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Abdelkader suspended 2 games for hit on Lydman


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#61 Mitchmac33

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:00 PM

I took a screenshot at 57 seconds at what is the point of contact of the hit:

 

PointofContact3_zps26e71158.jpg

 

 

Two things are clear, #1 he is leaving his feet at the time of contact, not because of the contact, and #2 that initial contact is not shoulder to shoulder, or elbow to shoulder, but shoulder to head.

 

abdelkader.jpg



#62 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:01 PM

You're correct. But its important to remember that this is clearly accidental. Abdelkader is not a malicious Matt Cooke kind of player. He just fouled up this check is all.

I agree there isn't any intent to hit him in the head, the issue is that a hit to the head suspension doesn't need intent for a suspension to be given. 


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#63 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

I took a screenshot at 57 seconds at what is the point of contact of the hit:

 

PointofContact3_zps26e71158.jpg

 

 

Two things are clear, #1 he is leaving his feet at the time of contact, not because of the contact, and #2 that initial contact is not shoulder to shoulder, or elbow to shoulder, but shoulder to head.

 

We just see two different things...point of contact was shoulder. Left his feet with the hit, not before, which means he didn't leap into him. You have your opinion, and I respect it, but I disagree with it. Plus your circled a foot off the ice, where the other foot? On the ice...no jump.


Edited by LeftWinger, 05 May 2013 - 01:03 PM.

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#64 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

 

abdelkader.jpg

 

The offending foot is obstructed and you know it. I showed the RIGHT foot leaving the ice has he was jumping off his LEFT foot into Lydman.  PS thats one foot, not 2 feet that you are pointing two. Also, thats about 2-3 frames before the hit was initiated, go forward to when the hit starts and Abs is jumping.


Edited by Shaman464, 05 May 2013 - 01:04 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
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In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
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Im Wasser verbrannt

#65 RedLightGoesOn

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:03 PM

The officiating and front office of the NHL really need to get their act together when they call penalties and issue suspensions. That said, Abby made a real bone headed play and he deserves to get suspended (in fairness with all the other hits just like it). I hate it, I hate admitting it, but that was a major screw up on his part.


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#66 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:04 PM

ANY MANNER. At point of contact Abdelkader was leaving his feet, which would be him in a manner jumping into the hit, IE a charge.

 
Skating into a guy on one foot isn't considered jumping into a hit, no matter how much you try to stretch the definition of a jump.
 
screengrabcopy.jpg
 
This image is as close to the moment of impact as you can find and as you can see they are shoulder to shoulder and Abby's skates are on the ice.

Edited by FlashyG, 05 May 2013 - 01:05 PM.


#67 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

 
Skating into a guy on one foot isn't considered jumping into a hit, no matter how much you try to stretch the definition of a jump.
 
screengrabcopy.jpg
 
This image is as close to the moment of impact as you can find and as you can see they are shoulder to shoulder and Abby's skates are on the ice.

There's no contact at that point, you take it a frame further and you have my image, shoulder to chin, contact, and his feet starting to leave the ice. 


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#68 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:07 PM

I agree there isn't any intent to hit him in the head, the issue is that a hit to the head suspension doesn't need intent for a suspension to be given. 

 

You need to brush up on the NHL rulebook. Intent is absolutely needed for a hit to the head penalty. Notice the bolded portion from the NHL's official rules.

 

 

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

 



#69 Mitchmac33

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:08 PM

 

The offending foot is obstructed and you know it. I showed the RIGHT foot leaving the ice has he was jumping off his LEFT foot into Lydman.  PS thats one foot, not 2 feet that you are pointing two. Also, thats about 2-3 frames before the hit was initiated, go forward to when the hit starts and Abs is jumping.

 

Sorry, foot on the ice. and I was gonna use a different angle and show you, but Flashy G beat me to it.  So as you can see from their screenshot both feet are on the ice.  Flashy's last post has it down. (Technically it's two posts ago now lol)


Edited by Mitchmac33, 05 May 2013 - 01:08 PM.


#70 Zetts

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:08 PM

 

The offending foot is obstructed and you know it. I showed the RIGHT foot leaving the ice has he was jumping off his LEFT foot into Lydman.  PS thats one foot, not 2 feet that you are pointing two. Also, thats about 2-3 frames before the hit was initiated, go forward to when the hit starts and Abs is jumping.

Huh?  It's not jumping if one foot is on the ice.

 

By the way, Lydman is not currently at the Ducks' practice.


Edited by Zetts, 05 May 2013 - 01:09 PM.


#71 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:09 PM

There's no contact at that point, you take it a frame further and you have my image, shoulder to chin, contact, and his feet starting to leave the ice. 

