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#101 Richdg

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:04 AM

Now let's have some fun. if I was going to place money on who the RW take in round 1, who is it?

Tough question,but here we go. let's ass-u-me that all 5 of the guys I listed are still there. most  should be Erne is the one most likely to be gone. How wouldI rate/predict the order? As of today I would go: Big Fred, Zykov, Horvat, Erne, Mantha in that order. Why? well style of player. We all joke about Holand's man love for "small skilled euro's". But that is only partly correct. His real man love is good 2 way forwards, which Euro's have a higher % of. Most NA players tend to focus on 1 thing at this age. Of the 5 gus i listed, Big Fred, Zykov, and Horvat are all very good/great 2 way players. They are good offensive players as well and all have good/great size and toughness.

As much as I personnally like Mantha, he is a future Malkin/overchkin type offensive player, i don't think that Holland will go that way. I firmly believe that he would rather have a good defensive player that can score 20-25 goalsover a 40+ goal scorer that doesn't play D at all. Now playing D is a skill that is taught. anyone can learn to back check and block shots. But the Wings have always prefered guys that play defensive first and teach them how to shoot.

 

So as of today my pick: Fred Gauthier 6-5/220 LH C in the 1st round.  



#102 MasterPavel

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:18 AM

Valterri Filppula 2.0, aka Wennberg. If we are staying on your list I think Big Fred would be Holland's pick as well.

#103 Richdg

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:27 PM

Valterri Filppula 2.0, aka Wennberg. If we are staying on your list I think Big Fred would be Holland's pick as well.

Wennberg is compared to Zetterberg all the time. A little bigger and a little faster. But I think he will be gone when we pick.



#104 MasterPavel

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:22 PM

I'm not a scout but I see more Flip in his film, plus the report by scouts is he is a good two way player that needs to polish his offensive side of the game. If he truly projected as a bigger/faster Zetty he would go in the top 5 not 12-45 depending on what scouting service you use. That's just my opinion rich, and mean no offense by it. I appreciate all the time you have put into this thread.

Edited by MasterPavel, 11 June 2013 - 02:37 PM.


#105 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:33 PM

Now let's have some fun. if I was going to place money on who the RW take in round 1, who is it?

Tough question,but here we go. let's ass-u-me that all 5 of the guys I listed are still there. most  should be Erne is the one most likely to be gone. How wouldI rate/predict the order? As of today I would go: Big Fred, Zykov, Horvat, Erne, Mantha in that order. Why? well style of player. We all joke about Holand's man love for "small skilled euro's". But that is only partly correct. His real man love is good 2 way forwards, which Euro's have a higher % of. Most NA players tend to focus on 1 thing at this age. Of the 5 gus i listed, Big Fred, Zykov, and Horvat are all very good/great 2 way players. They are good offensive players as well and all have good/great size and toughness.

As much as I personnally like Mantha, he is a future Malkin/overchkin type offensive player, i don't think that Holland will go that way. I firmly believe that he would rather have a good defensive player that can score 20-25 goalsover a 40+ goal scorer that doesn't play D at all. Now playing D is a skill that is taught. anyone can learn to back check and block shots. But the Wings have always prefered guys that play defensive first and teach them how to shoot.

 

So as of today my pick: Fred Gauthier 6-5/220 LH C in the 1st round.  

 

I really don't know too much about this kid other than what I read on here and a few websites, but if he is really projected to be that type of offensive player Holland would be stupid to pass on him. That is the type of player this team needs and needs badly! We aren't going to acquire Ovi or Malkin, but if we could draft one and develop him, then this team would be in business!

 

That being said I would be ok with Gauthier as well.  I have listed my players I would be happy with, fortunately both Mantha and Gauthier are on that list...too bad Holland doesn't take my phone calls......(anymore....j/k)  :D


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#106 Richdg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:05 AM

 

I really don't know too much about this kid other than what I read on here and a few websites, but if he is really projected to be that type of offensive player Holland would be stupid to pass on him. That is the type of player this team needs and needs badly! We aren't going to acquire Ovi or Malkin, but if we could draft one and develop him, then this team would be in business!

