourself any favors by loading up on all these young guys only to keep them in GR while guys like Abby, Sammy, Cleary, Colaiacovo, and White are in the lineup.  If you're going to rebuild, it seem like you're still going to have to make the unpleasant choice of cutting guys loose.  And that's something this organization is generally reluctant to do. 

Yes, eventually the young guys have to play, and I believe they will. But most of our prospects haven't yet played pro hockey in NA. Many will be in GR next season. Cleary and White will likely be gone this summer, Sammy, Bert, and Cola likely after next year. The openings will come. Maybe not as quickly or as many as some would like, but they'll be there. Some of the kids will likely wash out in the AHL. Once we have a better idea of what we have, some may be traded away to better balance our strengths. The windows may be small and the kids may have to really excell in limited time to squeeze in.

 

The past and the future are very different situations, so I would expect different behavior from management. Even though some of the decisions this past summer may look similar, to me they look more like stop-gap measures to try to keep us in the playoffs while we wait for the kids to develop some more. And who can say what might have been different if we'd had a real training camp.

 

Likely no different for Andersson and Lashoff. But the spots they'd fill are already filled with young players anyway. Helm, Abby, and Emmy are all young bottom-6 centers. Mursak was a kid getting his chance. Andy's chance likely would have come next year, luckily for him injuries gave it to him sooner. Same for Lashoff, though with all the questions on defense and so many young guys anyway, injuries may have been his only opportunity. Again, lucky for him, and maybe the team as well since now we have a decent 6/7 guy we didn't know we had. I guess that's the silver-lining on the injury cloud.

 

I think Tatar and Nyquist would have had a chance in training camp, though the addition of Brunner didn't help their cause. Bert and Sammy are certainly in the way, but both offer elements that the kids lack. Not a great chance, and maybe not the way I'd have done it, but I can't fault management for trying to remain competetive through a rebuild. Personally, I think they're both trade candidates. I think they're close enough to the NHL that we can safely conclude that neither of them is particularly special, and they're too similar to what we already have. We can try to trade them to address other weaknesses. That we haven't traded them yet is maybe a good thing. Our needs on defense don't seem quite as desperate as they did in the summer, while they have both been valuable injury replacements.

 

Over the next few years, I expect more kids to start trickling in and out while we try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Maybe some more stop-gaps depending on how well guys do; who stays and who goes. Likely to be frustrating, and we'll almost certainly let someone go that will turn out better than we thought. But so long as at least a handful work out well for us, we'll be in good shape once we find our next generation stars. No one's going to like the process, and the boards will be full of ideas for what could be or should have been done, some realistic some not so much. I can understand the impatience, and the thought that we should have started the rebuild sooner. But building takes time, as does decline. We need to be more patient.



#49 Kmahrle83

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:11 AM

I'm not sure if I agree with people who've been saying that Z is "declining" over the years. Sure, his goal scoring ability is far lower than what it used to be, but his assists have gone up. And he's been leading the team in points the past 3 years, albeit he's played more games each season than Datsyuk did. Datsyuk had a broken hand and was forced to play less games. Sure. But to be honest guys, I would rather have a broken hand for one season then have  back problems for 3. Zetterberg's has been leading in points for 3 years and he has been doing it through back problems. I'm not sure how many of us here have played some ice-hockey for local teams but don't you guys agree than back pains can seriously cause you to slow down? And to those of you have experienced it, you know very well as I do that it's not something you recover right away from and it's ALWAYS lurking around if you play a long season. Look closely at Z when he skates, he really does not look anything like he used to in the 08 season, his form is completely different. When he was younger he had more of a "bend" while he skated. If you look now, his plays more in an "erect" posture. Those are signs of someone who has a bad back. Z reminds me of Stevie a lot. He's playing hockey through injury. Not necessarily good for him in the long run but hey, give him credit.

 

I don't think we will be seeing Z able to produce 40 goals and 90 points unless we have another young talent on our team. Z has no way of sitting games out. The pressure is on him and if this continues, he will be aging out way sooner than he should be. Stevie Y was able to play until 40 because of the fact that he had young guys who could step up and take over the goal scoring and point producing for him (this was dats and zet when they were younger), Who does Zet have to fill in his shoes? Nobody... I mean look at Stevie, he had a year off for rest, came back and scored 18  goals and 51 points as a 38 year old as a 3rd line center... That's pretty damn impressive.

 

I played for about 20 years (obviously never made it pro), and in my 19th season, I was playing a holmstrom type role and screening/tipping on the PP.  The defender at one point, spun me around with a shove and my teams defense-men took a slapper from point (mind you he had the hardest shot on our team) which hit me in the lower spine, fracturing a vertebrae.  I had to have surgery that summer, and was able to come right back and play next season, but I was never the same.  I was much slower, couldn't really skate with the jump i had before and, as you pointed out about Z, I had to skate more erect due to the lower back.  The problems from my back (along with other injuries over the years) made me play a completely different way.  It was so bad for me, that I had to stop playing after the 20th season because I was no longer effective in any capacity anymore.  I'm just happy we still have a healthy enough Zetterberg to play and show us magic when he can.  

