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Guest blueadams

Rebuilding Thoughts..

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If we make the playoffs, I guess there's always a chance that an 8-seed could make a run. But, given those chances, I'd like to talk about the rebuilding process that we're going to be going through here. I'm just going to be speaking in very general terms here. Just kind of feeling things out. Don't take anything I say too concretely. Just interested in gathering some board opinions about our team moving ahead.

Coaching.

...There's no shortage of things Mike Babcock does that I hate. But he's still generall
y regarded as one of the very best coaches in the world. He's not retiring anytime soon. And who the hell are you going to replace him with!? He's probably our guy for the foreseeable future. And that's fine.

Goalies.

...Jimm
y's a decent goalie. He doesn't win you games. He doesn't lose you games. He's about to be way overpaid for such a goalie. But, whatever I guess. He's here for the next seven years. He's decent. At age 29, he's probably got at least 5 more decent seasons in him. Petr Mrazek (21) is a prospect I personally really like, and he should at least make for a decent backup (if not someone who pushes Jimmy). Gus is here for one more season, then probably replaced by him. I guess we're set at goalie for the foreseeable future as well. McCollum is at least worth mentioning as potentially being a decent third goalie.

Defensemen.

...Kronwall's sort of been exposed this season, without Lidstrom and Stuart out there. But he's still decent, and a fine leader for our defensive core moving ahead. Here for the next seven seasons. At age 32, probably has 5 decent seasons left in him. That's one check. Ericsson, at age 29, is a decent defenseman as well, and another check-mark. A free-agent after next season, I'm guessing he'll be retained. This DeKeyser (23) looks great. He's a RFA after next season and I'm sure he'll be brought back. That's a third check-mark. Smith (24) has shown a lot of flaws, but idk, I guess I'm going to continue believing in him. An RFA this off-season, I'm sure he'll be brought back. That's a fourth check-mark. Lashoff (22), IMO, is a decent and cheap enough 7th defenseman to be considered as a fifth check-mark. Kindl's (26) an RFA after this season. I'm sure he'll be brought back. Next season is do or die for him though. Could be a bottom-pair defenseman. Could be gone. Quincey (27) I abhor. He's gone after next season. White (28), who's misused, is gone after this season. Colaiacovo (30) is a waste of cap space, he's gone after next season.

...All in all. 4 solid pieces moving ahead (Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Smith). A solid 7th defenseman in Lashoff. So, here, we need to add at least one defenseman soon, preferably a stud. And we might need to add one more, depending on Kindl's next season. *Should've been Suter and Schwartz this off-season, but I won't get into that. Sproul and Oullet are at least worth mentioning as prospects that might have a chance.

Forwards.

...Zetterberg's here for another nine seasons. At 32, he should be decent for another five. Fine leader moving ahead. That's one check-mark. Franzen's here for another eight seasons. Alread
y deteriorating at 33, I wouldn't expect him to be more than a decent third-liner in five seasons. I guess that's a check-mark. Nyquist (23) is an RFA after this season. He'll be brought back. He can be penciled in a top-six forward. That's a third check-mark. Helm (26), presuming he gets healthy, is a solid bottom-sixer. He's here for another three seasons. That's a fourth check-mark. Abdelkader (26) is a decent enough bottom-sixer. He's here for another three seasons as well. That's a fifth check-mark. Andersson (24) is an RFA after this season. He'll be brought back. He looks like a decent enough bottom-sixer. That's a sixth check-mark. Emmerton (24) is here for another season. I like a lot about him, and think he's decent enough to be a 13th forward moving ahead. That's a seventh check-mark. Tootoo (30) is here for two more seasons. He's decent enough to be your 14th forward/fighter moving ahead. That's an eighth check-mark. Brunner (27) is a FA at the end of the season. I think he'll be brought back. He can be penciled in as a top-sixer. That's a ninth check mark. Filppula (29) too is a FA at the end of the season. Worst year of his career, but I think he'll be brought back as well, cheap. He can be penciled into the top six. That's a tenth check-mark. Datsyuk (34) has been rumored to return to Russia after next season. I think we'll bend over backwards to make him happy and retain him. He's got another 5 decent seasons in him as a top-sixer. That's an eleventh check-mark. Sammy (36) is a waste of cap-space. He's here one more season, then gone. Cleary (34) is done an gone after this season. Bert (38) is a waste of cap-space. He's here one more season, then gone. Eaves (28) doesn't seem to have a long-term place here. He's here one more season, then gone. Miller (29) doesn't seem to have a long-term place here either. He's probably gone after next season.

