Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Detroit: Circa June 2018...


  • Please log in to reply
197 replies to this topic

#141 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:36 AM

That is a flat out lie and you know it. In fact, the best teams in the NHL all have 3, 4, 5 guys off of this list. How many do we have? 1. Kronwall and he is a borderline guy.

Boston is/has built around rask, Horton and other.

Pitt: Crosby, malkin, Orpik, Fluery, Staal who became Sutter.

Wash: Ovechkin, Green, Carlson, Backstrom

carolina: Staal and Sutter who became Staal

Florida: Weiss and Goc

etc etc etc.......

I you don't see that you are either blind, a fool, and just trying to argue. Either way doesn't matter. In todays NHL you build through the draft and then keep your own talent. You can't miss in the 1st round. If you do you will dry up in time.



When you say things like this, you really make yourself look foolish. 1 or 2 pr draft? LOL! I am not sure to debate with you or ignore you after that. That is so wrong it isn't even funny. But since you like to post I will answer.

here are the 1st round stars out of each draft from 2000 through 2009. The drafts after that are in the still to soon to know grou.

2000: Heatley, Gaborik, Klesla, Hartnell, Orpik, Boyes, Williams, Kronwall-8 that really made it.

2001: Kovolchuk, Spezza, Weiss, Goc-4 the worst year

2002: Nash, Bouwmeester, Semin, Ward-4 the worst year

2003: (this years draft is believed to rival this draft) Floury, Staal, Horton, Vanek, Michalek, Suter, Phaneuf, Carter, Brown, Seabrook, Parise, getzlef, Kesler, Richards, Perry-15 stars

2004: Ovechkin, Malkin, Ladd, Smid, Stafford, Zajac, Schneider, Green-8

2005: Crosby, Ryan, Johnson, Price, Kopitar, Hanzel, Rask, Oshie-8

2006: E Johnson, J Staal, Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Okposo, Giroux, Bergland-8

2007: Kane, van Riemsdyk, Voracek, Couture, Sutter, McDonugh, Pacieretti-7

2008: Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian, Schenn, Boedker, Myers, Karlsson, Del Zotto, Eberle, Carlson-10

2009: Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, Kane, Schenn, OEL-6

That makes 78 in 10 years, or a 8 star per year average. Yes you get a stinker year once in a while and you get a loaded year once in a while-like this year.

Of the names listed above, how many are under 6 ft tall? 1 or 2. Giroux is the only one off of the top of my head. The game is getting bigger and will continue to do so. yes a smaller guy can play, but the odds are very much against him. we need players with the odds in our favor that can become stars to lead this team over the next 15-20 years.



Yes. I didn't even get to that part yet. Diabetes is something that robs many of their strength. In the NFL-where this is common, once a guy develops it, they tend to have very short careers. No it is not a sure fire kiss of death, and depending on what type of diabetes it can be controlled and guys can have long careers. But again, this is a very deep draft filled with talented players. Why should we take that risk? we need some sure fire home runs this year. Like we did in 1983. Yzerman, Ysebert, Probert, Klima, Kocur, Grimson all in the same draft. All forwards and as a group gave us everything a team needs: speed, skill, size, toughness, leadership.



#142 MasterPavel

MasterPavel

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 400 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:21 PM

Let's keep it classy boys...

#143 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

Let's keep it classy boys...

I am trying. Sometimes it is hard to soar like an eagle, when you are surrounded by turkeys! LOL I kid I kid.

 

before we got side tracked, I was talking about this years draft and who I think we should take and why those picks make sense for us to take them. 1. They will be available. 2. These guys match up to our teams weaknesses. That is/was my point. Now people are free to disagree, that is fine. if someone really likes another player, great! More power to you. We all have our own opinions. But for some to come out and say certian things, that are completely false is a little hard to take. In this day and age EVERY team in every sport is trying to build through the draft. Every team drafts guys in the 1st round with the intention of building around them. That is the whole point of the draft. No every first round pick does not turn into a star. About 8 per year do, with another 8-10 that merely become solid NHL players. That of course leaves another 8-10 that don't make it at all for one reason or another. Most of the time being injury.