 

That being said I would be ok with Gauthier as well.  I have listed my players I would be happy with, fortunately both Mantha and Gauthier are on that list...too bad Holland doesn't take my phone calls......(anymore....j/k)  :D

I agree. mantha is what we need, but I don't think Holland will go that way. If you look at all the guys on our team/in our system, most are clones of each other. Similier size and skill set. But Holland isn't dumb. he knows he has t replace Cleary, Sammy, Bert, and Franzen over the next 1-3 years. There isn't much in our system that can do that.  



#107 Johnz96

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:48 AM

Not a fan of Domi, and it has nothing to do with his dad. How is he different from the other forwards that we have? Nyquist, tatar, Jarnkrok, etc..... he is a small play making good shooting F. We have a ton of those guys.

As for Rychel, I see him and think a young Dan Cleary. He is an effort guy no doubt. But that is all that he has that stands out. Average size, speed, skills. I just have a hard time seeing him as a future star. IMHO of course.

Domi is going to top out at over 200lbs (if he hasn't already he weighed in at 194lbs last summer at the Knight's camp. He is strong with a low center of gravity who relishes going into the dirty areas and gets under the opponents skin.


Edited by Johnz96, 12 June 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#108 Johnz96

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:08 AM

I agree. mantha is what we need, but I don't think Holland will go that way. If you look at all the guys on our team/in our system, most are clones of each other. Similier size and skill set. But Holland isn't dumb. he knows he has t replace Cleary, Sammy, Bert, and Franzen over the next 1-3 years. There isn't much in our system that can do that.  

We have some  prospects with size too.
At forward we have Jurco, Sheahan, Tvrdon, Aubry, Parkes,  Frk weighed in at 203 (still a growing boy) at the Mooseheads camp last summer and on D Sproul, Lashoff, Nicastro, McKee and Nedomlel.

It's not that Holland favors small guys, it's that by the time the Wings draft all the big guys with talent are usually gone.
Bodin McKee last year
Nedomlel, Tvrdon, Sproul and Jurco in 2011

Aubry, Sheahan in 2010

Nestrasil in 09

Cayer and Nicastro in 08

Andersson and Smith in 07

Oslund and Mathias in 06

Stamler, May, Ryno, Lofberg and Abdelkader in 05

Stoylorov and Kolosov in 04

Kutny, Kollar, Blom Sundin and Quincey in 03

Ericsson, Cuddihy, Berrgren in 02

Jamtin and Grigorenko (he was short but strong and over 200lbs, too bad about his accident) in 01

Ballantine and Kopecky in 00 Jimmie Svennson wasn't big but was a very physical Swedish player

In 98 almost every one was over 200lbs with a few goony types even. Deleeuw, Steen, Hobday, Valtonen, Barnes and Fischer.
 


Edited by Johnz96, 12 June 2013 - 10:58 AM.


#109 Richdg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:56 AM

We have some  prospects with size too.
At forward we have Jurco, Sheahan, Tvrdon, Aubry, Parkes,  Frk weighed in at 203 (still a growing boy) at the Mooseheads camp last summer and on D Sproul, Lashoff, Nicastro, McKee and Nedomlel.

It's not that Holland favors small guys, it's that by the time the Wings draft all the big guys with talent are usually gone.
Bodin McKee last year
Nedomlel, Tvrdon, Sproul and Jurco in 2011

Aubry, Sheahan in 2010

Nestrasil in 09

Cayer and Nicastro in 08

Andersson and Smith in 07

Oslund and Mathias in 06

Stamler, May, Ryno, Lofberg and Abdelkader in 05

Stoylorov and Kolosov in 04

Kutny, Kollar, Blom Sundin and Quincey in 03

Ericsson, Cuddihy, Berrgren in 02

Jamtin and Grigorenko (he was short but strong and over 200lbs, too bad about his accident) in 01

Ballantine and Kopecky in 00 Jimmie Svennson wasn't big but was a very physical Swedish player

In 98 every one was over 200lbs with a few goony types even. Deleeuw, Steen, Hobday, Valtonen, Barnes and Fischer.
 

