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Abdelkader suspended 2 games for hit on Lydman


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#41 puckloo39

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:22 PM

Re: the clip Axe posted:   I love Nik Kronwall more than ever.  And Hank.  And I agree with them, that the hit wasn't even called for penalty until Lyman just laid there for a while.  Guess this will be up to the politics of the game as it's played now.

 

I wear homer glasses most of the time with the Wings, but wonder if this had been Perry on one of our guys, if he wouldn't have just gotten 2 minutes, and done. 


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#42 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:27 PM

 

Then you're blind. He clearly hits the head first in all angles, and even if he leaves his feet after initial contact, you're still not allowed to leave your feet on purpose to make a hit worse. By the way his body was during that hit, it appears that he left his feet in a controlled manor. The only way you don't see it for what it is is if you're a homer. And I am 100% if this were Perry on Datsyuk, you'd be crying for blood. 

 

And the point remains, if Abdelkader kept himself on his feet, and his shoulder down, this would have been a big CLEAN hit, no penalty, no misconduct, no possible suspension. Just another case of Abdelkader being an idiot and making the worst possible play and costing the Wings a playoff game, just like 2009, 2010, and 2011.

 

Actually, leaving your feet after initial contact is completely legal and the main reason Kronwall has never been diciplined for his hits. Personal attacks aside if this situation were reversed and Datsyuk or any other wing was injured on the play I'd be defending the hit just the same. Its a contact sport and all contact to the head is not illegal or avoidable. 

 

What is illegal is jumping INTO a hit, which we seem to disagree on in this instance. I don't think Abby left his feet prior to contacting Lydman, and I don't think the head was the principle point of contact. The head was contacted certainly but only after the shoulder to shoulder impact and as a result of the upward momentum of the hit.

 

The only thing I don't like about the hit is because it's from the blindside, but by the letter of the NHL rules this isn't worthy of a suspension. That being said neither was Gryba's hit and he got 2 games so who knows what happens to Abby.

 

It all depends on how badly Lydman is hurt.



NAD timing for Abdelkader. I just don't understand why Pavel's hits are always flawless and the most devastating, while our other players (Kronwall & Abdelkader) can't ever just deliver a good body check. Watch the beginning of Datsyuks goal against Nashville this year. He starts by knocking a guy on his ass. No elbows, no flying arms, no leaving his skates. Just good technique.

 

Datsyuk's hits have the element of surprise as nobody expects him to hit them. Also until this hit from Abdelkader neither he or Kronwall have ever even had a suspension or even a hearing from my recollection.



#43 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:28 PM

 

Actually, leaving your feet after initial contact is completely legal and the main reason Kronwall has never been diciplined for his hits. Personal attacks aside if this situation were reversed and Datsyuk or any other wing was injured on the play I'd be defending the hit just the same. Its a contact sport and all contact to the head is not illegal or avoidable. 

 

What is illegal is jumping INTO a hit, which we seem to disagree on in this instance. I don't think Abby left his feet prior to contacting Lydman, and I don't think the head was the principle point of contact. The head was contacted certainly but only after the shoulder to shoulder impact and as a result of the upward momentum of the hit.

 

The only thing I don't like about the hit is because it's from the blindside, but by the letter of the NHL rules this isn't worthy of a suspension. That being said neither was Gryba's hit and he got 2 games so who knows what happens to Abby.

 

It all depends on how badly Lydman is hurt.

 

It will certainly be interesting if he's just fine on Monday and is in the line up.



#44 jeff48109

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:30 PM

he's going to get at least 2 games. 



#45 puckloo39

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:31 PM

 

It will certainly be interesting if he's just fine on Monday and is in the line up.

 

This will not surprise me at all. 

 

If I were Babs, I would sit Abby for the series regardless of what the decision is from Shanny.  Putting Abby back out there would just give Anaheim a righteous "reason" to take out Jimmy or Pasha... like, "the Wings DESERVED this!"   Tell me this couldn't happen with tools like Perry leading the pack?


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#46 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:38 PM

 

Actually, leaving your feet after initial contact is completely legal and the main reason Kronwall has never been diciplined for his hits. Personal attacks aside if this situation were reversed and Datsyuk or any other wing was injured on the play I'd be defending the hit just the same. Its a contact sport and all contact to the head is not illegal or avoidable. 

