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Rebuilding Thoughts..


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#41 kickazz

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:33 PM

 

Sure, I guess his .923 in the 2010-2011 playoffs wasn't good enough for you. For the record, that was the third-best of any goalie who made it out of the first round, and the #2 (Roloson) beat him by .001.

Re-read my post instead of taking things out of context buddy. I actually said Howard play good. My EXACT words. Nice try :)

 

Here's my post again incase ya forgot ur spectacles the first time.

 

"No one here has said that he played "poor". That said, he didn't play as a clutch goalie in the playoffs either. That's the point. People worship Jimmy as if he's the best thing out there, however his playoff numbers performance haven't been extraordinary. It's been good. But nothing more. Not YET at least. He's not a Hart Trophy winner* Dominik Hasek. But that's not to say that he won't become one either.. The point is, he has a long way to go. Let's give him time instead of jumping to conclusions that he's the best thing ever. You have to take it year by year, he's still a young guy and he's improving each season and gaining more playoff experience as we go."

 

I said he wasn't clutch. I didn't say he was bad. Clutch vs. Bad. Two different adjectives from dictionary.com. Jonathon Quick was clutch in the post season. Howard was good in the post season. That's the difference.

 

Right now Howard is clutch.

 

Besides, you're giving me one playoff seasons numbers. Let's look at last year, 2.64 GAA and .888 SV%? I'm not going to blindly hold that against him because I actually like Howard. At the same time I'm not going to absolutely adore him for having 1 good playoff year either because we have yet to win a cup with him and see consistency in the playoffs. It's too early to judge him and call him elite as some people are.


Edited by kickazz, 25 April 2013 - 05:44 PM.


#42 marcaractac

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:40 PM

the fact that you think Jimmy is not a good goalie and cannot win us games makes me sick. and to say franzen is a bottom 6 player is quite a stretch, I've never seen a bottom 6 30 goal scorer, just saying

 

This. Without Jimmy, this team is playing for a top draft pick, not the playoffs. He has stolen numerous games this season while the team was hurt, changing daily, and trying to regain their identity.

 

But in all honesty I love the Jimmy hate. Because it continues to make people look like fools lol.



#43 The Axe

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:39 PM

Howard - SET
Mrazek - SET

Dekeyser - SET
Kind - SET
Smith - SET
Ericsson - SET
Lashoff - SET
Sproul - SET
Ouelette - SET
Almquist - SET

Tatar - SET
Emmerton - SET
Nyquist - SET
Andersson - SET
Sheahan - SET
Frk - SET
Nestrosil - SET


That's our core to build around. If I'm Holland, the guys I left out should all be considered when talking trades.

#44 Son of a Wing

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:03 PM

Howard - SET
Mrazek - SET

Dekeyser - SET
Kind - SET
Smith - SET
Ericsson - SET
Lashoff - SET
Sproul - SET
Ouelette - SET
Almquist - SET

Tatar - SET
Emmerton - SET
Nyquist - SET
Andersson - SET
Sheahan - SET
Frk - SET
Nestrosil - SET


That's our core to build around. If I'm Holland, the guys I left out should all be considered when talking trades.

 

Nestrasil over Jurco? Really?


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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#45 The Axe

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:10 PM

 
Nestrasil over Jurco? Really?


Jurco? Is he good? I'm willing to add him and SET him if you'll vouch for him.

I'm NOT willing to add Jarnkrok and his 156 lbs. That's silly to even discuss a guy who's that tiny.

#46 AtomicPunk

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:14 PM

Howard - SET
Mrazek - SET

Dekeyser - SET
Kind - SET
Smith - SET
Ericsson - SET
Lashoff - SET
Sproul - SET
Ouelette - SET
Almquist - SET

Tatar - SET
Emmerton - SET
Nyquist - SET
Andersson - SET
Sheahan - SET
Frk - SET
Nestrosil - SET


That's our core to build around. If I'm Holland, the guys I left out should all be considered when talking trades.

 

I mean no offense, but I feel a little uneasy with that core. 30-40% of them have not played an NHL game, much less posted any significant stats in the bigs.