 

The key here is, most of the bigger guys where drafted in later rounds and have almost 0 chance of ever making it. Even some of the guys you are listing as big, really are not. The average size of a NHL player is 6-1 1/2 and about 210 pounds. That is the league wide average.

Now big by itself means nothing. Same as any other atribute. You need a combo: size+speed+skill. guys like Franzen and Bert come to mind. 6-3/225 or bigger that can do it all-or at one point could do it all. Those are the guys we need to add to our system.



#110 Johnz96

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:07 AM

The key here is, most of the bigger guys where drafted in later rounds and have almost 0 chance of ever making it. Even some of the guys you are listing as big, really are not. The average size of a NHL player is 6-1 1/2 and about 210 pounds. That is the league wide average.

Now big by itself means nothing. Same as any other atribute. You need a combo: size+speed+skill. guys like Franzen and Bert come to mind. 6-3/225 or bigger that can do it all-or at one point could do it all. Those are the guys we need to add to our system.

That's simply not true. Some of them were our first (Jurco, Sheahan, Smith, Kindl, (I missed Kindl on the list), Mathias Abdelkader, Fischer0 or 2nd (Sproul, Lofberg, Quincey, Barnes)pick. Sometimes all of our picks were drafted in later rounds. In 99 our first pick dodn't come until the 6th round and we have had other drafts in which we didn't have a pick in the top 3 rounds


Edited by Johnz96, 12 June 2013 - 03:45 PM.


#111 Johnz96

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:28 AM

The key here is, most of the bigger guys where drafted in later rounds and have almost 0 chance of ever making it. Even some of the guys you are listing as big, really are not. The average size of a NHL player is 6-1 1/2 and about 210 pounds. That is the league wide average.

Now big by itself means nothing. Same as any other atribute. You need a combo: size+speed+skill. guys like Franzen and Bert come to mind. 6-3/225 or bigger that can do it all-or at one point could do it all. Those are the guys we need to add to our system.

I just realized that not only did I miss Kindl but also Franzen on my list of 200lb+ guys drafted by Holland.



#112 Richdg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:41 AM

That's simply not true. Some of them were our first (Jurco, Sheahan, Smith, Kindl, (I missed Kindl on the list), Mathias Abdelkader, Fischer or 2nd (Sproul, Lofberg, Quincey, Barnes)pick. Sometimes all of our picks were drafted in later rounds. In 99 our first pick dodn't come until the 6th round and we have had other drafts in which we didn't have a pick in the top 3 rounds

I am not sure why you are 1. showing every guy drafted by Holland over the last 16 years, most of which are not with the team and/or not playing hockey anymore and 2. I have been very clearly talking about FORWARDS and yet you keep listing Dmen. 3. At no point did I ever say holland never drafts guys with size. Not once. I said very clearly we need to add more guys with size/speed/skill/strength. yes we have a few guys in the system that are bigger forwards. But as history has shown over and over again, 1 out of 5 ever even make it to the NHL. So having 5-10 propsects with some size means we have 1-2 real players



#113 MasterPavel

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:50 AM

I just realized that not only did I miss Kindl but also Franzen on my list of 200lb+ guys drafted by Holland.


Size is overrated to a point, but an example is how the Bruins used their toughness and size to get the Penguins off their game. Playing devils advocate to my own argument is this doesn't apply to our team. We didn't lose to Chicago because we weren't big or tough enough. 1st round we need the best Offensive player available, then in the next rounds find a Bailey/McCarron type to develop into your future top 6 PF. So in essence I think we agree.

