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#181 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

 
I don't think you read what I wrote.


I did. But you angled your description to fit only Franzen. Thats not realistic. I want our GM looking for GOOD value. Not FMV. Having the guy who should be a 6m cap hit but only takes 4m is a good value. At this point, Franzen isnt providing us what we need in the 3 spot. That's our most glaring weakness.

Because Drew Miller hits and scores at the highest rate per ice time per dollar paid on our team doesnt mean we should just say "problem solved", right?

Franzen gets the juicy linemates. He gets the juicy ice time. He gets the pp time. And yet you keep defending his stats that we arent really worried about. Its TOUGHNESS that the Red Wings need. Not 3 more goal and 2 more assists per season. Its the guy that sends Shaw home with a broken face in game 4 and starts his golf season early before he has a chance to cheap shot and injure our 2nd line center in game 7. The Wings need Franzen to play like Bickell. Not like 45 year old Jari Kurri.

#182 wingsfan4795

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:34 PM

Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

So I guess we haven't had a great player in quite a while. I guess there's only about 1-3 "great" players in the league. By those standards, I'm ok with sub-great.

I agree that franzen hasn't lived up to his former playoff years, but the last couple years were kind of weird for the wings. Last year nobody played very well and we were out in 5 games. This year we got perhaps the most balanced scoring we've ever had. Nobody had great point production, but everyone chipped in enough to get the job done (minus a couple games at the end)

I think franzen plays well with the right guys around him. Wasn't he at his best with Datsyuk and Zetterberg on his line? We didnt have the top 6 depth the last couple years to put that line together. Hopefully nyquist and Brunner (or someone else) can prove themselves as good top 6 players this year and Babcock will be able to put franzen with the right guys to get him going

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#183 Jesusberg

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:42 PM

I did. But you angled your description to fit only Franzen. Thats not realistic. I want our GM looking for GOOD value. Not FMV. Having the guy who should be a 6m cap hit but only takes 4m is a good value. At this point, Franzen isnt providing us what we need in the 3 spot. That's our most glaring weakness.

 

Unless you get a guy coming off an ELC, or one of those really good "bridge contracts", this doesn't exist in the NHL anymore. Nearly all the guys who play around a similar point-per game production are making like 5+ million. 



#184 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:58 PM

 

Unless you get a guy coming off an ELC, or one of those really good "bridge contracts", this doesn't exist in the NHL anymore. Nearly all the guys who play around a similar point-per game production are making like 5+ million. 

 

Yes, on shorter term contracts though...if Franzen were on a 5 year deal, he'd be topping $8M a season for his (lack of) production.  The only reason he is at $3.9M is because of the 11 years.  If all those other guys were also on 11 year contract, they'd be in the $3M's as well.  There is nothing valuable about Franzen's contract, because we are stuck with him for the next 7 years....

 

 

Lets look at James Neal, currently making $5M per season.  Similar numbers, he's up and down has actually scored 40 before, but he averages in the mid 20's.  He signed a 6yr $30M contract.  Franzen singed an 11 year $43M contract...who has the better value, Franzen cost us $13M more...

 

Lets see what Franzen would be making if he had signed a 6yr deal....oh geez, $7.1M per season.  Now what about Neal's $30M on an 11 year contract? $2.7M per.  Again, there is no value to Franzen contract. Period. I'd rather have Neal at $30M tens times over Franzen at $43M...

 

So who is more valuable? Franzen's 28 goals at $7.1M on a 6 year deal or Neal's $5M on a 6 year deal?  Franzen's $3.9M on an 11 year deal or Neal's $2.7M on an 11 year deal?  Franzen's $43M or Neal's $30M?  All three ways, Franzen is a waste of money...


Edited by LeftWinger, 11 June 2013 - 03:58 PM.

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#185 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

Lets look at Alex Burrows who is way better and way more consistent than Franzen.  He just signed a 4yr $18M contract.  If Franzen signed a 4yr deal, his cap hit would be $10.75M, if Burrows had an 11yr deal his would be $1.63M...Franzen at $43M is ludicrous compared to Burrows at $18M.  I would much rather have the $4.5M cap hit and be done with the contract after 4 years.  Franzen will still be making $3.9M cap hit when he only scoring 5 goals a season and riding the press box in the playoffs...