Edited by AtomicPunk, 25 April 2013 - 08:15 PM.

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#47 The Axe

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:37 PM


Howard - SET
Mrazek - SET

Dekeyser - SET
Kind - SET
Smith - SET
Ericsson - SET
Lashoff - SET
Sproul - SET
Ouelette - SET
Almquist - SET

Tatar - SET
Emmerton - SET
Nyquist - SET
Andersson - SET
Sheahan - SET
Frk - SET
Nestrosil - SET


That's our core to build around. If I'm Holland, the guys I left out should all be considered when talking trades.

 
I mean no offense, but I feel a little uneasy with that core. 30-40% of them have not played an NHL game, much less posted any significant stats in the bigs.



I know. I feel uneasy about it too. But I'm sort of taking a worst case scenario approach to show that our core is pretty strong when you strip away the old guard:

Dats,, Z, Flip, Franzen, Kronwall, Quincey, Colo, Sammy, Bert, Clearly, White, Gustavsson, Too too, Abdelkader.

Dats and Z are really the only 2 guys that we will have trouble replacing.

#48 Son of a Wing

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:52 PM

Jurco? Is he good? I'm willing to add him and SET him if you'll vouch for him.

I'm NOT willing to add Jarnkrok and his 156 lbs. That's silly to even discuss a guy who's that tiny.

 

I can't tell if you're trolling me or being serious...

 

Jurco is one of our top 5 forward prospects...Nestrasil....well he can't seem to stick in the AHL.

 

Jarnkrok is currently 6'0 176lbs. As listed on the Griffins site who would have been the most recent to take those measurements.


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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#49 FireCaptain

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:15 PM

Brett Hull & Luc Robitaille - 2001-02 Wings.. hahaha. I <3 that team.

 

 

the fact that you think Jimmy is not a good goalie and cannot win us games makes me sick. and to say franzen is a bottom 6 player is quite a stretch, I've never seen a bottom 6 30 goal scorer, just saying


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#50 mackel

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:55 PM

I've seen a lot of Nestrasil in junior, when he played with the PEI Rocket. From what I saw I highly doubt he sees the NHL, and if so it'll be with a different team a few years from now.

He's a lazy player who has skill, but has no work ethic at all. Unless that changes in a hurry he's a bust.

#51 The Axe

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:56 AM

 
I can't tell if you're trolling me or being serious...
 
Jurco is one of our top 5 forward prospects...Nestrasil....well he can't seem to stick in the AHL.
 
Jarnkrok is currently 6'0 176lbs. As listed on the Griffins site who would have been the most recent to take those measurements.


Alright, I will take your word for it.

Jurco is a SET.

Nestrasil was getting a lot of hype a year ago. What happened?

#52 Buppy

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:42 AM

...
That's our core to build around. If I'm Holland, the guys I left out should all be considered when talking trades.

No it isn't. Other than Howard, we don't yet have anyone to build around. We're not yet at the "build" stage. We're still at Home Depot shopping for material. We can hope that some of the lumber we have already will develop into a foundation, but more likely we'll still have to buy one.

 

When talking rebuild, we need to consider who we'll be drafting in the next few years. Consider that whomever we draft this year (assuming we end up picking in the 14-17 range) will likely instantly be one of our (if not the) top prospects. Big difference between a 15th overall and 31-33 (which is where we've averaged in recent years). Bigger difference if we decline further and get a top-10.



#53 DSM

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:37 PM

Howard - SET
Mrazek - SET

Dekeyser - SET
Kind - SET
Smith - SET
Ericsson - SET
Lashoff - SET
Sproul - SET
Ouelette - SET
Almquist - SET

Tatar - SET
Emmerton - SET
Nyquist - SET
Andersson - SET
Sheahan - SET
Frk - SET
Nestrosil - SET


That's our core to build around. If I'm Holland, the guys I left out should all be considered when talking trades.