Now does size matter? yes it does. To be specific, height matters. it is becoming harder and harder for guys under 6ft tall to succeed in the NHL. The human race as a whole continues to grow and so do hockey players. of the top 50 in points this year, only 10 (20%) where under 6ft tall. 7 of those 10 were 5-11. That means 6% of the of the top 50 were 5-10 or less, which is Domis height (5-9). As I said before very cleary, yes he can make it. But the odds are against him. We have much better odds with other guys. That was my point before all the extra got added in.



#144 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:43 PM

Now before I do rounds 5-7, which to be honest are a 100% crap shoot, let's stop and look at where the W would be with the draft I have laid out. My dream mock draft is: Gauthier, McCarron, Hayden, and Yakimov. Looking down the road a couple of years and adding these 4 to our current prospects that I feel are most likely to make, and vets most likely to still be around, we have the following group:

Nyquist, Andersson, Tatar, Jurco, Emmerton, Helm, Abby, Brunner, Sheahan, McKee (still hope he moves to LW), Gauthier, McCarron, Hayden, and Yakimov. That is a very good and balanced group. Speed, skill, size, toughness, RH and LH shooters. If we are talking 2018/19 time frame only Abby, Helm, and Brunner would be over 30, so youth would be on our side. This of course doesn't include any future drafts, trades or FA signings. This is a nice group of forwards to build off of and develop a long term plan around. Will all of these guys make it? No. Some will get hurt, other flame out, some may be traded or leave via FA.

 

Next up: the blind luck part of the draft, rounds 5-7.



#145 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:45 PM

I am trying. Sometimes it is hard to soar like an eagle, when you are surrounded by turkeys! LOL I kid I kid.

 

before we got side tracked, I was talking about this years draft and who I think we should take and why those picks make sense for us to take them. 1. They will be available. 2. These guys match up to our teams weaknesses. That is/was my point. Now people are free to disagree, that is fine. if someone really likes another player, great! More power to you. We all have our own opinions. But for some to come out and say certian things, that are completely false is a little hard to take. In this day and age EVERY team in every sport is trying to build through the draft. Every team drafts guys in the 1st round with the intention of building around them. That is the whole point of the draft. No every first round pick does not turn into a star. About 8 per year do, with another 8-10 that merely become solid NHL players. That of course leaves another 8-10 that don't make it at all for one reason or another. Most of the time being injury.

Now does size matter? yes it does. To be specific, height matters. it is becoming harder and harder for guys under 6ft tall to succeed in the NHL. The human race as a whole continues to grow and so do hockey players. of the top 50 in points this year, only 10 (20%) where under 6ft tall. 7 of those 10 were 5-11. That means 6% of the of the top 50 were 5-10 or less, which is Domis height (5-9). As I said before very cleary, yes he can make it. But the odds are against him. We have much better odds with other guys. That was my point before all the extra got added in.

Actually 11 of the top 50 are under 6'0"
St. Louis, Crosby, Kane, Datsyuk Giroux, Zetterberg, Duchene, Parise, Gagner, Eberle, Marchand,
25 were over 6'O"
14 were 6'0". The most common height, we need to look for someone who will be 6'0". Domi is actually listed at 5'10 but is growing, he just might make it.


Edited by Johnz96, 14 June 2013 - 02:49 PM.


#146 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,547 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:47 PM

When you say things like this, you really make yourself look foolish. 1 or 2 pr draft? LOL! I am not sure to debate with you or ignore you after that. That is so wrong it isn't even funny. But since you like to post I will answer.
here are the 1st round stars out of each draft from 2000 through 2009. The drafts after that are in the still to soon to know grou.
2000: Heatley, Gaborik, Klesla, Hartnell, Orpik, Boyes, Williams, Kronwall-8 that really made it.
2001: Kovolchuk, Spezza, Weiss, Goc-4 the worst year
2002: Nash, Bouwmeester, Semin, Ward-4 the worst year
2003: (this years draft is believed to rival this draft) Floury, Staal, Horton, Vanek, Michalek, Suter, Phaneuf, Carter, Brown, Seabrook, Parise, getzlef, Kesler, Richards, Perry-15 stars
2004: Ovechkin, Malkin, Ladd, Smid, Stafford, Zajac, Schneider, Green-8
2005: Crosby, Ryan, Johnson, Price, Kopitar, Hanzel, Rask, Oshie-8
2006: E Johnson, J Staal, Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Okposo, Giroux, Bergland-8
2007: Kane, van Riemsdyk, Voracek, Couture, Sutter, McDonugh, Pacieretti-7
2008: Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian, Schenn, Boedker, Myers, Karlsson, Del Zotto, Eberle, Carlson-10
2009: Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, Kane, Schenn, OEL-6
That makes 78 in 10 years, or a 8 star per year average. Yes you get a stinker year once in a while and you get a loaded year once in a while-like this year.
Of the names listed above, how many are under 6 ft tall? 1 or 2. Giroux is the only one off of the top of my head. The game is getting bigger and will continue to do so. yes a smaller guy can play, but the odds are very much against him. we need players with the odds in our favor that can become stars to lead this team over the next 15-20 years.


