Pasha's Legacy

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

If he hits the 15 year minimum requirement, why wouldn't he?

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are great players, but they're not in the same league as any of the players currently retired by the Wings.

Red Kelly is.

[Guest irishock]

19 and 5 are the only two going to the rafters from this era. 91 is not going up. If 13 and 40 want to go up they are going to have to bring at least two or more cups home to solidify their legacies outside of all the talented players they played with early in their careers, including 91.

This is probably true but I wish the next generation of Wings owners would do the right thing and put 13, 40 and 91 up there.

[kipwinger 8,520]

To go up in the rafters at the Joe, you have to have been an otherworldly talent AND been a team leader for basically an entire career. Dats has the talent but not the leadership, Zetterberg is vice versa. It takes a lot to get retired at the Joe, and I'm pretty glad about that. I don't like the idea of retiring a new number every five years.

[Guest The Axe]

To go up in the rafters at the Joe, you have to have been an otherworldly talent AND been a team leader for basically an entire career. Dats has the talent but not the leadership, Zetterberg is vice versa. It takes a lot to get retired at the Joe, and I'm pretty glad about that. I don't like the idea of retiring a new number every five years.

I kinda like retiring jerseys for a period. 50 years would be a good number.

[Number19 159]

If it was up to me I'd put Kelly, Fedorov, Pavel, and Shanahan up there. Yes Shanny wasn't here all that long. Boo hoo. We don't win a cup without him and his leadership was almost on par with Stevie. It's arguable he meant as much as Stevie and Nick to this team while he was here (especially with all the injuries Stevie dealt with). Z probably too when it's all said and done (has to make the hall of fame). Not sure on Osgood, Aurie, or Vladdy. No to Chelios or any of the role players (Holmer, Drapes, etc).

Edited May 1, 2013 by Number19

[Number19 159]

To go up in the rafters at the Joe, you have to have been an otherworldly talent AND been a team leader for basically an entire career. Dats has the talent but not the leadership, Zetterberg is vice versa. It takes a lot to get retired at the Joe, and I'm pretty glad about that. I don't like the idea of retiring a new number every five years.

From watching Dats bust his ass every day the past decade I'd say he has leadership. Lots of times he's the only one who gives a damn out there. Leadership isn't only speaking english well.

[Number19 159]

I'm not going to argue the value of Datsyuk in regards to whether or not his jersey should be retired. The more interesting argument will be whether or not Datsyuk and Zetterberg are Hall of Famers in the end, and what the new definition of a Hall of Fame career is in the 21st century. Players don't put up the kind of obscene numbers as they did in the 80s, 90s, or early 2000s. The definition of what makes an elite player in the NHL has changed.

Assuming both players play to the extent of their ability until they can play no longer, lets say another 6 years or so, would we consider both Pavel and Hank Hall of Fame caliber? Neither will have lead the league in scoring. In all likelihood, neither will have lead to an incredible number of Cups as a primary player. In their time they will have been among, but never the best. On top of that, if Pavel leaves for the KHL after this contract, how does that effect his chances? We all recognize he is a once-in-a-lifetime talent as far as skill set goes, but how much is enough these days?

Are Datsyuk and Zetterberg's contributions to the sport in the end significant enough to get in when you consider players like Bure, Oates, and Mark Howe taking so long to get in, and players like Fedorov and Lindros still on the outside looking in?

Fedorov is and always has been a lock. Lindros is probably getting this year. Pavs is also getting in, the two lockouts have hurt his point totals but the hardware and production is there (two-way play is a huge plus). Z needs to snag a selke, continue putting up top 20 point totals and elite playoff production, and snag another allstar team. One thing Z really has going for him is he is number 1 in points in the playoffs since the 05 lockout. If he continues to play until his late 30s he stacks up well with players like Joe Nieuwendyk.

[Guest Playmaker]

Retiring a number is only for legendary greatness. While I love Pavel Datsyuk and his magical moves, he just does not put up the numbers, nor has he played long enough to be considered in that category. If he stays another five years...maybe. I think it also has to do with off the ice things. I don't think any of the aforementioned players really became entrenched in the Detroit community. I think that contributes to it as well. I loved Fedorov in his day as well, but his career was also too short in Detroit to be considered. I think it cheapens the whole retiring of a number when too many are up there.

[Number19 159]

Retiring a number is only for legendary greatness. While I love Pavel Datsyuk and his magical moves, he just does not put up the numbers, nor has he played long enough to be considered in that category. If he stays another five years...maybe. I think it also has to do with off the ice things. I don't think any of the aforementioned players really became entrenched in the Detroit community. I think that contributes to it as well. I loved Fedorov in his day as well, but his career was also too short in Detroit to be considered. I think it cheapens the whole retiring of a number when too many are up there.