 
I'd like to see what Frk and Nestrasil can do in full AHL seasons before labeling them as future core players. Frk is still a question mark. His production this season is decieving because he played on a good team on Nathan MacKinnon's line. Nestasil can put up points in the ECHL, but hasn't been able to translate it to the AHL. He'll have an even tougher time next season as the Griffins already have a pretty well established bottom 6, and he'll have to compete with Jurco, Sheahan, Ferraro and whatever established veteran AHL guy(s) that Griffins have along with Jarnkrok and Pulkkinen for top 6 minutes. Plus, the clock is ticking. Nestrasil has already burned 2 years of his 3 year entry level deal and hasn't even spent half a season at the AHL level yet. If he doesn't make a drastic turn-around next season, he won't be resigned. At this point, Ferraro, Parkes, Callahan and Aubry should be considered future core material WAY before Nestrasil.
 
As far as Jurco goes, he needs to produce much better at the AHL level before being considered core material. Considering all of the hype around him going into this season, 28pts at the AHL level is a bit of a let down.
 
If you have Emmerton in your core list (which I am most certainly not against), you should probably also include Ferraro. Ferraro already looks like he will end up being a slightly better and more physical version of Emmerton, while having the same versatility. He's also scored one less goal (33) in 128 AHL games, than Emmerton did (34) in 217 AHL games.
 
As far as "players being considered when talking trades" goes, I doubt Holland will be discussing many trades this summer, if any. It now appears that the Wings will most likely be starting next season with 11 players between the ages of 22 and 27 on their 23 man roster: Abdelkader, Andersson, Brunner, DeKeyser, Emmerton, Helm, Kindl, Lashoff, Nyquist, Smith and Tatar. All of these players showed improved play this season (except Helm for reasons out of his control) and still have varying degrees of untapped upside to reach. If three or four of these guys show further improvement next season, it will be a more beneficial and affordable addition than dumping off assets to overpay for a trade. Besides, none of the players that you didn't list will bring Holland any decent return without him including a player (or players) from your list of "core" guys or good draft picks.

Edited by DSM, 26 April 2013 - 01:53 PM.


#54 Motown4013

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

Alright, I will take your word for it.

Jurco is a SET.

Nestrasil was getting a lot of hype a year ago. What happened?

How can you write a post about prospects that should NOT be discussed for trades and have someone mention Jurco...one of our top guys and you add him to the list? If you dont know who Jurco is, I'm not sure your list will be credible. Nestrasil is not a SET....wanna take my word for it?


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#55 DSM

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

How can you write a post about prospects that should NOT be discussed for trades and have someone mention Jurco...one of our top guys and you add him to the list? If you dont know who Jurco is, I'm not sure your list will be credible. Nestrasil is not a SET....wanna take my word for it?

 

Nestrasil is going to have to pull a Tomas Kopecky next season to get any sort of consideration for a spot on the big club.



#56 ogreslayer

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:19 PM

 

Nestrasil is going to have to pull a Tomas Kopecky next season to get any sort of consideration for a spot on the big club.

 

You mean he has to cozy up to & become best buds with a much more talented player?



#57 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

No it isn't. Other than Howard, we don't yet have anyone to build around. We're not yet at the "build" stage. We're still at Home Depot shopping for material. We can hope that some of the lumber we have already will develop into a foundation, but more likely we'll still have to buy one.

 

When talking rebuild, we need to consider who we'll be drafting in the next few years. Consider that whomever we draft this year (assuming we end up picking in the 14-17 range) will likely instantly be one of our (if not the) top prospects. Big difference between a 15th overall and 31-33 (which is where we've averaged in recent years). Bigger difference if we decline further and get a top-10.

What? Howard's the only one to build around?  Is this forced pessimism? Zetterberg, Kronwall..both here for a long time. We saw some great young talent this year. A young defense that forced white and colaiacovo out of the line up. Nyquist, andersson and Tatar all demanding full time slots. Yes, we need pieces, but I'm constantly surprised that people look at this year and see such a dark future. Are we watching the same games? A year like this is the price you pay for transition, but there has been a steady changing of the guard throughout the season.