...Leaves at least three forward spots open. Top internal candidates are Tatar, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Pulkkinen, Jurco, Frk. I guess we'll see who pans out among them. Big time FA's should be a priority too.

Conclusion:

...There's a plethora of bad contracts with one season remaining on this team. There are a number of prospects for whom next season will be incredibly telling. Salary-cap space is on the horizon though. And another championship-run is not totally inconceivable.

...Top-Six Forwards: P. Datsyuk, H. Zetterberg, V. Filppula, G. Nyquist, D. Brunner, ??? (Tatar, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Frk - have a chance)
...Bottom-Six Forwards: D. Helm, J. Franzen, J. Abdelkader, J. Andersson, ???, ??? (Sheahan, Jurco - have a chance).
...Reserve Forwards: C. Emmerton, J. Tootoo
...Defensemen: N. Kronwall, J. Ericsson, D. DeKe
yser, B. Smith, ???, ??? (Kindl, Sproul, Oullet - have a chance)
...Reserve Defenseman: B. Lashoff

...Goalies: J. Howard, P. Mrazek (T. McCollum-3rd)
...Head Coach: M. Babcock


???-Datsyuk-Brunner
N
yquist-Zetterberg-Tatar

Franzen-Filppula-Jarnkrok/Pulkkinen/Frk
Abdelkader-Helm-Jurco/Sheahan/Andersson
Emmerton, Tootoo

Kronwall-???
DeKe
yser-Ericsson
Smith-???/Kindl/Sproul/Oullet
Lashoff

Howard
Mrazek
McCollum

*Get a #1 scoring winger. A #1 two-way defenseman. Perhaps another good defenseman (*cough*Parise, Suter, Schultz*cough*) and we're set.

Thoughts?

Edited by blueadams

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Quite a manifesto. I think with the possibility of making the playoffs, maybe we hold off a few weeks on rebuilding and just enjoy watching the boys play some good hockey. I agree with you, they need to jettison a lot of dead weight and players past their prime, maybe trade a few of those prospects for established NHL talent, but let's enjoy the ride for the moment? :)

puckbags likes this

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Goalies.

...Jimmy's a decent goalie. He doesn't win you games. He doesn't lose you games. He's about to be way overpaid for such a goalie. But, whatever I guess. He's here for the next seven years. He's decent.

....what?

Basically you seem to think everyone either sucks or is 'decent'.

Ally and cupforwings like this

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I'm sorry, but I am going to have to disagree with you on the Jimmy Howard point. to say that he doesn't win us games I believe is a vast understatement. Our biggest problems this season was a very young new D, with no Nick Lidstrom and a very lack luster offense that has trouble scoring. Yet we are still in a playoff hunt and in the process beating some top teams. We aren't winning barn burners. We are winning game because Howard is keeping the opposition to 2 goals or less and a lot of times its 1. Howard has had A LOT of great games this season where he has stood on his head for this team and we won, and also A LOT where he has and wasn't rewarded for it because our offense has trouble with scoring.

I know this is a bold prediction but Howard will be talked about as a Vezina canidate next season and possibly a nominee. He already was last season until his injury, and would have been this season if he didn't have his slow start which I chalk up to not playing for 9 months before the season started. With the short off season and no lock out, Howard will do work next season. I feel very confident about that.

Edit: HAHA glad as I was typing this, 3 other people agreed with me.

Edited by Crashnburnluder

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the fact that you think Jimmy is not a good goalie and cannot win us games makes me sick. and to say franzen is a bottom 6 player is quite a stretch, I've never seen a bottom 6 30 goal scorer, just saying

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God, I hate these threads.

I respect that everyone has their own opinion, but to constantly go up and down the roster with one's "evaluations" is a tired topic.

Granted I didn't read most of it, but to have Franzen in the bottom six with Filppula in the top six? Where am I? What year is it?

