Jump to content


Photo
* - - - - 1 votes

Official Franzen VS Hossa


  • Please log in to reply
98 replies to this topic

#21 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

    Starting Goaltender

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Southfield, MI

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:06 AM

You should be sure, seeing as you've been told several times. We were over the cap for the entire 2009-10 season, using the LTIR excemption. Fitting even the extra $1.3 for Hossa instead of Franzen would have been difficult. Keeping both would have required something like not signing Bert or Willy and somehow losing Cleary and Draper. Then you could afford Hossa and fill the remaining spots with players near league minimum. Plus then we'd have three potential problem contracts in later years.


Wow...they sure told you...

Buppy.., you sound like an angry mother scolding a child...calm down
[ Image violated Forum Guidelines. Please use images sixed 400x100 pixels or smaller. ]

Just playin Chris, you know I love you!

lilja is an icelandic pony
lilja is an average high girl with blond hair and very sexy
lilja is about the sweetest kitten we have raised here
lilja is the comatose victim of a questionable accident

#22 The Secret

The Secret

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,196 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, ON

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:08 AM

I give the edge to Marian but some of you make it sound like we are trying to compare Crosby to Jeff Finger. They A lot closer than some seem to think.

 

Hardly, 1 guy is a 1 dimensional player.... sometimes, if he feels like it. The other is valuable with or without the puck and has proven this everywhere he's been. Its no contest Hossa >>>> Mule



#23 F.Michael

F.Michael

    Old School Dynamic Duo

  • HoF Booster
  • 7,505 posts
  • Location:Wisconsin

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:10 AM

Who cares, we have Danny Cleary.

I actually giggled/snorted like a little girl while reading this.



'Evolution' created by Offsides

#24 Crymson

Crymson

    Ninjelephant

  • Gold Booster
  • 11,032 posts
  • Location:Denver, CO, USA

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:19 AM

 

Hardly, 1 guy is a 1 dimensional player.... sometimes, if he feels like it. The other is valuable with or without the puck and has proven this everywhere he's been. Its no contest Hossa >>>> Mule

 

You're the first person I've ever seen call Franzen a one-dimensional player.



#25 The Secret

The Secret

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,196 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, ON

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:22 AM

 

You're the first person I've ever seen call Franzen a one-dimensional player.

 

Lol what's the other dimension to his game? Coasting? Facewashing? Lame TV commercials?



#26 ogreslayer

ogreslayer

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,957 posts
  • Location:Indianapolis

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:26 AM

Actual cap info for the 2009-10 season.  Where exactly would Hossa's $5m+ cap hit have fit with this team?

 

(rounding cap #s)

 

Datsyuk: $6.7m

Zetterberg: $6.08m

Franzen: $4m

Filppula: $3m

Cleary: $2.8m

Holmstrom: $2.25m

Draper: $1.6m

Bertuzzi: $1.5m

Williams: $1.5m

Maltby: $900k

Helm: $600k

Leino: $530k

Abdelkader: $520k

Eaves: $500k

Miller: $413k

May: $330k

 

Lidstrom: $7.45m

Rafalski: $6m

Stuart: $3.75m

Kronwall: $3m

Lilja: $1.25m

Ericsson: $900k

Lebda: $650k

Meech: $483k

 

Osgood: $1.4m

Howard: $716k

 

Spending: $58,827,920

Cap limit: $56,800,000

LTIR credit: $2,027,920

 

FYI, I left off players with an actual cap hit of less than 50% of their max hit during the season like callups (Kindl, Larsson), waived (Ritola), or traded for at the deadline and never played. (Tollefsen)


Edited by ogreslayer, 14 May 2013 - 11:31 AM.


#27 dirtydangles

dirtydangles

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,690 posts

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:32 AM

Franzen and Hossa are pretty close as far as talent - but Hossa is by far more consistent. I think if Franzen could return to his playoff beast form then he would be worth it. I'd prefer to have a playoff performer than a regular season performer.


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#28 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:42 AM



#29 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,094 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:48 AM

I gotta get going, but i'll leave this here real quick. Its 2005-06 - last season, including Hossa's incredible 90/100 pt seasons, and Franzen's Colorado thrashing. Enjoy

 

Sws02ht.jpg


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#30 RedWingsDad

RedWingsDad

    Bigot

  • Restricted
  • PipPip
  • 437 posts

Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:58 AM

 

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers (9,2m, what?) and his cap hit is 5.275m and the contract comes off when he retires, but I'd sure be happy if Hossa is bought out (which probably won't happen) and we can sign him.

