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Pasha's Legacy


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#21 b.shanafan14

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:45 PM

I'm not going to argue the value of Datsyuk in regards to whether or not his jersey should be retired. The more interesting argument will be whether or not Datsyuk and Zetterberg are Hall of Famers in the end, and what the new definition of a Hall of Fame career is in the 21st century. Players don't put up the kind of obscene numbers as they did in the 80s, 90s, or early 2000s. The definition of what makes an elite player in the NHL has changed.

 

Assuming both players play to the extent of their ability until they can play no longer, lets say another 6 years or so, would we consider both Pavel and Hank Hall of Fame caliber? Neither will have lead the league in scoring. In all likelihood, neither will have lead to an incredible number of Cups as a primary player. In their time they will have been among, but never the best. On top of that, if Pavel leaves for the KHL after this contract, how does that effect his chances? We all recognize he is a once-in-a-lifetime talent as far as skill set goes, but how much is enough these days?

 

Are Datsyuk and Zetterberg's contributions to the sport in the end significant enough to get in when you consider players like Bure, Oates, and Mark Howe taking so long to get in, and players like Fedorov and Lindros still on the outside looking in?



#22 Euro_Twins

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

 

But come on, how cool would that be lol.

 

I also want to say that I think if 13 gets retired, that doesn't mean 40 should as well.  I think 13 deserves it more than 40.

 

but 40 is the cap't



#23 Nev

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:31 PM

I'm not going to argue the value of Datsyuk in regards to whether or not his jersey should be retired. The more interesting argument will be whether or not Datsyuk and Zetterberg are Hall of Famers in the end, and what the new definition of a Hall of Fame career is in the 21st century. Players don't put up the kind of obscene numbers as they did in the 80s, 90s, or early 2000s. The definition of what makes an elite player in the NHL has changed.

 

Assuming both players play to the extent of their ability until they can play no longer, lets say another 6 years or so, would we consider both Pavel and Hank Hall of Fame caliber? Neither will have lead the league in scoring. In all likelihood, neither will have lead to an incredible number of Cups as a primary player. In their time they will have been among, but never the best. On top of that, if Pavel leaves for the KHL after this contract, how does that effect his chances? We all recognize he is a once-in-a-lifetime talent as far as skill set goes, but how much is enough these days?

 

Are Datsyuk and Zetterberg's contributions to the sport in the end significant enough to get in when you consider players like Bure, Oates, and Mark Howe taking so long to get in, and players like Fedorov and Lindros still on the outside looking in?

 

Its an interesting discussion - I think right now Pav has a HOF resume, Hank not so much.  Both are late bloomers, both played in a lower scoring era, and both have lost 1.5 seasons to Bettman, so they're not going to put up huge totals.  Pav however has 7 trophies to Z's 1 and 2 cups to 1, as well as his unique, stand-out talent.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#24 GMRwings1983

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM

Why would Datsyuk get his number retired, but Red Kelly and Norm Ullman haven't?


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#25 The Axe

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

Why would Datsyuk get his number retired, but Red Kelly and Norm Ullman haven't?


If he hits the 15 year minimum requirement, why wouldn't he?

#26 GMRwings1983

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:55 PM

If he hits the 15 year minimum requirement, why wouldn't he?

 

 

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are great players, but they're not in the same league as any of the players currently retired by the Wings.

 

Red Kelly is.


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#27 irishock

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:00 PM

19 and 5 are the only two going to the rafters from this era. 91 is not going up. If 13 and 40 want to go up they are going to have to bring at least two or more cups home to solidify their legacies outside of all the talented players they played with early in their careers, including 91.

 

This is probably true but I wish the next generation of Wings owners would do the right thing and put 13, 40 and 91 up there.


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#28 kipwinger

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:14 PM

To go up in the rafters at the Joe, you have to have been an otherworldly talent AND been a team leader for basically an entire career.  Dats has the talent but not the leadership, Zetterberg is vice versa.  It takes a lot to get retired at the Joe, and I'm pretty glad about that.  I don't like the idea of retiring a new number every five years. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#29 The Axe

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:23 PM

To go up in the rafters at the Joe, you have to have been an otherworldly talent AND been a team leader for basically an entire career.  Dats has the talent but not the leadership, Zetterberg is vice versa.  It takes a lot to get retired at the Joe, and I'm pretty glad about that.  I don't like the idea of retiring a new number every five years. 


I kinda like retiring jerseys for a period. 50 years would be a good number.

#30 Number19

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:23 AM

If it was up to me I'd put Kelly, Fedorov, Pavel, and Shanahan up there. Yes Shanny wasn't here all that long. Boo hoo. We don't win a cup without him and his leadership was almost on par with Stevie. It's arguable he meant as much as Stevie and Nick to this team while he was here (especially with all the injuries Stevie dealt with). Z probably too when it's all said and done (has to make the hall of fame). Not sure on Osgood, Aurie, or Vladdy. No to Chelios or any of the role players (Holmer, Drapes, etc).
 


Edited by Number19, 01 May 2013 - 10:31 AM.


#31 Number19

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:34 AM

To go up in the rafters at the Joe, you have to have been an otherworldly talent AND been a team leader for basically an entire career.  Dats has the talent but not the leadership, Zetterberg is vice versa.  It takes a lot to get retired at the Joe, and I'm pretty glad about that.  I don't like the idea of retiring a new number every five years. 

From watching Dats bust his ass every day the past decade I'd say he has leadership. Lots of times he's the only one who gives a damn out there. Leadership isn't only speaking english well.



