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Pasha's Legacy


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#41 The Axe

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:01 AM

It is way to early to discuss Datsyuk in the rafters. He needs another STRONG 5 years to be in that catagory. Z will never be in that catagory. Reading some of the posts on here, you guys show your age. There are a bunch of guys equal or greater than datsyuk and Z that are not in the HOF or have their numbers retired. To be considered at that level, you need to be a once in a generation talent, and not sure either of them are. we are talking about a fine line here. What is the difference between being very good vs great vs once in a generation talent? Some of us are old enough to remember seeing Howe play, grew up on The Great One, watched Super Mario. No the NHL isn't the same as when those guys played. But would datsyuk and Z dominate in the other eras? not sure they would. But again, in 5 years after each puts up another 300 points, maybe we can have this conversation.


I'm sorry, but you derailed your argument by excluding Pavel from the one in a generation category. Fedorov is the most talented all around hockey player of all time, but Pavel Datsyuk is the craftiest player that has ever touched a hockey puck. His highlite reel speaks for itself. Guys like Zetterberg and Iginla are great players, but I'd agree with you that they are not magical. Datsyuk does things on a regular basis that make you put both hands on your head, open your eyes wide, and smile in disbelief. He is a once in a lifetime player.

#42 Kira

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:28 AM

I would hope that we have a couple more years at the very least to let Pasha seal his reputation and career.  If I know him, he'll probably push every thought of retiring his jersey aside...he cares more about the team than he does himself when it comes to achievements.  Does his number belong in the rafters?  I'm biased - I say yes.  But let's see what happens between now and the time he does finally leave (which I hope is not for a long while yet).


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#43 Richdg

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:44 AM

I'm sorry, but you derailed your argument by excluding Pavel from the one in a generation category. Fedorov is the most talented all around hockey player of all time, but Pavel Datsyuk is the craftiest player that has ever touched a hockey puck. His highlite reel speaks for itself. Guys like Zetterberg and Iginla are great players, but I'd agree with you that they are not magical. Datsyuk does things on a regular basis that make you put both hands on your head, open your eyes wide, and smile in disbelief. He is a once in a lifetime player.

You can disagree if you want, which is fine. But there ae many players would consider better than Datsyuk and Z. Go back to the basics. What is the primary goal in hockey? To win. How do you do that? Score goals. Datsyuk has only broken the 30 goal per year mark 3 times, out of 11 seasons. he isn't even a point per game guy for his career. Really close yes. But when you start talking once in a generation players, I think of guys tha can score 120+ points per season. Guys like Gretzky averaged for his career 2 points per game! Super Mario was almost 2 points per game, and if not for cancer would have blown The Great One away for career numbers. Stevie had 6 seasons where he went over 100 points, Datsyuk has none. His career high was/is 97.

As a forward you are measured on points, wins and Cups. On 2 of those 3 Datsyuk has work to do. Needs more points and more Cups. At this point in his career, not sure he is going to get those.



#44 Number19

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:00 PM

You can disagree if you want, which is fine. But there ae many players would consider better than Datsyuk and Z. Go back to the basics. What is the primary goal in hockey? To win. How do you do that? Score goals. Datsyuk has only broken the 30 goal per year mark 3 times, out of 11 seasons. he isn't even a point per game guy for his career. Really close yes. But when you start talking once in a generation players, I think of guys tha can score 120+ points per season. Guys like Gretzky averaged for his career 2 points per game! Super Mario was almost 2 points per game, and if not for cancer would have blown The Great One away for career numbers. Stevie had 6 seasons where he went over 100 points, Datsyuk has none. His career high was/is 97.

As a forward you are measured on points, wins and Cups. On 2 of those 3 Datsyuk has work to do. Needs more points and more Cups. At this point in his career, not sure he is going to get those.