Ally likes this

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Guys chill out with the Jimmy Howard rant. Jimmy is a great season goalie and has been this year. He still has to prove himself as a playoff goalie. I think people who are on his case need to lay off a bit cuz he's actually doing good right now and those of you who are worshipping him need to take a step back and wait until he gives us some playoff depth. We're jumping to conclusions too quickly with him. He's been solid thus far this year, lets hope he can continue this into the postseason. Remember, we haven't gotten past the second round in the playoffs since Jimmy took over from Ozzy in 2010. Let's hope this is the year Jimmy can pull a Jonathon Quick and get us far.



the fact that you think Jimmy is not a good goalie and cannot win us games makes me sick. and to say franzen is a bottom 6 player is quite a stretch, I've never seen a bottom 6 30 goal scorer, just saying

Well.... Technically in the 7 seasons in the NHL, Franzen has only had 1 "30 goal" season. He's more of a high 20's scorer. But yes, we see your point.

Edited by kickazz

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the fact that you think Jimmy is not a good goalie and cannot win us games makes me sick.

Right. I bet Blueadams thought Osgood was Sawchuck reincarnate too...

Jimmy may be, talent wise, only surpassed by Sawchuck, Hall, Hasek, and Joseph in our team history.

I've said it before and ill say it again, Jimmy Howard has stole more games for us in his short career than Osgood ever did and I watch less games now than I did when Ozzy was playing. Jimmy haters blow my mind.

Edited by achildr1

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Guys chill out with the Jimmy Howard rant. Jimmy is a great season goalie and has been this year. He still has to prove himself as a playoff goalie. I think people who are on his case need to lay off a bit cuz he's actually doing good right now and those of you who are worshipping him need to take a step back and wait until he gives us some playoff depth. We're jumping to conclusions too quickly with him. He's been solid thus far this year, lets hope he can continue this into the postseason. Remember, we haven't gotten past the second round in the playoffs since Jimmy took over from Ozzy in 2010. Let's hope this is the year Jimmy can pull a Jonathon Quick and get us far.

Well.... Technically in the 7 seasons in the NHL, Franzen has only had 1 "30 goal" season. He's more of a high 20's scorer. But yes, we see your point.

We also haven't had consistent offense or defense since 09 (offense) and 08 (defense-McLellan leaving).

cupforwings likes this

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Guys chill out with the Jimmy Howard rant. Jimmy is a great season goalie and has been this year. He still has to prove himself as a playoff goalie. I think people who are on his case need to lay off a bit cuz he's actually doing good right now and those of you who are worshipping him need to take a step back and wait until he gives us some playoff depth. We're jumping to conclusions too quickly with him. He's been solid thus far this year, lets hope he can continue this into the postseason. Remember, we haven't gotten past the second round in the playoffs since Jimmy took over from Ozzy in 2010.

That has far more to do with our declining talent and declining drive to actually win. Almost every player on the team had won the Cup when Ozzy left and it was painfully obvious to me that we didn't want it as badly as other teams.

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Was the entry on your word of the day calendar "decent"?

So the MVP for the team this season is only decent & overpaid on his new contract? The guy that's being mentioned in some circles as a dark horse for a Vezina nom this season? I'm going to stop there...

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GOOD LORD. I said I think Jimmy is decent, and we're set with him. You think Jimmy is some level of good, and we're set with him. Either way, we're all in agreement that we're set with him. Leave the semantics alone. Talk about something more relevant.

WRT to Franzen vs. Filppula, Top-Six vs. Bottom-Six. Franzen is 4
years older, slipping faster than Filppula with age (IMO), and big enough for the bottom-six. Five years from now, I envision him as a third line winger. Five years from now, I envision Filppula as a second-line winger, or perhaps third-line center (depending on who's brought in).

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Guys chill out with the Jimmy Howard rant. Jimmy is a great season goalie and has been this year. He still has to prove himself as a playoff goalie. I think people who are on his case need to lay off a bit cuz he's actually doing good right now and those of you who are worshipping him need to take a step back and wait until he gives us some playoff depth. We're jumping to conclusions too quickly with him. He's been solid thus far this year, lets hope he can continue this into the postseason. Remember, we haven't gotten past the second round in the playoffs since Jimmy took over from Ozzy in 2010. Let's hope this is the year Jimmy can pull a Jonathon Quick and get us far.

Just because he hasn't taken us past the 2nd round doesn't mean he hasn't played well. Those Sharks series when we were getting bitchslapped up and down the ice, it was only Jimmy (and Pav) that managed to get them to 7 games.

Euro_Twins likes this

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GOOD LORD. I said I think Jimmy is decent, and we're set with him. You think Jimmy is some level of good, and we're set with him. Either way, we're all in agreement that we're set with him. Leave the semantics alone. Talk about something more relevant.