#32 Number19

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:41 AM

I'm not going to argue the value of Datsyuk in regards to whether or not his jersey should be retired. The more interesting argument will be whether or not Datsyuk and Zetterberg are Hall of Famers in the end, and what the new definition of a Hall of Fame career is in the 21st century. Players don't put up the kind of obscene numbers as they did in the 80s, 90s, or early 2000s. The definition of what makes an elite player in the NHL has changed.

 

Assuming both players play to the extent of their ability until they can play no longer, lets say another 6 years or so, would we consider both Pavel and Hank Hall of Fame caliber? Neither will have lead the league in scoring. In all likelihood, neither will have lead to an incredible number of Cups as a primary player. In their time they will have been among, but never the best. On top of that, if Pavel leaves for the KHL after this contract, how does that effect his chances? We all recognize he is a once-in-a-lifetime talent as far as skill set goes, but how much is enough these days?

 

Are Datsyuk and Zetterberg's contributions to the sport in the end significant enough to get in when you consider players like Bure, Oates, and Mark Howe taking so long to get in, and players like Fedorov and Lindros still on the outside looking in?

Fedorov is and always has been a lock. Lindros is probably getting this year. Pavs is also getting in, the two lockouts have hurt his point totals but the hardware and production is there (two-way play is a huge plus). Z needs to snag a selke, continue putting up top 20 point totals and elite playoff production, and snag another allstar team. One thing Z really has going for him is he is number 1 in points in the playoffs since the 05 lockout. If he continues to play until his late 30s he stacks up well with players like Joe Nieuwendyk.



#33 Playmaker

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:59 AM

Retiring a number is only for legendary greatness.  While I love Pavel Datsyuk and his magical moves, he just does not put up the numbers, nor has he played long enough to be considered in that category. If he stays another five years...maybe.  I think it also has to do with off the ice things.  I don't think any of the aforementioned players really became entrenched in the Detroit community.  I think that contributes to it as well. I loved Fedorov in his day as well, but his career was also too short in Detroit to be considered.  I think it cheapens the whole retiring of a number when too many are up there.



#34 Number19

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:04 AM

Retiring a number is only for legendary greatness.  While I love Pavel Datsyuk and his magical moves, he just does not put up the numbers, nor has he played long enough to be considered in that category. If he stays another five years...maybe.  I think it also has to do with off the ice things.  I don't think any of the aforementioned players really became entrenched in the Detroit community.  I think that contributes to it as well. I loved Fedorov in his day as well, but his career was also too short in Detroit to be considered.  I think it cheapens the whole retiring of a number when too many are up there.

900+ games (1000 if you count playoffs) is too short? And what will compling a couple more ppg or less seasons do to make Pavel more worthy in your mind? We know what type of player he is and what he brings, 5 years of dimishing hockey won't change that. Also remember he might've had his peak year taken away in 05. Abel didn't play any where close to the amount of games these two have. Both have played more than Ted as well.

Actually Pav has played 83 less games than Lindsey. By next year it wil be close. My mistake.


Edited by Number19, 01 May 2013 - 12:02 PM.


#35 toby91_ca

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

 players like Fedorov and Lindros still on the outside looking in? 

Fedorov isn't eligible until 2015.

 

Lindros definitely deserves to be there and I'm sure he'll get in soon enough.  If it weren't for injuries, he might be considered up there with the all time greats.  Injuries didn't keep others from getting in.  With Lindros, I always compare to Neely, Lindros deserves to be there much more than Neely as far as I'm concerned.


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#36 Playmaker

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:58 PM

900+ games (1000 if you count playoffs) is too short? And what will compling a couple more ppg or less seasons do to make Pavel more worthy in your mind? We know what type of player he is and what he brings, 5 years of dimishing hockey won't change that. Also remember he might've had his peak year taken away in 05. Abel didn't play any where close to the amount of games these two have. Both have played more than Ted as well.

Actually Pav has played 83 less games than Lindsey. By next year it wil be close. My mistake.

The seasons were shorter back then.

 

In any event, I didn't say Dastyuk wasn't a good player.  He's had some terrific seasons.  Sucks that he got caught in both lockouts, but so have a lot of players.  I think his talent is right up there, but his HOF status is tenuous at best.  He basically left Detroit once and only came back after his team folded.  A great player, but not worthy of having his number retired.



#37 martinezsvsu

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

feds and dats are the most talented wings of all time. tell your kids that. but to have your jersey retired you should be a hall of fame player without question



#38 Itchin' to go

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

I agree that 91 and 13 were the most amazing, talented, and dominating players I've ever seen in Winged wheel. That said I dont think of them the same way I do 19 or 5. If Dats stays 5 more years I may rethink that.

#39 Ally

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:49 PM

I like that the Wings don't retire a lot of numbers so I'd say no to retiring #13 but there is no question in my mind that he should be in the Hall of Fame one day.
When it comes to the HOF I don't think it should just be a matter of numbers. There has to be room for players who were extraordinary in a way that numbers just can't reflect.

 
"Everything he does is exciting to watch.” -Holmstrom describes Datsyuk


#40 Richdg

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:46 AM

It is way to early to discuss Datsyuk in the rafters. He needs another STRONG 5 years to be in that catagory. Z will never be in that catagory. Reading some of the posts on here, you guys show your age. There are a bunch of guys equal or greater than datsyuk and Z that are not in the HOF or have their numbers retired. To be considered at that level, you need to be a once in a generation talent, and not sure either of them are. we are talking about a fine line here. What is the difference between being very good vs great vs once in a generation talent? Some of us are old enough to remember seeing Howe play, grew up on The Great One, watched Super Mario. No the NHL isn't the same as when those guys played. But would datsyuk and Z dominate in the other eras? not sure they would. But again, in 5 years after each puts up another 300 points, maybe we can have this conversation.







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