#114 Johnz96

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:27 PM

I am not sure why you are 1. showing every guy drafted by Holland over the last 16 years, most of which are not with the team and/or not playing hockey anymore and 2. I have been very clearly talking about FORWARDS and yet you keep listing Dmen. 3. At no point did I ever say holland never drafts guys with size. Not once. I said very clearly we need to add more guys with size/speed/skill/strength. yes we have a few guys in the system that are bigger forwards. But as history has shown over and over again, 1 out of 5 ever even make it to the NHL. So having 5-10 propsects with some size means we have 1-2 real players

That isn't every guy Holland drafted in the last 16 years just the ones who were 200lb+. I am showing them because you erroneosly implied that Holland doesn't like to draft bigger guys and that all our guys have "similier size and skill set"(again implying they are small). And it's not just you, so many people have made comments here implying that Holland only likes to draft small guys. That's simplly not the case.



I know he's small, but I've seen some video of max domi and he seems to have a little of his dad's fire. He must be a pain to play against.
I heard that people question mantha's consistency.

Who do you see Kenny picking? Mantha seems like someone Kenny would pick, but I could also see him picking the fastest available player. Thoughts?

Domi weighed in at 194lbs at the Knight's camp last summer, so he is probably around 200lbs now and still growing (he just turned 18 in March).


Edited by Johnz96, 12 June 2013 - 12:25 PM.


#115 Richdg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:09 PM

That isn't every guy Holland drafted in the last 16 years just the ones who were 200lb+. I am showing them because you erroneosly implied that Holland doesn't like to draft bigger guys and that all our guys have "similier size and skill set"(again implying they are small). And it's not just you, so many people have made comments here implying that Holland only likes to draft small guys. That's simplly not the case.



Domi weighed in at 194lbs at the Knight's camp last summer, so he is probably around 200lbs now and still growing (he just turned 18 in March).

When talking about our present prospects-not just bodies it is true. Now there are a couple of guys with average size in the system. There are no abslutes nor did I say there was.

Guys like Abby and Anderson-our "bigger" forwards are not all that big. They are average sized NHL players. The last 2 big forwards that we drafted and developed are Franzen 6-3/225 and Kopecky-6-3/215 and one isn't on the team.

As for prefered players, yes Holland does like smaller skilled guys that can play his prefered puck posession style. There is no debate about this.

Now I am a firm believer in balance. A team full of big guys isn't going to win a Cup-IE Philly nor are teams filled with small guys. You need both, just like we had 97-2002.



#116 Johnz96

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

When talking about our present prospects-not just bodies it is true. Now there are a couple of guys with average size in the system. There are no abslutes nor did I say there was.

Guys like Abby and Anderson-our "bigger" forwards are not all that big. They are average sized NHL players. The last 2 big forwards that we drafted and developed are Franzen 6-3/225 and Kopecky-6-3/215 and one isn't on the team.

As for prefered players, yes Holland does like smaller skilled guys that can play his prefered puck posession style. There is no debate about this.

Now I am a firm believer in balance. A team full of big guys isn't going to win a Cup-IE Philly nor are teams filled with small guys. You need both, just like we had 97-2002.

Abby is 6'1 220lbs that is bigger than an average NHLer and he is very physical.

We drafted a lot of big players because they were trying to address a need but they would have been better off drafting the best player available (even if he is redundant on the Wings because they have a lot of others like him, he can be a trade commodity ot it could make one of the others like him expendable for a trade commodity).
For example in 05 we would have fared better if we drafted Stasny over Abdelkader even though he is smaller and Yandle over Lofberg even though Yandle is smaller.
You have to pick who you deem to be the best player available regardless of position, size or playing style, because most players drafted after the first round won't even make it in the bigs for a cup of coffee and most players in ther first round don't even end up making an impact.
There is only a handful of players from the 05 draft, drafted after the first round that made it to the bigs for more than just a cup of coffee ands 2 of them were picked by the Wings (Abby and Helmer). I am sure if you look at most other drafts, the same will be true.
Everything else being equal, a bigger guy is always better than a smaller guy whetherr you play a puck possession style or dump and chase. The best big prospects are always snapped up before the Wings pick.