900+ games (1000 if you count playoffs) is too short? And what will compling a couple more ppg or less seasons do to make Pavel more worthy in your mind? We know what type of player he is and what he brings, 5 years of dimishing hockey won't change that. Also remember he might've had his peak year taken away in 05. Abel didn't play any where close to the amount of games these two have. Both have played more than Ted as well.

Actually Pav has played 83 less games than Lindsey. By next year it wil be close. My mistake.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Number19

[toby91_ca 620]

players like Fedorov and Lindros still on the outside looking in?

Fedorov isn't eligible until 2015.

Lindros definitely deserves to be there and I'm sure he'll get in soon enough. If it weren't for injuries, he might be considered up there with the all time greats. Injuries didn't keep others from getting in. With Lindros, I always compare to Neely, Lindros deserves to be there much more than Neely as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest Playmaker]

900+ games (1000 if you count playoffs) is too short? And what will compling a couple more ppg or less seasons do to make Pavel more worthy in your mind? We know what type of player he is and what he brings, 5 years of dimishing hockey won't change that. Also remember he might've had his peak year taken away in 05. Abel didn't play any where close to the amount of games these two have. Both have played more than Ted as well.

Actually Pav has played 83 less games than Lindsey. By next year it wil be close. My mistake.

The seasons were shorter back then.

In any event, I didn't say Dastyuk wasn't a good player. He's had some terrific seasons. Sucks that he got caught in both lockouts, but so have a lot of players. I think his talent is right up there, but his HOF status is tenuous at best. He basically left Detroit once and only came back after his team folded. A great player, but not worthy of having his number retired.

[martinezsvsu 240]

feds and dats are the most talented wings of all time. tell your kids that. but to have your jersey retired you should be a hall of fame player without question

[Itchin' to go 16]

I agree that 91 and 13 were the most amazing, talented, and dominating players I've ever seen in Winged wheel. That said I dont think of them the same way I do 19 or 5. If Dats stays 5 more years I may rethink that.

[Ally 448]

I like that the Wings don't retire a lot of numbers so I'd say no to retiring #13 but there is no question in my mind that he should be in the Hall of Fame one day.

When it comes to the HOF I don't think it should just be a matter of numbers. There has to be room for players who were extraordinary in a way that numbers just can't reflect.

[Richdg 267]

It is way to early to discuss Datsyuk in the rafters. He needs another STRONG 5 years to be in that catagory. Z will never be in that catagory. Reading some of the posts on here, you guys show your age. There are a bunch of guys equal or greater than datsyuk and Z that are not in the HOF or have their numbers retired. To be considered at that level, you need to be a once in a generation talent, and not sure either of them are. we are talking about a fine line here. What is the difference between being very good vs great vs once in a generation talent? Some of us are old enough to remember seeing Howe play, grew up on The Great One, watched Super Mario. No the NHL isn't the same as when those guys played. But would datsyuk and Z dominate in the other eras? not sure they would. But again, in 5 years after each puts up another 300 points, maybe we can have this conversation.

[Guest The Axe]

It is way to early to discuss Datsyuk in the rafters. He needs another STRONG 5 years to be in that catagory. Z will never be in that catagory. Reading some of the posts on here, you guys show your age. There are a bunch of guys equal or greater than datsyuk and Z that are not in the HOF or have their numbers retired. To be considered at that level, you need to be a once in a generation talent, and not sure either of them are. we are talking about a fine line here. What is the difference between being very good vs great vs once in a generation talent? Some of us are old enough to remember seeing Howe play, grew up on The Great One, watched Super Mario. No the NHL isn't the same as when those guys played. But would datsyuk and Z dominate in the other eras? not sure they would. But again, in 5 years after each puts up another 300 points, maybe we can have this conversation.

I'm sorry, but you derailed your argument by excluding Pavel from the one in a generation category. Fedorov is the most talented all around hockey player of all time, but Pavel Datsyuk is the craftiest player that has ever touched a hockey puck. His highlite reel speaks for itself. Guys like Zetterberg and Iginla are great players, but I'd agree with you that they are not magical. Datsyuk does things on a regular basis that make you put both hands on your head, open your eyes wide, and smile in disbelief. He is a once in a lifetime player.

[Kira 451]

I would hope that we have a couple more years at the very least to let Pasha seal his reputation and career. If I know him, he'll probably push every thought of retiring his jersey aside...he cares more about the team than he does himself when it comes to achievements. Does his number belong in the rafters? I'm biased - I say yes. But let's see what happens between now and the time he does finally leave (which I hope is not for a long while yet).