Yes. I didn't even get to that part yet. Diabetes is something that robs many of their strength. In the NFL-where this is common, once a guy develops it, they tend to have very short careers. No it is not a sure fire kiss of death, and depending on what type of diabetes it can be controlled and guys can have long careers. But again, this is a very deep draft filled with talented players. Why should we take that risk? we need some sure fire home runs this year. Like we did in 1983. Yzerman, Ysebert, Probert, Klima, Kocur, Grimson all in the same draft. All forwards and as a group gave us everything a team needs: speed, skill, size, toughness, leadership.


You call me a fool and then list Boedker as someone you'd build a team around? Really?

You build teams around franchise players/legit stars, not ladislav smid lol. Of your list I count about 26 stars. So on average about a little over 2 each year. Nice try though.

#147 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:54 PM

Now before I do rounds 5-7, which to be honest are a 100% crap shoot, let's stop and look at where the W would be with the draft I have laid out. My dream mock draft is: Gauthier, McCarron, Hayden, and Yakimov. Looking down the road a couple of years and adding these 4 to our current prospects that I feel are most likely to make, and vets most likely to still be around, we have the following group:

Nyquist, Andersson, Tatar, Jurco, Emmerton, Helm, Abby, Brunner, Sheahan, McKee (still hope he moves to LW), Gauthier, McCarron, Hayden, and Yakimov. That is a very good and balanced group. Speed, skill, size, toughness, RH and LH shooters. If we are talking 2018/19 time frame only Abby, Helm, and Brunner would be over 30, so youth would be on our side. This of course doesn't include any future drafts, trades or FA signings. This is a nice group of forwards to build off of and develop a long term plan around. Will all of these guys make it? No. Some will get hurt, other flame out, some may be traded or leave via FA.

 

Next up: the blind luck part of the draft, rounds 5-7.

It's all blind luck for those of us that don't watch a lot of their games,  don't interview them, their teammates, family and coaches, don't have privy to their fitness tests but not for scouts who get paid to do all that.



You call me a fool and then list Boedker as someone you'd build a team around? Really?

You build teams around franchise players/legit stars, not ladislav smid lol. Of your list I count about 26 stars. So on average about a little over 2 each year. Nice try though.

Lol, the only one he listed for the 2000 draft that you could arguably make that claim for is Kronwall who was 5'11 180lbs at the time.

Klesla, Boyes Orpik. :lol:



#148 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,547 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:59 PM

It's all blind luck for those of us that don't watch a lot of their games,  don't interview them, their teammates, family and coaches, don't have privy to their fitness tests but not for scouts who get paid to do all that.


Lol, the only one he listed for the 2000 draft that you could arguably make that claim for is Kronwall who was 5'11 180lbs at the time.
Klesla, Boyes Orpik. :lol:



Yeah I wouldn't call kronwall a build around player either

#149 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:02 PM

Yeah I wouldn't call kronwall a build around player either

I was kinda being a homer there. ;)



#150 The Axe

The Axe

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,379 posts

Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:18 PM

Yeah I wouldn't call kronwall a build around player either


You dont like Kronner?

#151 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,547 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:46 AM

You dont like Kronner?


Is that what I said? Or can you not read?

#152 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:36 AM

Ok back. Was way to busy over the weekend. Now time to look at the hope and pray part of the draft, rounds 5-7. Normally you are lucky to find AHL quality players in these late rounds. Most teams tend to look for 1 thing: size or speed that a guy has and take a gamble. Again, this is a deep draft. There will be some future NHLers taken in the later rounds.