All of those guys played in higher scoring eras. I'm not saying Pav would've been close to their numbers in that era (he wouldn't have but those are 3 of the top players of all time depending on where you put Yzerman) but it's an unfair comparsion. Pav has played the majority of his career in dead puck era or dead puck era-lite. The couple seasons where scoring was closer to the level of the 80s and early 90s Pavs put up 97 point seasons. Adjusted stats on Hockey Reference puts that at a 105 and 100 point pace. By comparsion Yzerman's astronomical season of 155 points is at an adjusted 128 points. Another thing to consider is Dats plays elite defense. As good as if not better defense than all 3 of them (at least the Stevie of the 80s). I can't accurately rate Gretz or Mario because I didn't see them play day in and day out but I've never heard people mistake them as defensive workhorses. Maybe if Pavel didn't spend so much of his energy playing a two-way game he'd put up higher offensive totals.


Edited by Number19, 02 May 2013 - 01:05 PM.


#45 Number19

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:08 PM

nevermind this. can't figure out how to delete posts.


Edited by Number19, 02 May 2013 - 01:16 PM.


#46 Nev

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:46 PM

It is way to early to discuss Datsyuk in the rafters. He needs another STRONG 5 years to be in that catagory. Z will never be in that catagory. Reading some of the posts on here, you guys show your age. There are a bunch of guys equal or greater than datsyuk and Z that are not in the HOF or have their numbers retired. To be considered at that level, you need to be a once in a generation talent, and not sure either of them are. we are talking about a fine line here. What is the difference between being very good vs great vs once in a generation talent? Some of us are old enough to remember seeing Howe play, grew up on The Great One, watched Super Mario. No the NHL isn't the same as when those guys played. But would datsyuk and Z dominate in the other eras? not sure they would. But again, in 5 years after each puts up another 300 points, maybe we can have this conversation.

 

Have you ever watched hockey from the 80s?  I can't even begin to imagine the carnage that Pav would cause with the level of goaltending and defence that the likes of Gretzky, Mario and Yzerman got to plunder.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#47 Richdg

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:54 PM

 

Have you ever watched hockey from the 80s?  I can't even begin to imagine the carnage that Pav would cause with the level of goaltending and defence that the likes of Gretzky, Mario and Yzerman got to plunder.

Yes, love hockey from the 80's points and fights eveywhere! Notice how when the NHL tried to get rid of the later, the former also declined? Why is that I wonder?

 

As for other things. Gretzky and mario where great defensive players. They understood all to well, that the best defense is a great offense. The other team can't score when you have the puck and are scoring on them. Which is what they did. Now would Datsyuk have more points? yes. but also keep in mind he isn't a natural goal scorer. he is a setup guy. The 3 I mentioned and many others were goal scorers. Heck is datsyuk as good as LeFluer was? No. Hull? No. I really haven't even touched on the guys from the 60's-before my time. But Bossey, Trottier, Dionne, Howe, Esposito, etc... Were all better than datsyuk.  Sorry if I misspelled some names.

Now that does not mean Datsyuk isn't great. But is he even the best playing in his era? As RW fans we are naturally blind and say yes. I am not sure he is. Top 10 yes, but best? No. As for today, he isn't even top 10 anymore. More 25-30 range. But again that happens to all of us with age.



#48 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:16 PM

Yes, love hockey from the 80's points and fights eveywhere! Notice how when the NHL tried to get rid of the later, the former also declined? Why is that I wonder?

 

As for other things. Gretzky and mario where great defensive players. They understood all to well, that the best defense is a great offense. The other team can't score when you have the puck and are scoring on them. Which is what they did. Now would Datsyuk have more points? yes. but also keep in mind he isn't a natural goal scorer. he is a setup guy. The 3 I mentioned and many others were goal scorers. Heck is datsyuk as good as LeFluer was? No. Hull? No. I really haven't even touched on the guys from the 60's-before my time. But Bossey, Trottier, Dionne, Howe, Esposito, etc... Were all better than datsyuk.  Sorry if I misspelled some names.