Edited by Johnz96, 12 June 2013 - 04:05 PM.


#117 Richdg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:02 PM

Abby is 6'1 220lbs that is bigger than an average NHLer and he is very physical.

We drafted a lot of big players because they were trying to address a need but they would have been better off drafting the best player available (even if he is redundant on the Wings because they have a lot of others like him, he can be a trade commodity ot it could make one of the others like him expendable for a trade commodity).
For example in 05 we would have fared better if we drafted Stasny over Abdelkader even though he is smaller and Yandle over Lofberg even though Yandle is smaller.
You have to pick who you deem to be the best player available regardless of position, size or playing style, because most players drafted after the first round won't even make it in the bigs for a cup of coffee and most players in ther first round don't even end up making an impact.
There is only a handful of players from the 05 draft, drafted after the first round that made it to the bigs for more than just a cup of coffee ands 2 of them were picked by the Wings (Abby and Helmer). I am sure if you look at most other drafts, the same will be true.
Everything else being equal, a bigger guy is always better than a smaller guy whetherr you play a puck possession style or dump and chase. The best big prospects are always snapped up before the Wings pick.

No Abby is about average. he is not "very physical". he is average in that department, maybe slightly above. In 2011/12 Abby had 148 hits. Not bad, that was 49th in the league amoung forwards. That was 220 hits behind the league leader Martin. Now don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Abby and we need MORE GUYS LIKE HIM.  

Now who in the draft is equal to Abby or better? Those are or should be our targets. That is the point. We have a bunch of guys like Filppula/Tatar/Nyquist/Jarnkrok etc.....



#118 Richdg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:07 PM

Now, lets talk the second round. If we take Big Fred in the first, a big 6-5/220 LH C who do we take in the second?

If McCarron is there we have to take him.But will he be there at 48? Not sure about that. Big RH American wings that can score go fast. So let's pretend he is gone (mother F...ers you better not take him). But if that happens, who? Bailey would be a great choice here. he has good size at 6-3/190, is RHed, has good speed and could be a C as well as RW. Those would be my top 2 choices.

Of course any 1st rounders that drop should lso be looked at. Of the guys I am focusing on for the first round, the one most likely to slide into the second is Zykov. Call it the Russian factor-even though he is playing over here already or just flat north american bias.

In the end, all 3 guys are RHed power forwards, and I would be happy as a pig in mud with any of them.

Starting a draft with 6-5/220 LH C Gauthier an then 6-5/230 RH RW McCarron would be freaking awesome!

Tomorrow we will do the 3rd round. In this draft the 3rd and 4th rounds will determine if we have a good draft or a great draft.


Edited by Richdg, 12 June 2013 - 10:14 PM.


#119 LeftWinger

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:09 PM

Domi won't be able to hit like that in the NHL, we all know huge hits like that are 99% called charging and then suspended, especially if the hittee is hurt on the play...that is just how it is...


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#120 MasterPavel

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:44 AM

Domi won't be able to hit like that in the NHL, we all know huge hits like that are 99% called charging and then suspended, especially if the hittee is hurt on the play...that is just how it is...

There was absolutely nothing wrong with that hit. I understand where you are coming from due to the fallout from Abby's hit, but the coaches will develop his hitting to be within the rules. Johnz point, as I understood it, was that Domi likes to play physical which is encouraging. I really hope he is available at 18, and I think he is going to develop into being a physical version of St. Louis.

Edited by MasterPavel, 13 June 2013 - 10:46 AM.






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