Before I add some new names to the pot, there are a couple guys already mentioned that could slide into the 5th round.

Buckles and Hill. Buckles 6-2/210 RH C has been every where in mock drafts. From the 3rd round through the 6th round. he has size, speed, and is a producer, but he has been playing at a lower level to preserve his eligability for college. if he is available in the 5th, this would be a true steal.

Tyler Hill 6-6/225 LH LW. before the seaason there was a ton of buzz about this kid. Then he had a "disappointing" USHL season. Now CS has him in the 180's of NA skaters. Another kid that if drafted in the 5th or later rounds could be a steal. But he is also a guy that never signs.

Now for some new names:

Saku Maenalenen 6-3/185 LW

Jorgen Karterud 6-4/190 LW

Jake Montgomery 6-3/195 LW

Mitchell Dempsey 6-3/210 LW

Williem Haag 6-1/200 RW

Sergei Kuptsov 6-2/212 RW

Viktor Crus-Rydberg 6-0/190 C

Jordan malette 6-2/200 C

Maxim Mamin 6-1/185 C

Jonathon Ismael Diaby 6-5/225 D

Parker Reno 6-2/195 D

Tyler Stanton 6-3/175 D

Alexei Bereglozov 6-4/190 D

Anton Cederholm 6-2/205 D

Marcus Hogberg G

Antoine Bibeau 6-1/210 G

 

Most of these guys have good talent. But all have a question mark. For the Russians much of it is "will they come over". Others it is foot speed, or work ethic. But that is the name of the game at this point of the draft.



#153 The Axe

The Axe

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,379 posts

Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:24 PM

Is that what I said? Or can you not read?


Well, we DID build our defense around him...

#154 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,547 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

Well, we DID build our defense around him...

yeah and Edmonton built there's around Justin Schultz... but that doesn't make him a foundational player. Just means they don't have one at defense.


Edited by number9, 17 June 2013 - 02:46 PM.


#155 MasterPavel

MasterPavel

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 400 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:23 AM

yeah and Edmonton built there's around Justin Schultz... but that doesn't make him a foundational player. Just means they don't have one at defense.


I think by definition that makes them foundation's of a defense, which was axe's point.

#156 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,547 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:28 AM

I think by definition that makes them foundation's of a defense, which was axe's point.


Good lord. A player you build a team around is a #1 guy, not a #3 caliber guy who happens to be playing the #1 spot because there's no one ahead of him. I understand your points but its irrelevant to the original argument.

Edited by number9, 18 June 2013 - 09:29 AM.


#157 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:48 AM

Good lord. A player you build a team around is a #1 guy, not a #3 caliber guy who happens to be playing the #1 spot because there's no one ahead of him. I understand your points but its irrelevant to the original argument.

Kronwall is one of the 10 best d-men in the league but I still woiuldn't say he is someone to build a team around.



#158 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:12 AM

You build around what you HAVE, not what you wish you had. We can all argue until we are blue in the face if player X is a true #1 D or a top C etc..... But that really don't matter, because there is only so many of those type of players around. Everyone would love to have Weber to build their blue line around, or a Nicky, but again, there is only one Weber and was only one Nick. A number 1 D on one team might only be a number 3 on another team. But that doesn't change the fact that you build around them. Then when someone better develops, you change and build around them.



#159 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,547 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:51 AM

You build around what you HAVE, not what you wish you had. We can all argue until we are blue in the face if player X is a true #1 D or a top C etc..... But that really don't matter, because there is only so many of those type of players around. Everyone would love to have Weber to build their blue line around, or a Nicky, but again, there is only one Weber and was only one Nick. A number 1 D on one team might only be a number 3 on another team. But that doesn't change the fact that you build around them. Then when someone better develops, you change and build around them.


I don't think we're building around Kronwall at all. We're building a pretty balanced D right now. Nicky is the kind of guy you build AROUND

#160 MasterPavel

MasterPavel

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 400 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:57 PM

I don't think we're building around Kronwall at all. We're building a pretty balanced D right now. Nicky is the kind of guy you build AROUND


You're awfully excitable sir...





Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users