WRT to Franzen vs. Filppula, Top-Six vs. Bottom-Six. Franzen is 4 years older, slipping faster than Filppula with age (IMO), and big enough for the bottom-six. Five years from now, I envision him as a third line winger. Five years from now, I envision Filppula as a second-line winger, or perhaps third-line center (depending on who's brought in).

Franzen may "float" but he has not declined production wise yet, in fact ppg this is his best season. Filppula is 4 years younger, and cannot even remotely replicate his numbers from last season. by that effect tootoo should be a top 6er cause he is younger too?

Just because he hasn't taken us past the 2nd round doesn't mean he hasn't played well. Those Sharks series when we were getting bitchslapped up and down the ice, it was only Jimmy (and Pav) that managed to get them to 7 games.

this.

Everyone complains about how poor he plays in the playoffs, when in reality he didn't. two years ago his post season numbers were better then his regular seasons were, and his post season average isn't too bad. Ya he let in some softies, but he was also solid for us too

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We also haven't had consistent offense or defense since 09 (offense) and 08 (defense-McLellan leaving).

Nonetheless we still had lidstrom, stuart, rafalski. Look my point, is Jimmy was obviously not experienced enough his first few years. This MAY be the year where he shines.

Edited by kickazz

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You lost me right there.

Right on...A decent goalie doesn't get Vezina consideration.

The semantics issue would be valid if we were talking great vs elite, but 'decent' is insulting and just flat out wrong.

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this.

Everyone complains about how poor he plays in the playoffs, when in reality he didn't. two years ago his post season numbers were better then his regular seasons were, and his post season average isn't too bad. Ya he let in some softies, but he was also solid for us too

No one here has said that he played "poor". That said, he didn't play as a clutch goalie in the playoffs either. That's the point. People worship Jimmy as if he's the best thing out there, however his playoff numbers performance haven't been extraordinary. It's been good. But nothing more. Not YET at least. He's not a Hart Trophy winning Dominik Hasek. But that's not to say that he won't become one either.. The point is, he has a long way to go. Let's give him time instead of jumping to conclusions that he's the best thing ever. You have to take it year by year, he's still a young guy and he's improving each season and gaining more playoff experience as we go.

Edited by kickazz

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Goalies.

...Jimmy's a decent goalie. He doesn't win you games. He doesn't lose you games. He's about to be way overpaid for such a goalie. But, whatever I guess. He's here for the next seven years. He's decent. At age 29, he's probably got at least 5 more decent seasons in him. Petr Mrazek (21) is a prospect I personally really like, and he should at least make for a decent backup (if not someone who pushes Jimmy). Gus is here for one more season, then probably replaced by him. I guess we're set at goalie for the foreseeable future as well. McCollum is at least worth mentioning as potentially being a decent third goalie.

As with others, you lost me here. Jimmy is an excellent goalie who, with the exception of his 2011-2012 season (the dreaded sophomore slump) has had a case for team MVP every season he has been the starter. If you hadn't noticed, he carried the team to the playoffs in his rookie season, kept the team out of the dumpster in the first half of 2011-2012, and, with the exception of a few stinkers the likes of which every goalie on earth has from time to time, has played wonderfully this season.

GOOD LORD. I said I think Jimmy is decent, and we're set with him. You think Jimmy is some level of good, and we're set with him. Either way, we're all in agreement that we're set with him. Leave the semantics alone. Talk about something more relevant.

Statistics are statistics. There are no semantics where statistics are involved.

Ally likes this

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God these threads always blow. Makes me miss the dislike button or whatever it was even more...

I also like how Schultz, Parise and Suter had to be thrown in there too.

Complete waste of this forums bandwith, IMO.

Edited by DSM

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No one here has said that he played "poor". That said, he didn't play as a clutch goalie in the playoffs either. That's the point.

Sure, I guess his .923 in the 2010-2011 playoffs wasn't good enough for you. For the record, that was the third-best of any goalie who made it out of the first round, and the #2 (Roloson) beat him by .001.

Wingsfan72 and SaCkaveli20 like this

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Sure, I guess his .923 in the 2010-2011 playoffs wasn't good enough for you. For the record, that was the third-best of any goalie who made it out of the first round, and the #2 (Roloson) beat him by .001.

And in reality, how is Holland going to get a better starting goaltender without taking a huge risk or overpaying with valuable assets to get one in a trade?

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I guess we should rename this thread "Is Jimmy Howard Decent?" Oh, wait...

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