 

 

ppshh, ever since Hossa signed with Chicago and made a public statement that he was now playing in the real hockeytown... he has been my enemy. I don't want him.


Tim Thomas - Patriot and generally awesome human being.
 
Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

#31 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,081 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:51 PM

 

 

ppshh, ever since Hossa signed with Chicago and made a public statement that he was now playing in the real hockeytown... he has been my enemy. I don't want him.

 

Technically ever since he joined there they HAVE iced a better team, that being said I really do not care that we did not sign him. Everyone saying he is way more consistent is a liar, he is quite streaky as well, and guess what, for the fact checkers, 31 points in 40 games this year, and franzen had 31 points in 41 games. 

 

hossa was a +16 on a team that scored way more goals and had a +53 goal differential, while Franzen was a +13 on a team with 31 goals less scored, and 13 goals more against, with a +9 goal differential.

 

Anyone who can refer to him as one dimensional (see hudler) is dreaming, and anyone who claims hossa to be 10X the player, is lying.



#32 Z and D for the C

Z and D for the C

    This is the TBL forum, right?

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,025 posts
  • Location:D, Michigan

Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:56 PM

 

You're the first person I've ever seen call Franzen a one-dimensional player.

 

Franzen in a one-dimensional player. He is great at scoring goals when his line mates do most of the work for him. He doesn't make plays, he doesn't forecheck, he doesn't back check, he doesn't cycle, he doesn't battle along the boards. If Hossa isn't scoring goals, he is still do an enormous amount for the team (see: 2009 playoffs). If Franzen isn't scoring goals, he may as well not be on the ice.


Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#33 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,113 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:03 PM

I'm a huge Hossa fan, I think he's one of if not the best winger in the game considering his two way play. But I understand where the Wings were at that time, I really would have preferred both of them, but there is no way that was possible at the time, and the only way it seems possible now is the sudden Rafalski retirement.

 

Franzen was a home grown guy that just exploded in the playoffs, there is no way in the world a team would let him go.



#34 Fedorovfan

Fedorovfan

    humble servant

  • Member
  • 45 posts
  • Location:In the spirit of God

Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:06 PM

Not sure. I just wanna beat the Blackhawks


Lets go Red Wings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


#35 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

    Starting Goaltender

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Southfield, MI

Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:16 PM

I gotta get going, but i'll leave this here real quick. Its 2005-06 - last season, including Hossa's incredible 90/100 pt seasons, and Franzen's Colorado thrashing. Enjoy
 
Sws02ht.jpg


This analysis is flawed because it fails to factor in the 2+ seasons Franzen was a 4th line checking forward while Hossa was the top 1-2 players on his team and playing on the first line and power play.
[ Image violated Forum Guidelines. Please use images sixed 400x100 pixels or smaller. ]

Just playin Chris, you know I love you!

lilja is an icelandic pony
lilja is an average high girl with blond hair and very sexy
lilja is about the sweetest kitten we have raised here
lilja is the comatose victim of a questionable accident

#36 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,094 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:21 PM

Still busy, but I was able to make this while I had a few minutes. Graph shows PPG over the course of regular seasons, 05-06 - current season;

 

fKjv61A.jpg


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#37 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

    Starting Goaltender

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Location:Southfield, MI

Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:35 PM

Still busy, but I was able to make this while I had a few minutes. Graph shows PPG over the course of regular seasons, 05-06 - current season;
 
fKjv61A.jpg

To me this paints the picture that I always thought represented reality.

Both players are very consistent (since The Choice ™ ).Hossa is a slightly better point producer than Franzen. Not by any means head and shoulders better. Their cap hits reflect this. Don't really know why there is a debate here tbh. I guess you should look at playoffs too.

Edited by Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot), 14 May 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[ Image violated Forum Guidelines. Please use images sixed 400x100 pixels or smaller. ]

Just playin Chris, you know I love you!

lilja is an icelandic pony
lilja is an average high girl with blond hair and very sexy
lilja is about the sweetest kitten we have raised here
lilja is the comatose victim of a questionable accident

#38 LeftWinger

LeftWinger

    42 years in Detroit! Time to spend the rest in paradise!