 

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter the cap hit when it comes to value for production.  At $43M he needs to be scoring 40 goals a season and not mailing it in during the playoffs...and to put an end to the Hossa debate, Hossa at $63M who has scored 29 or higher 10 times, 40 or higher 3 times and averages .91 PPG is more valuable than Franzen who's PPG is .59...


Edited by LeftWinger, 11 June 2013 - 04:13 PM.

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#186 Jesusberg

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:16 PM

First off, the cap hit recapture thing is complete garbage. It's the league's issue that they allowed those contracts, and now GM's following the rules are being penalized for finding loopholes int he league's shoddy system.

Secondly, you're bending numbers so out of proportion that I don't even know how to respond. Just because you average out numbers, and crunch them into different time periods doesn't mean you have the cap hits and salary right. Franzen would never make 7.1 million per year... ever. You can't just bend numbers from different players, because that's assuming every single player with similar production, and every GM in the league are the exact same. They're not. Each team is different too, by the way.

Franzen was signed to his current deal, because at the time, Holland was taking advantage of a loophole in the CBA. The bottom line is, at this very moment, Franzen's production is solid for the amount of cap hit and salary he is taking up. The cap recapture rule is horse s***. Had the league just dealt with this properly, Franzen's hit would be coming off the books, and it'd be a non-issue. It's not Franzen's fault, it's not Holland's fault... it's the NHL's mismanagement and backpedaling.


Edited by Jesusberg, 11 June 2013 - 04:16 PM.


#187 wingsfan4795

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

 
Yes, on shorter term contracts though...if Franzen were on a 5 year deal, he'd be topping $8M a season for his (lack of) production.  The only reason he is at $3.9M is because of the 11 years.  If all those other guys were also on 11 year contract, they'd be in the $3M's as well.  There is nothing valuable about Franzen's contract, because we are stuck with him for the next 7 years....
 
 
Lets look at James Neal, currently making $5M per season.  Similar numbers, he's up and down has actually scored 40 before, but he averages in the mid 20's.  He signed a 6yr $30M contract.  Franzen singed an 11 year $43M contract...who has the better value, Franzen cost us $13M more...
 
Lets see what Franzen would be making if he had signed a 6yr deal....oh geez, $7.1M per season.  Now what about Neal's $30M on an 11 year contract? $2.7M per.  Again, there is no value to Franzen contract. Period. I'd rather have Neal at $30M tens times over Franzen at $43M...
 
So who is more valuable? Franzen's 28 goals at $7.1M on a 6 year deal or Neal's $5M on a 6 year deal?  Franzen's $3.9M on an 11 year deal or Neal's $2.7M on an 11 year deal?  Franzen's $43M or Neal's $30M?  All three ways, Franzen is a waste of money...

What you said made absolutely no sense. If Neal signed an 11 year contract, it would be for a hell of a lot more than 30 mill. If franzen signed a 5 year contract, it would be for a hell of a lot less than 43 mill.

Once Nepal's 5 years are up, he'll sign another contract. You realize that right? Over the course of 11 years, he will make a lot more than franzen

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#188 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

So I guess we haven't had a great player in quite a while. I guess there's only about 1-3 "great" players in the league. By those standards, I'm ok with sub-great.

I agree that franzen hasn't lived up to his former playoff years, but the last couple years were kind of weird for the wings. Last year nobody played very well and we were out in 5 games. This year we got perhaps the most balanced scoring we've ever had. Nobody had great point production, but everyone chipped in enough to get the job done (minus a couple games at the end)

I think franzen plays well with the right guys around him. Wasn't he at his best with Datsyuk and Zetterberg on his line? We didnt have the top 6 depth the last couple years to put that line together. Hopefully nyquist and Brunner (or someone else) can prove themselves as good top 6 players this year and Babcock will be able to put franzen with the right guys to get him going


Youre missing the point too. If goals are the only thing you do for the team, then 28 goals a year with 20 mins of ice time with world class centers is not all that great. If you hit, fight, scrap, and are a +25, then 28 goals is fantastic. Franzen needs to play like Shanahan. Not like Franzen.

#189 puckbags

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:45 PM

 

Yes, on shorter term contracts though...if Franzen were on a 5 year deal, he'd be topping $8M a season for his (lack of) production.  The only reason he is at $3.9M is because of the 11 years.  If all those other guys were also on 11 year contract, they'd be in the $3M's as well.  There is nothing valuable about Franzen's contract, because we are stuck with him for the next 7 years....