 

What is illegal is jumping INTO a hit, which we seem to disagree on in this instance. I don't think Abby left his feet prior to contacting Lydman, and I don't think the head was the principle point of contact. The head was contacted certainly but only after the shoulder to shoulder impact and as a result of the upward momentum of the hit.

 

The only thing I don't like about the hit is because it's from the blindside, but by the letter of the NHL rules this isn't worthy of a suspension. That being said neither was Gryba's hit and he got 2 games so who knows what happens to Abby.

 

It all depends on how badly Lydman is hurt.



 

Datsyuk's hits have the element of surprise as nobody expects him to hit them. Also until this hit from Abdelkader neither he or Kronwall have ever even had a suspension or even a hearing from my recollection.

 

Actually its not, if its decided that the person left their feet on their own, not as part of the momentum of the hit itself, its a charge. From all the angles I have seen it appears that Abdelkader left his feet on his own in order to make the hit harder, which has been called by the NHL a charge in the past. Also,  the angles I have seen show that the head was hit, if not first in isolation, it was still hit first along with Lydman's shoulder. The point is, had Abdelkader STAYED on his feet and not left them, this would have been a 100% legal hit, shoulder to shoulder, and there would have been no 5 mins penalty,and  no discussion of suspension, but, this is par for the course for Abdelkader, he takes stupid penalties in the playoffs.

 

As for Kronwall, I thought he was ejected in 2009 for a high hit. 


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#47 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

 

This will not surprise me at all. 

 

If I were Babs, I would sit Abby for the series regardless of what the decision is from Shanny.  Putting Abby back out there would just give Anaheim a righteous "reason" to take out Jimmy or Pasha... like, "the Wings DESERVED this!"   Tell me this couldn't happen with tools like Perry leading the pack?

 

But as Babcock said in his interview there isn't anybody available to adequately replace Abby. The Wings are not head and shoulders above the Ducks to be able to afford something like that.



#48 puckloo39

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:43 PM

 

But as Babcock said in his interview there isn't anybody available to adequately replace Abby. The Wings are not head and shoulders above the Ducks to be able to afford something like that.

 

Probably right.  It goes without saying that Helm is the bigger loss, and nothing to be done about that.  I do believe Anaheim is low-class enough to use this as an excuse to hurt a Red Wing. Hope i am wrong, needless to say.


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#49 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:43 PM

You guys need to watch the entire replay and not just a clip.  There was no "charging" Abby was gliding into the hit, the principle point of contact was elbow to shoulder and the momentum of the hit followed thru to the head... again, head was not principle point of contact. Abby left his feet with the hit, much like Kronwall did 100% of the time (when he used to hit) and 95% of his hits are deemed clean.  For those of you who think there wasn't a call on the ice, watch the video, when the camera follows the play down the ice, the ref in the Ducks zone, WAY in the ducks zone, has his arm up with the call. The guy 2 feet away watched the entire play transpire and watched Lydman fall to the ice and never had ANY intent of calling a penalty, because it was not a penalty, was not a charge, was not a principle hit to the head where the head is targeted...

 

I said it in the GDT, if this hit gets a suspension the there is something seriously wrong with the NHL.  He already served enough unwarranted penalty time. 5:00 and a game is suspension enough for a completely LEGAL hit and blown call by the ref 200 feet away. Also like I said, if you are looking for a play that has more intent on injuring someone you have to look at the Souray hit on Abby in game two and even Perry's careless use of his skate in game one. Those two plays there were way more severe when it comes to careless hits and intent to injury than Abby's hit last night...

 

 

 


Edited by LeftWinger, 05 May 2013 - 12:43 PM.

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#50 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:49 PM

 

Actually its not, if its decided that the person left their feet on their own, not as part of the momentum of the hit itself, its a charge. From all the angles I have seen it appears that Abdelkader left his feet on his own in order to make the hit harder, which has been called by the NHL a charge in the past. Also,  the angles I have seen show that the head was hit, if not first in isolation, it was still hit first along with Lydman's shoulder. The point is, had Abdelkader STAYED on his feet and not left them, this would have been a 100% legal hit, shoulder to shoulder, and there would have been no 5 mins penalty,and  no discussion of suspension, but, this is par for the course for Abdelkader, he takes stupid penalties in the playoffs.