[Richdg 267]

I'm sorry, but you derailed your argument by excluding Pavel from the one in a generation category. Fedorov is the most talented all around hockey player of all time, but Pavel Datsyuk is the craftiest player that has ever touched a hockey puck. His highlite reel speaks for itself. Guys like Zetterberg and Iginla are great players, but I'd agree with you that they are not magical. Datsyuk does things on a regular basis that make you put both hands on your head, open your eyes wide, and smile in disbelief. He is a once in a lifetime player.

You can disagree if you want, which is fine. But there ae many players would consider better than Datsyuk and Z. Go back to the basics. What is the primary goal in hockey? To win. How do you do that? Score goals. Datsyuk has only broken the 30 goal per year mark 3 times, out of 11 seasons. he isn't even a point per game guy for his career. Really close yes. But when you start talking once in a generation players, I think of guys tha can score 120+ points per season. Guys like Gretzky averaged for his career 2 points per game! Super Mario was almost 2 points per game, and if not for cancer would have blown The Great One away for career numbers. Stevie had 6 seasons where he went over 100 points, Datsyuk has none. His career high was/is 97.

As a forward you are measured on points, wins and Cups. On 2 of those 3 Datsyuk has work to do. Needs more points and more Cups. At this point in his career, not sure he is going to get those.

[Number19 159]

You can disagree if you want, which is fine. But there ae many players would consider better than Datsyuk and Z. Go back to the basics. What is the primary goal in hockey? To win. How do you do that? Score goals. Datsyuk has only broken the 30 goal per year mark 3 times, out of 11 seasons. he isn't even a point per game guy for his career. Really close yes. But when you start talking once in a generation players, I think of guys tha can score 120+ points per season. Guys like Gretzky averaged for his career 2 points per game! Super Mario was almost 2 points per game, and if not for cancer would have blown The Great One away for career numbers. Stevie had 6 seasons where he went over 100 points, Datsyuk has none. His career high was/is 97.

As a forward you are measured on points, wins and Cups. On 2 of those 3 Datsyuk has work to do. Needs more points and more Cups. At this point in his career, not sure he is going to get those.

All of those guys played in higher scoring eras. I'm not saying Pav would've been close to their numbers in that era (he wouldn't have but those are 3 of the top players of all time depending on where you put Yzerman) but it's an unfair comparsion. Pav has played the majority of his career in dead puck era or dead puck era-lite. The couple seasons where scoring was closer to the level of the 80s and early 90s Pavs put up 97 point seasons. Adjusted stats on Hockey Reference puts that at a 105 and 100 point pace. By comparsion Yzerman's astronomical season of 155 points is at an adjusted 128 points. Another thing to consider is Dats plays elite defense. As good as if not better defense than all 3 of them (at least the Stevie of the 80s). I can't accurately rate Gretz or Mario because I didn't see them play day in and day out but I've never heard people mistake them as defensive workhorses. Maybe if Pavel didn't spend so much of his energy playing a two-way game he'd put up higher offensive totals.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Number19

[Number19 159]

nevermind this. can't figure out how to delete posts.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Number19

[Nev 1,085]

It is way to early to discuss Datsyuk in the rafters. He needs another STRONG 5 years to be in that catagory. Z will never be in that catagory. Reading some of the posts on here, you guys show your age. There are a bunch of guys equal or greater than datsyuk and Z that are not in the HOF or have their numbers retired. To be considered at that level, you need to be a once in a generation talent, and not sure either of them are. we are talking about a fine line here. What is the difference between being very good vs great vs once in a generation talent? Some of us are old enough to remember seeing Howe play, grew up on The Great One, watched Super Mario. No the NHL isn't the same as when those guys played. But would datsyuk and Z dominate in the other eras? not sure they would. But again, in 5 years after each puts up another 300 points, maybe we can have this conversation.

Have you ever watched hockey from the 80s? I can't even begin to imagine the carnage that Pav would cause with the level of goaltending and defence that the likes of Gretzky, Mario and Yzerman got to plunder.

[Richdg 267]

Have you ever watched hockey from the 80s? I can't even begin to imagine the carnage that Pav would cause with the level of goaltending and defence that the likes of Gretzky, Mario and Yzerman got to plunder.

Yes, love hockey from the 80's points and fights eveywhere! Notice how when the NHL tried to get rid of the later, the former also declined? Why is that I wonder?