 

He's past prime years , but as with Pav, when he turns it on, I'm still awed and impressed.


Lets go RED WINGS!!!


#50 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:18 AM

.

Z and Dats have been abysmall with putting shots on goal! Sadly they get the best looks yet still missing net

 

This.

 

For every one of Pav's snipes, he misses the net completely another 20 times.

 

But, again, he isn't a goal scorer so we can't get too upset or surprised about that.



#51 The Axe

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:21 AM

His goal scoring numbers have slowly been dwindling over the years.
 
In his best years, he took a boatload of shots, but had better aim and was good in front of the net.  Now, he just throws pucks from crappy angles like the rest of the team.  


The 40 footer to the chest is a red wings staple. Give the goalie confidence and kills all offensive momentum.

#52 kickazz

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:51 AM

Has it occurred to any of you that maybe these "40 foot shots" that Z takes is due to Babcock telling the team to take as many shots as they can? I mean almost every media interview babcock takes he always says how "we need to be getting the puck to the net", "we need to start taking more shots" etc etc. I wouldn't be quick to jumping conclusions and saying that Z is at fault for taking so many wide angle shots. I mean look at Pavel, he's been shooting more than ever and half his shots are crappy. Imo its the coaching not the players. Let's not forget, Z has one of the best backhanded shots in the game and Pavs got one of the best wrist shots. The problem is, they're double teamed half the time and can't get as many good looks as they used to back in 08 and 09 when we had other top players to help em out and share the load.



#53 Buppy

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:52 AM

 

This.

 

For every one of Pav's snipes, he misses the net completely another 20 times.

 

But, again, he isn't a goal scorer so we can't get too upset or surprised about that.

Not a goal scorer, but he put up 27 or more in 6 straight years (3 over 30), then followed that with 23 in 56 games. But he's at a 25g pace this year. His goal production isn't down nearly as severely as Hank's. His assists are down, but that's far more dependent on the guys around him. (Part of the decline for both is certainly from not playing together as often.) He's also older, and has been playing fewer games the past few years. Hank deserves appreciation for getting his assists up in spite of having less to work with, but he's actually averaging more games the last four years than he did the four years prior to that. Perhaps he's playing games now that he would have sat out in the past. We certainly need him more now.

 

This year, Pav is on pace for 25.4g in 82 games. The last four years he's averaged 27.1 per 82. The four years prior it was 30.5. Hank is on pace for 18 this year. The last four years: 23.1. The four years prior: 41.



#54 Playmaker

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:34 PM

For one, comparing the beer leagues and the NHL is totally irrelevent.  What is the TOI for Hank and Pav?  Neither of them are even in the Top 25 of the league. They're hardly workhorses.   Kobe had games where he didn't leave the floor the entire game AND he lead his team to victory and into the playoffs. 



#55 The Axe

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:40 PM

Hank-Dats-Ryan. All year next year. End of story.

#56 kickazz

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 02:14 PM

For one, comparing the beer leagues and the NHL is totally irrelevent.  What is the TOI for Hank and Pav?  Neither of them are even in the Top 25 of the league. They're hardly workhorses.   Kobe had games where he didn't leave the floor the entire game AND he lead his team to victory and into the playoffs. 

Doesn't matter, Hank and Pav still work harder than the rest of the teammates on THEIR team. The perspective is within team boundaries. The wings have no other good talent and the pressure is on Hank and Pav and they are outright slumping in their play due to lack of effort from other players. It's common sense for anyone whose played the game. You can't be expected to play at 100% and carry your team day in and day out in a shortened season while the rest of the teammates suck.

 

And for the record, Z and Pav one of the few 30+ year old players in the league with high points. Datsyuk being the oldest at 34. Most of the rest of the players leading in points are in their mid 20s.


Edited by kickazz, 20 April 2013 - 02:18 PM.


#57 Playmaker

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:06 PM

Perhaps its the other way around?  Other players aren't doing well because the stars aren't producing?  Like I said, it starts at the top and the effort and production is a trickle down effect.  You don't count on your 4th line guys to inspire your star players. You can pick out various stats, but these guys aren't getting the job done.  Z is supposed to be a defensive player and he's a minus 4?  Brunner hasn't scored in forever and has sat out several games and he still has more goals than Z.  Not expecting either guy to be Ovechkin or Stamkos, but their production has not been good enough.  I can't begin to count how many times both guys have made a blind pass and had it picked off. 