#58 Buppy

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:49 PM

What? Howard's the only one to build around?  Is this forced pessimism? Zetterberg, Kronwall..both here for a long time. We saw some great young talent this year. A young defense that forced white and colaiacovo out of the line up. Nyquist, andersson and Tatar all demanding full time slots. Yes, we need pieces, but I'm constantly surprised that people look at this year and see such a dark future. Are we watching the same games? A year like this is the price you pay for transition, but there has been a steady changing of the guard throughout the season.

I can understand how you came to that conclusion, but it's not pessimism at all, nor do I think the future is particularly dark. I just don't think the real building is going to start for a few years yet. I figure we'll likely stay around our current level for another 1-3 years (depending on Datsyuk), adding a few more pieces along the way.

 

By that time, Datsyuk will probably be gone, Hank, Kronwall, and Franzen will be mid-30s. The kids so far look like good pieces to build with, but as yet no one has emerged as someone to build around. It's possible some may do so. Also possible that enough of them will turn out "good" that we'll be able to compete will depth instead of star power. Much more likely though is that we will need some to become real stars, and we probably haven't drafted them yet.

 

I'm hopeful that we can find our future stars without dropping all the way to the basement, perhaps without even missing the playoffs, but historically speaking it's not very likely. The good news, though, is that once we find those stars, all the other pieces we have should have some experience or be ready to step in to the lineup. Plus we should still have plenty of veteran leadership to help the kids grow. The rise, once it starts, should be quick. Realistically I think 5-6 years is about the minimum we should expect before we're getting back to the top. If anything, I'm probably being optimistic in thinking Howie will have that kind of longevity.



#59 Ally

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:02 PM

I just...MUST we start a new thread every week with a player by player breakdown of who we should keep? I am getting this constant déjà vu every time I read these.
Jimmy Howard steals games for us on a regular basis. If we had a better team in front of him he would be a Vezina contender in my opinion.
The only other point that bugs me a lot is Eaves. Is he our best player? No, but he's been out for a long time and if these last few games are any indication of what he's capable of then I think he could have a long term place with the Wings.

 
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#60 The Axe

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:52 PM

 
I'd like to see what Frk and Nestrasil can do in full AHL seasons before labeling them as future core players. Frk is still a question mark. His production this season is decieving because he played on a good team on Nathan MacKinnon's line. Nestasil can put up points in the ECHL, but hasn't been able to translate it to the AHL. He'll have an even tougher time next season as the Griffins already have a pretty well established bottom 6, and he'll have to compete with Jurco, Sheahan, Ferraro and whatever established veteran AHL guy(s) that Griffins have along with Jarnkrok and Pulkkinen for top 6 minutes. Plus, the clock is ticking. Nestrasil has already burned 2 years of his 3 year entry level deal and hasn't even spent half a season at the AHL level yet. If he doesn't make a drastic turn-around next season, he won't be resigned. At this point, Ferraro, Parkes, Callahan and Aubry should be considered future core material WAY before Nestrasil.
 
As far as Jurco goes, he needs to produce much better at the AHL level before being considered core material. Considering all of the hype around him going into this season, 28pts at the AHL level is a bit of a let down.
 
If you have Emmerton in your core list (which I am most certainly not against), you should probably also include Ferraro. Ferraro already looks like he will end up being a slightly better and more physical version of Emmerton, while having the same versatility. He's also scored one less goal (33) in 128 AHL games, than Emmerton did (34) in 217 AHL games.
 
As far as "players being considered when talking trades" goes, I doubt Holland will be discussing many trades this summer, if any. It now appears that the Wings will most likely be starting next season with 11 players between the ages of 22 and 27 on their 23 man roster: Abdelkader, Andersson, Brunner, DeKeyser, Emmerton, Helm, Kindl, Lashoff, Nyquist, Smith and Tatar. All of these players showed improved play this season (except Helm for reasons out of his control) and still have varying degrees of untapped upside to reach. If three or four of these guys show further improvement next season, it will be a more beneficial and affordable addition than dumping off assets to overpay for a trade. Besides, none of the players that you didn't list will bring Holland any decent return without him including a player (or players) from your list of "core" guys or good draft picks.


That's a good point. Ferraro should be in there. I'm going to add him as a SET.





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