As for other things. Gretzky and mario where great defensive players. They understood all to well, that the best defense is a great offense. The other team can't score when you have the puck and are scoring on them. Which is what they did. Now would Datsyuk have more points? yes. but also keep in mind he isn't a natural goal scorer. he is a setup guy. The 3 I mentioned and many others were goal scorers. Heck is datsyuk as good as LeFluer was? No. Hull? No. I really haven't even touched on the guys from the 60's-before my time. But Bossey, Trottier, Dionne, Howe, Esposito, etc... Were all better than datsyuk. Sorry if I misspelled some names.

Now that does not mean Datsyuk isn't great. But is he even the best playing in his era? As RW fans we are naturally blind and say yes. I am not sure he is. Top 10 yes, but best? No. As for today, he isn't even top 10 anymore. More 25-30 range. But again that happens to all of us with age.

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

Yes, love hockey from the 80's points and fights eveywhere! Notice how when the NHL tried to get rid of the later, the former also declined? Why is that I wonder?

As for other things. Gretzky and mario where great defensive players. They understood all to well, that the best defense is a great offense. The other team can't score when you have the puck and are scoring on them. Which is what they did. Now would Datsyuk have more points? yes. but also keep in mind he isn't a natural goal scorer. he is a setup guy. The 3 I mentioned and many others were goal scorers. Heck is datsyuk as good as LeFluer was? No. Hull? No. I really haven't even touched on the guys from the 60's-before my time. But Bossey, Trottier, Dionne, Howe, Esposito, etc... Were all better than datsyuk. Sorry if I misspelled some names.

Now that does not mean Datsyuk isn't great. But is he even the best playing in his era? As RW fans we are naturally blind and say yes. I am not sure he is. Top 10 yes, but best? No. As for today, he isn't even top 10 anymore. More 25-30 range. But again that happens to all of us with age.

But they could score when those 'great defensive players' who were too busy scoring, left the ice. Not to mention, scoring a tonne of goals doesn't mean you're good defensively it just means you can score. So moot point really. And if you want to make a point of it, Dats is put on the ice to stop people from scoring, by playing in both their end and his own.

You can disagree if you want, which is fine. But there ae many players would consider better than Datsyuk and Z. Go back to the basics. What is the primary goal in hockey? To win. How do you do that? Score goals. Datsyuk has only broken the 30 goal per year mark 3 times, out of 11 seasons. he isn't even a point per game guy for his career. Really close yes. But when you start talking once in a generation players, I think of guys tha can score 120+ points per season. Guys like Gretzky averaged for his career 2 points per game! Super Mario was almost 2 points per game, and if not for cancer would have blown The Great One away for career numbers. Stevie had 6 seasons where he went over 100 points, Datsyuk has none. His career high was/is 97.

As a forward you are measured on points, wins and Cups. On 2 of those 3 Datsyuk has work to do. Needs more points and more Cups. At this point in his career, not sure he is going to get those.

And compared to what Dats does, they're boring as ****. Axe wasn't disagreeing, he was simply pointing out that Dats IS a once in a lifetime player, which was your criteria before you changed and started talking about points and scoring.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Wing Across The Pond

[joshy207 156]

Lest we forget the great Gordie Howe left Detroit because he wanted more money too?

Where did you hear that? Gordie was basically forced to retire after the 1970-71 season. He was given a front-office "job" where he basically had nothing to do. In 1973, when Houston of the WHA wanted to sign his sons, his wife talked to them about signing Gordie, too, who wanted to play and felt he still could. (Obviously, he was right!!) It wasn't a money issue, the Wings didn't even want him playing.

[13dangledangle 958]

If Datsyuk gets his jersey retired, then Fedorov is a no brainer. Because we wouldn't be talking about 22 straight years, or even anywhere close to that if not for Fedorov...we also wouldn't be talking 3 Cups in 6 years without Fedorov...

I know this isn't a debate over Feds/Dats, but I love how folks (and no offense to the OP) bend over backwards to say how much Dats deserves his jersey in the rafters and its ok for him to want to go play somewhere he wants to enjoy his life outside of hockey, yet when it comes to Fedorov and how he is at or near the top of every statistical category for the Red Wings, has won a Hart Trophy and also wanted to go play somewhere he would enjoy his life outside of hockey better, he gets boo'd and shunned and doesn't deserve the same recognition....

I agree with your assessment of Datsyuk, don't get me wrong. I say put them both in the rafters, they have both earned it...but you cannot put Dats up without Feds...

Yes you really can. They are in no way the same person. I LOVE Fedorov and his entire era, however Feds later in his career seemed to put his rockstar status above his own team at times. Datsyuk is not going to sit out for part of a season and watch on the sidelines waiting for a paycheck. Does Feds belong in the rafters? I think so but as admirable as Pavs? No way...