  • Silver Booster
  • 8,571 posts
  • Location:HART - MI

Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:57 PM

Question for everyone who thinks Kenny should have signed Hossa to the same/similar contract that he got from Chicago: How comfortable would you be having a cap hit of ~$4.6m a year on the books for 4 years starting in the 2017-18 season until the contract's end when Hossa retires after the 2016-17 season at the age of 38?  Or lets say he does make it to 40.  That would mean a ~$9.2m a season cap hit in 2019-20 & 2020-21.  That's what Chicago is facing which is why he's a good buy out candidate in the off season.

 

If they buy out Hossa, Holland best be the first one on the phone! Offering him $4M a season for 8 years...


Don't Be Jealous Because I Live Here...

www.thinkdunes.com

 


#39 canadian wings fan

canadian wings fan

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 853 posts
  • Location:Vancouver

Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

 

 

I HATE this question.  I hear it all the time on LGW, as if it was some clear A vs. B choice.  Nobody ever says "Why did we keep Zetterberg or Kronwall instead of Hossa", even though those guys have more comparable contracts - they only want to compare the two LH-shooting Euro power forwards.

 

Here is why I lose ZERO sleep over the Hossa vs. Franzen thing:

 

  • Hossa was a known mercenary from the day we signed him.  He was a mercenary for Pittsburgh, and he was a stopgap solution for us.  If both sides had been so committed to keeping Hossa here long term, he would've gotten more than the glorified "Alex Semin" one-year deal that he got in July 2008 from us (1 year, $7.45 mil, IIRC)
  • Franzen and Hossa were roughly the same age (both born in 1979) and have similarities in their game, so spending $10 mil + on the same type of player would have been superfluous when we needed to sign goaltending and defense at the time.
  • At the end of 2009, Franzen's reputation was as a clutch playoff performer, whereas Hossa had a disappointing playoff performance, which soured the fanbase on him.  (The same fanbase, btw, ignores the fact that Datsyuk scored all of 1 goal in the '09 Playoffs on a bad foot, and celebrates Lidstrom's toughness for his "groin" injury, while ignoring played all 23 games with a destroyed shoulder)
  • Franzen's contract was FAR more favorable heading into an uncertain CBA situation.  Not only is the cap hit about $1.3 million less, but it's a year shorter, and notably less egregious in terms of circumventing the CBA with "backdiver" provisions, which was a growing concern of the NHL at that time, as they cracked down on the Kovalchuk deal
  • While both are "power forwards" (and Hossa's defensive game is admittedly better), Franzen seemed the more likely of the two to assume the role of "guy who stands in front of the net, screens goalies, and picks up garbage goals.  Holmstrom was on his way out, and the Wings really hadn't been absent a player of that type dating back to Ciccarelli in the mid-90's.  Hossa is a better overall player, but (particularly in the '09 Playoffs), he plays more of a finesse game and stays on the perimeter a bit.
  • Amnesty buyout.  This whole conversation basically became moot anyway in the 2013 CBA.  If Franzen's contract is so bad, they can just buy it out, rather than keeping it until 2020.  If they don't do that, and elect to keep him despite the lower salary cap and other changes in the CBA, that tells you that they probably still view it as a pretty good contract.
  • The Hossa signing only "worked" for Chicago because they had to bend and twist the 2005 CBA in every way possible.  It was perceived at the time that it might cost them one of their other core players down the road, like Duncan Keith.  What they did instead was bury Huet in the minors (which you can no longer do) and thin out all their role players, which led to early exits in 2011 and 2012.  They have since rebuilt those lower lines, so the Hossa experiment has "worked", but it's not clear that it also would have "worked" for us.

 

Holy **** dude incredibly well put.

/topic



#40 LeftWinger

LeftWinger

    42 years in Detroit! Time to spend the rest in paradise!

  • Silver Booster
  • 8,571 posts
  • Location:HART - MI

Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:11 PM

I will just put it out there that I did not start nor suggest this thread. I just said in the other thread that if we beat the Hawks or if Franzen outscores Hossa win or lose, I will never complain about "The Choice" again.  I may still complain about Franzen or wish for a trade, but the comparison and choice I wanted will never be mentioned.

 

That being said, again if the Hawks buyout Hossa I am praying that he becomes a Red Wing for the next 8 years and we can have both of these guys! Sniper problem soved...debate over! :D


Don't Be Jealous Because I Live Here...

www.thinkdunes.com

 






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users