 

As for Kronwall, I thought he was ejected in 2009 for a high hit. 

 

I do not know what angles you are watching....Abby left his feet with the hit, elbow hit the shoulder first, then head. Not a penalty. Not a charge.

 

BTW, Kronwall's hit in Chicago was deemed a penalty because it was said Havlat didn't play the puck and the ensuing hit resulted in injury.  Yet every replay shows Havlat play the puck with his foot and even the hit wasn't illegal.  Another blown call from the refs as proven by the fact that Kronwall suffered no further discipline for the hit.


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#51 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:49 PM

 

This will not surprise me at all. 

 

If I were Babs, I would sit Abby for the series regardless of what the decision is from Shanny.  Putting Abby back out there would just give Anaheim a righteous "reason" to take out Jimmy or Pasha... like, "the Wings DESERVED this!"   Tell me this couldn't happen with tools like Perry leading the pack?

 

This is the part of this whole scenario that bothers me the most, honestly.  I called it in the GDT right after it happened that they were going to start spouting "possible concussion" nonsense as soon as they could get in front of a microphone in order to infulence discipline.  Sure as s***, immediately postgame we have Boudreau yammering about "oh, he's got a headache, not gonna practice tomorrow."  I've got a headache this morning to, should the bottle of whiskey get supplementary discipline?  I cannot stand the PUNK ASS BABY s***.  Manipulating the system by crying injury after every hard hit, legal or not, to influence discipline is bulls*** and I hate that the league is heading in this direction.  It's bad enough that legitimate injury, like in the Eller case, determines discipline on a clean hit, but when you flop on the ice for an hour after a hit to not only try to draw a penalty, but set the stage for a later suspension?  :nono:


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#52 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:52 PM

You guys need to watch the entire replay and not just a clip.  There was no "charging" Abby was gliding into the hit, the principle point of contact was elbow to shoulder and the momentum of the hit followed thru to the head... again, head was not principle point of contact. Abby left his feet with the hit, much like Kronwall did 100% of the time (when he used to hit) and 95% of his hits are deemed clean.  For those of you who think there wasn't a call on the ice, watch the video, when the camera follows the play down the ice, the ref in the Ducks zone, WAY in the ducks zone, has his arm up with the call. The guy 2 feet away watched the entire play transpire and watched Lydman fall to the ice and never had ANY intent of calling a penalty, because it was not a penalty, was not a charge, was not a principle hit to the head where the head is targeted...

 

I said it in the GDT, if this hit gets a suspension the there is something seriously wrong with the NHL.  He already served enough unwarranted penalty time. 5:00 and a game is suspension enough for a completely LEGAL hit and blown call by the ref 200 feet away. Also like I said, if you are looking for a play that has more intent on injuring someone you have to look at the Souray hit on Abby in game two and even Perry's careless use of his skate in game one. Those two plays there were way more severe when it comes to careless hits and intent to injury than Abby's hit last night...

 

 

 

I took a screenshot at 57 seconds at what is the point of contact of the hit:

 

PointofContact3_zps26e71158.jpg

 

 

Two things are clear, #1 he is leaving his feet at the time of contact, not because of the contact, and #2 that initial contact is not shoulder to shoulder, or elbow to shoulder, but shoulder to head.


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#53 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:53 PM

 

Actually its not, if its decided that the person left their feet on their own, not as part of the momentum of the hit itself, its a charge. From all the angles I have seen it appears that Abdelkader left his feet on his own in order to make the hit harder, which has been called by the NHL a charge in the past. Also,  the angles I have seen show that the head was hit, if not first in isolation, it was still hit first along with Lydman's shoulder. The point is, had Abdelkader STAYED on his feet and not left them, this would have been a 100% legal hit, shoulder to shoulder, and there would have been no 5 mins penalty,and  no discussion of suspension, but, this is par for the course for Abdelkader, he takes stupid penalties in the playoffs.

 

As for Kronwall, I thought he was ejected in 2009 for a high hit. 

 

 

 

42.1 Charging - A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

 

 

 Abby made contact with his left skate still on the ice he did not jump INTO the hit.