Now that does not mean Datsyuk isn't great. But is he even the best playing in his era? As RW fans we are naturally blind and say yes. I am not sure he is. Top 10 yes, but best? No. As for today, he isn't even top 10 anymore. More 25-30 range. But again that happens to all of us with age.

But they could score when those 'great defensive players' who were too busy scoring, left the ice. Not to mention, scoring a tonne of goals doesn't mean you're good defensively it just means you can score. So moot point really. And if you want to make a point of it, Dats is put on the ice to stop people from scoring, by playing in both their end and his own.

 

You can disagree if you want, which is fine. But there ae many players would consider better than Datsyuk and Z. Go back to the basics. What is the primary goal in hockey? To win. How do you do that? Score goals. Datsyuk has only broken the 30 goal per year mark 3 times, out of 11 seasons. he isn't even a point per game guy for his career. Really close yes. But when you start talking once in a generation players, I think of guys tha can score 120+ points per season. Guys like Gretzky averaged for his career 2 points per game! Super Mario was almost 2 points per game, and if not for cancer would have blown The Great One away for career numbers. Stevie had 6 seasons where he went over 100 points, Datsyuk has none. His career high was/is 97.

As a forward you are measured on points, wins and Cups. On 2 of those 3 Datsyuk has work to do. Needs more points and more Cups. At this point in his career, not sure he is going to get those.

And compared to what Dats does, they're boring as ****. Axe wasn't disagreeing, he was simply pointing out that Dats IS a once in a lifetime player, which was your criteria before you changed and started talking about points and scoring.


Edited by Wing Across The Pond, 02 May 2013 - 04:18 PM.

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#49 joshy207

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:07 PM

Lest we forget the great Gordie Howe left Detroit because he wanted more money too?

 

Where did you hear that?  Gordie was basically forced to retire after the 1970-71 season.  He was given a front-office "job" where he basically had nothing to do.  In 1973, when Houston of the WHA wanted to sign his sons, his wife talked to them about signing Gordie, too, who wanted to play and felt he still could.  (Obviously, he was right!!)  It wasn't a money issue, the Wings didn't even want him playing.



#50 13dangledangle

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:20 PM

 

If Datsyuk gets his jersey retired, then Fedorov is a no brainer.  Because we wouldn't be talking about 22 straight years, or even anywhere close to that if not for Fedorov...we also wouldn't be talking 3 Cups in 6 years without Fedorov...

 

I know this isn't a debate over Feds/Dats, but I love how folks (and no offense to the OP) bend over backwards to say how much Dats deserves his jersey in the rafters and its ok for him to want to go play somewhere he wants to enjoy his life outside of hockey, yet when it comes to Fedorov and how he is at or near the top of every statistical category for the Red Wings, has won a Hart Trophy and also wanted to go play somewhere he would enjoy his life outside of hockey better, he gets boo'd and shunned and doesn't deserve the same recognition....

 

I agree with your assessment of Datsyuk, don't get me wrong. I say put them both in the rafters, they have both earned it...but you cannot put Dats up without Feds...

 

  Yes you really can.  They are in no way the same person.  I LOVE Fedorov and his entire era, however Feds later in his career seemed to put his rockstar status above his own team at times.  Datsyuk is not going to sit out for part of a season and watch on the sidelines waiting for a paycheck.  Does Feds belong in the rafters?  I think so but as admirable as Pavs?  No way... 


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#51 The Axe

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:40 AM

 
  Yes you really can.  They are in no way the same person.  I LOVE Fedorov and his entire era, however Feds later in his career seemed to put his rockstar status above his own team at times.  Datsyuk is not going to sit out for part of a season and watch on the sidelines waiting for a paycheck.  Does Feds belong in the rafters?  I think so but as admirable as Pavs?  No way... 


Pavs sat out for part of a season this year waiting for a better paycheck.

#52 Mitchmac33

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:10 PM

Pavs sat out for part of a season this year waiting for a better paycheck.

 

come on.







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