 

Actually there is contact between their shoulders, Lydman turns slightly at that point which is why he took contact to his head.

 

What that image does show conclusively to me is that Abby was targeting his shoulder NOT his head.



#72 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:12 PM

 

You need to brush up on the NHL rulebook. Intent is absolutely needed for a hit to the head penalty. Notice the bolded portion from the NHL's official rules.

 

Per NHL.com 2011 on Rule 48 clarification: 

 

Players will now face a minor penalty for any hit that involves primary contact to the head and shots that target an opponent's head and/or make it the principal point of contact.

 


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In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#73 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:12 PM

We can debate this all day and that is what makes this forum so awesome. I just hope that Shanahan sees it the way most of us do as no jumping into the player and no principle contact to the head.  It all happens so fast that anyone could form either opinion and could point out tons of reasons to justify it.  But I still have to go with the ref closest to the play. Abby stopped skating before the hit, left his feet WITH the hit, principle point of contact was shoulder then momentum into the head. The ref watched the entire play from start to finish. He deemed no penalty at all, but the ref 200 feet away said a 5:00 charge and a game misconduct. I could see if the guy right there said 2:00 for charging, but he said 0:00.  I just hope he expresses his opinion to Shanahan when asked about it. I believe there should be no suspension, but would not be surprised at all, if the NHL does suspend him and then of course Lydman will be in game 4.


Edited by LeftWinger, 05 May 2013 - 01:33 PM.

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#74 VM1138

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:13 PM

I don't see a suspension coming. Looking very closely and adjusting for camera angles, he stayed on the ice until after contact, and he didn't target the head.

I can see how people could see it either way, but when you look very closely and adjust, it just isn't suspendable.

Maybe Bertuzzi replaces him and shows him how to finish Datsyuk's plays if he does get suspended. That'd be nice.
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#75 redwings15

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:13 PM

why was old man teemu the first to go after abdelkader? give me a break. i wish teemu would drop the gloves to see if hes actually tough 



#76 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:15 PM

By the way, Lydman is not currently at the Ducks' practice.

 

:scared: Shocked, I tell you!!

 

Was just coming here to post this.  Apparently he's there, but won't take the ice.  Has "migraine and sore neck."  According to the Ducks' radio color analyst, Lydman "not likely to play anytime soon."

 

tumblr_inline_mgnuzmyou71ryjfq5_zpsfadd5


Edited by BottleOfSmoke, 05 May 2013 - 01:17 PM.

LGWsig_zpsa75c5d1e.jpg

 


#77 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:17 PM

Per NHL.com 2011 on Rule 48 clarification: 

 

You've already conceded the head wasn't targeted, I've already shown that the head wasn't the primary point of contact, and Abby wasn't assessed a minor or major penalty for hitting to the head. 

 

There was a ref only a couple feet away looking straight at the hit and he didn't think it was a hit to the head or he would have put his arm up. The penalty was only called after Lydman didn't get up and even then it looked to be a linesman that claimed it was a charge.



#78 Shaman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:19 PM

My issue is this: In recent years in all sports the head seems to have become fair game, there have been a lot studies that show such hits can cause permanent damage, even if there is little or no symptom presentation at the time of the injury. The head MUST be made off-limits, and even accidental contact should be punished to keep borderline plays out of the game. A player should do the mental calculus before a hit to make sure there is no way they hit the head, and Abdelkader could have gone an inch lower to make sure his hit was perfectly shoulder to shoulder. He didn't, he sacrificed safety trying to make a big play, even though its clear it wasn't his intent to hit the head. And that's the exact issue I have, if it comes between making a huge play and jeopardizing someone else, everyone should be trained from a young age to let up and adjust point of contact. He didn't and the Wings are suffering now because of it.

 

PS if you look at most head shot threads on this forum I say the same thing as I am now, I will not be a hypocrite because its a Wings player involved. 


Edited by Shaman464, 05 May 2013 - 01:20 PM.

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In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
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#79 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:19 PM

Principal point of contact is not necessarily the same as initial point of contact. If the shoulder got only glancing blow and the head got hit square on then head might as well be the principal point of contact.

 

The point is I got no idea how they are going to interpret the rules in this particular case. It would be nice to have a set of rules, which only allows for a single interpretation but that might be asking too much out of English (or any other language).



#80 FlashyG

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:20 PM

Huh?  It's not jumping if one foot is on the ice.

 

By the way, Lydman is not currently at the Ducks' practice.

 

If Lydman isn't going to play in game 4 I don't expect Abby will either, even though I don't think he deserves a game.

 

It seems when it comes to discipline in the NHL the extent of the injury determines the length of the suspension.







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