Hank-Dats-Ryan. All year next year. End of story.

Your love affair with Ryan is kind of creepy.



#58 The Axe

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:08 PM

Perhaps its the other way around?  Other players aren't doing well because the stars aren't producing?  Like I said, it starts at the top and the effort and production is a trickle down effect.  You don't count on your 4th line guys to inspire your star players. You can pick out various stats, but these guys aren't getting the job done.  Z is supposed to be a defensive player and he's a minus 4?  Brunner hasn't scored in forever and has sat out several games and he still has more goals than Z.  Not expecting either guy to be Ovechkin or Stamkos, but their production has not been good enough.  I can't begin to count how many times both guys have made a blind pass and had it picked off. 


Your love affair with Ryan is kind of creepy.


I am getting a little over the top with that, eh. OK. I just think he's all that's left out there.

#59 kickazz

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

Perhaps its the other way around?  Other players aren't doing well because the stars aren't producing?  Like I said, it starts at the top and the effort and production is a trickle down effect.  You don't count on your 4th line guys to inspire your star players. You can pick out various stats, but these guys aren't getting the job done.  Z is supposed to be a defensive player and he's a minus 4?  Brunner hasn't scored in forever and has sat out several games and he still has more goals than Z.  Not expecting either guy to be Ovechkin or Stamkos, but their production has not been good enough.  I can't begin to count how many times both guys have made a blind pass and had it picked off. 


 

Nope. It's not the other way around. Just look at the stats. Both Pav and Z are leading in points for their team with 41 and 38 points respectively. Datsyuk is leading in goals with 13. So where does you're logic come in? They're both leading the team. Where's everyone elses production? It's not even close. The next highest point producer after Z and Pav is Kronwall and Franzen at 26. A defenseman and a guy whose missed 7 games? That's terrible. The only other person whose broken 20 is Brunner. Where the hell is Abdelkader? He played on the first line almost every night. Where's his production? If datsyuk has 41 points shouldn't abdelkaders point production somewhat corellate to his? It's not even close.. And what about Cleary? Cleary's played on both first and second lines this season and has played all 43 games and hes sitting at 14 points? and -8? Trust me its not the other way around. Both Datsyuk and Zetterberg are leading their teams in points and the stats show it. The other guys have played just as many games if not more and have nothing to show for. It's simple logic. And on top of that both Z and Pav have been battling injury and fatigue and STILL lead the team in points. None of these other guys have any injury, NOR missed many games, theyre younger and faster and STILL aren't anywhere close in terms of points. Oh and i'm not speaking of 4th line youngsters I'm speaking of young players who have played on the first and second lines. And as I said before Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the few 30+ year old men leading the league in points. 95% of the NHL players who are top 15 in points are in the ages of 23-28. In fact, Zetterberg is the only player in the league besides Thornton whose 30+ and is ranked number 6 in assists, abliet Thornton has played 3 more games than Zet has.

 

You can't expect them to produce like Overtckin with a team that gives them no support offensively. The fact that Zetterberg is tied for rank 6 in assists is impressive especially if this is considered an "off year" for him.


Edited by kickazz, 20 April 2013 - 03:26 PM.


#60 The Axe

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

Nope. It's not the other way around. Just look at the stats. Both Pav and Z are leading in points for their team with 41 and 38 points respectively. Datsyuk is leading in goals with 13. So where does you're logic come in? They're both leading the team. Where's everyone elses production? It's not even close. The next highest point producer after Z and Pav is Kronwall and Franzen at 26. A defenseman and a guy whose missed 7 games? That's terrible. The only other person whose broken 20 is Brunner. Where the hell is Abdelkader? He played on the first line almost every night. Where's his production? If datsyuk has 41 points shouldn't abdelkaders point production somewhat corellate to his? It's not even close.. And what about Cleary? Cleary's played on both first and second lines this season and has played all 43 games and hes sitting at 14 points? and -8? Trust me its not the other way around. Both Datsyuk and Zetterberg are leading their teams in points and the stats show it. The other guys have played just as many games if not more and have nothing to show for. It's simple logic. And on top of their both Z and Pav have been battling injury and fatigue and STILL lead the team in points. None of these other guys have any injury, NOR missed many games, theyre younger and faster and STILL aren't anywhere close in terms of points. Oh and i'm not speaking of 4th line youngsters I'm speaking of young players who have played on the first and second lines. And as I said before Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the few 30+ year old men leading the league in points. 95% of the NHL players who are top 15 in points are in the ages of 23-28. In fact, Zetterberg is the only player in the league besides Thornton whose 30+ and is ranked number 6 in assists, abliet Thornton has played 3 more games than Zet has.


Days and Z are the best guys. Who could be against these 2? Even the fans of other teams like Hank and Pavs.





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