 

Kronwall may have been ejected but he was never disciplined by the league. 



#54 puckloo39

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:54 PM

Boudreau is not stupid, if he thinks he can get Abby removed from the line up and influence the outcome of the series, then Lyman will be "unavailable" to play, regardless.  Lyman isn't a key loss to the *ucks. 

 

I hate to think they would use this as a way to manipulate the system, and hope that Lyman isn't hurt, needless to say -- but the way the game is played now... it's gamesmanship.  I have my suspicions.  :glare:


Edited by puckloo39, 05 May 2013 - 12:58 PM.

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#55 The Axe

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

Abdelkader has got to bury his shoulder down into the body of the player. Hitting his head accidentally is not acceptable. Its the right call. Its dangerous, and a suspension is warranted. I want our guys to get protection from these kind of plays as well.

#56 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

 

 

 

 Abby made contact with his left skate still on the ice he did not jump INTO the hit.

 

Kronwall may have been ejected but he was never disciplined by the league. 

ANY MANNER. At point of contact Abdelkader was leaving his feet, which would be him in a manner jumping into the hit, IE a charge.


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#57 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

I took a screenshot at 57 seconds at what is the point of contact of the hit:

 

PointofContact3_zps26e71158.jpg

 

 

Two things are clear, #1 he is leaving his feet at the time of contact, not because of the contact, and #2 that initial contact is not shoulder to shoulder, or elbow to shoulder, but shoulder to head.

 

1. That isn't the point of contact, its several frames after. 

2. While his right skate is airborne, his left skate is still firmly planted on the ice.



#58 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:57 PM

 

1. That isn't the point of contact, its several frames after. 

2. While his right skate is airborne, his left skate is still firmly planted on the ice.

Its not several frames after, point of contact in that play was at 57 seconds, check the video, at 56 there is still separation. And he is in the act of leaving his feet, that is not induced by the contact of the hit, but Abs doing it on his own.

 

Show me any shot from that replay that doesn't show: the point of contact as shoulder to chin, and that Abdelkader's leaving his feet did not start within microseconds of initial contact, and is a result of his contact, not of his own intention. 


Edited by Shaman464, 05 May 2013 - 12:59 PM.

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#59 The Axe

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:58 PM

I took a screenshot at 57 seconds at what is the point of contact of the hit:
 
PointofContact3_zps26e71158.jpg
 
 
Two things are clear, #1 he is leaving his feet at the time of contact, not because of the contact, and #2 that initial contact is not shoulder to shoulder, or elbow to shoulder, but shoulder to head.


You're correct. But its important to remember that this is clearly accidental. Abdelkader is not a malicious Matt Cooke kind of player. He just fouled up this check is all.

#60 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:00 PM

 

This is the part of this whole scenario that bothers me the most, honestly.  I called it in the GDT right after it happened that they were going to start spouting "possible concussion" nonsense as soon as they could get in front of a microphone in order to infulence discipline.  Sure as s***, immediately postgame we have Boudreau yammering about "oh, he's got a headache, not gonna practice tomorrow."  I've got a headache this morning to, should the bottle of whiskey get supplementary discipline?  I cannot stand the PUNK ASS BABY s***.  Manipulating the system by crying injury after every hard hit, legal or not, to influence discipline is bulls*** and I hate that the league is heading in this direction.  It's bad enough that legitimate injury, like in the Eller case, determines discipline on a clean hit, but when you flop on the ice for an hour after a hit to not only try to draw a penalty, but set the stage for a later suspension?  :nono:

 

I totally agree with the politics.  The NHL needs more players like Jakub Vorachek. When Kronwall destroyed him, after the game he said that he got hit clean and should have had his head up.  Most of the Flyers agreed with him. Was the hit devastating? Yes. Did the result look like Vorachek was seriously injured, yes. But, its a hockey hit. Vorachek said it was a good hit, there was no penalty and so suspension. As a matter of fact this hit was worse than Abby's...still no penalty, no suspension and Vorachek being a stand up guy, admitted it was more his own fault and didn't whine a cry to the media and complain about a headache and try to get someone suspended....what is the popular term nowadays? You Stay Classy "Anaheim" Well it's time to stay classy NHL. No suspension OR fine.

 


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