 

 

Lets look at James Neal, currently making $5M per season.  Similar numbers, he's up and down has actually scored 40 before, but he averages in the mid 20's.  He signed a 6yr $30M contract.  Franzen singed an 11 year $43M contract...who has the better value, Franzen cost us $13M more...

 

Lets see what Franzen would be making if he had signed a 6yr deal....oh geez, $7.1M per season.  Now what about Neal's $30M on an 11 year contract? $2.7M per.  Again, there is no value to Franzen contract. Period. I'd rather have Neal at $30M tens times over Franzen at $43M...

 

So who is more valuable? Franzen's 28 goals at $7.1M on a 6 year deal or Neal's $5M on a 6 year deal?  Franzen's $3.9M on an 11 year deal or Neal's $2.7M on an 11 year deal?  Franzen's $43M or Neal's $30M?  All three ways, Franzen is a waste of money...

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Franzen's cap hit for the amount of goals he scores..fans will always want more..the issue for the Mule is that after he went nuts in the playoffs 2 years in a row our expectations of him went through the roof.  He's a 25-30 goal scorer and gets paid as such..he's never been a 40 goal scorer and never will be.  The formula you used comparing him to other guys is so strange....although contracts are paid out over a certain amount years the true essence of a good contract is to get the most out of a guy on a per year basis which is why all these long contracts that were created with the loophole take huge dives in the last few years.  Sign a guy for 10, hope he retires after 6 and if he doesn't hope he isn't in a wheel chair so you can get some value out of him.



Youre missing the point too. If goals are the only thing you do for the team, then 28 goals a year with 20 mins of ice time with world class centers is not all that great. If you hit, fight, scrap, and are a +25, then 28 goals is fantastic. Franzen needs to play like Shanahan. Not like Franzen.

Why would he ever play like Shanny? He was never compared to Shanny, he has never fought, never was a big hitter..I agree he should use his size more but you're making it sound like the guy should start doing things he was never supposed to or asked to do..makes 0 sense.  I want a Shanny type player too but it's not going to be Franzen and good luck finding one.


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#190 mjtm77

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

Lets look at Alex Burrows who is way better and way more consistent than Franzen.  He just signed a 4yr $18M contract.  If Franzen signed a 4yr deal, his cap hit would be $10.75M, if Burrows had an 11yr deal his would be $1.63M...Franzen at $43M is ludicrous compared to Burrows at $18M.  I would much rather have the $4.5M cap hit and be done with the contract after 4 years.  Franzen will still be making $3.9M cap hit when he only scoring 5 goals a season and riding the press box in the playoffs...

 

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter the cap hit when it comes to value for production.  At $43M he needs to be scoring 40 goals a season and not mailing it in during the playoffs...and to put an end to the Hossa debate, Hossa at $63M who has scored 29 or higher 10 times, 40 or higher 3 times and averages .91 PPG is more valuable than Franzen who's PPG is .59...

I don't even know what to say about that.....


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#191 matt198913

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:15 PM

Clarkson, Bickell or Horton that is all
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#192 Dominator2005

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:45 PM

My version of 2013 Red Wings:

Tatar - Dats - Clarkson/Horton
Clowe/Bickell - Z - Brunner
Abdelkader - Andersson - Nyquist
Miller - Helm - Tootoo

Kronwall - DeKe
Smith - E
Kindl - McQuaid
Colo

Trades: Franzen, Quincey and Eaves
Buyout: Sammy and Bert
Good luck in FA: Flip and Cleary
"Some guys dream about scoring goals, or making big saves... I swear to God I dream about kicking ass in a hockey fight - no other way to say it than I love to do it, its who I am"... Brian McGrattan

#193 martinezsvsu

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:23 AM

clarkson, horton or stand still for a year. the next free agent class will be much better.



#194 marcaractac

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:12 AM

First off, the cap hit recapture thing is complete garbage. It's the league's issue that they allowed those contracts, and now GM's following the rules are being penalized for finding loopholes int he league's shoddy system.

Secondly, you're bending numbers so out of proportion that I don't even know how to respond. Just because you average out numbers, and crunch them into different time periods doesn't mean you have the cap hits and salary right. Franzen would never make 7.1 million per year... ever. You can't just bend numbers from different players, because that's assuming every single player with similar production, and every GM in the league are the exact same. They're not. Each team is different too, by the way.

Franzen was signed to his current deal, because at the time, Holland was taking advantage of a loophole in the CBA. The bottom line is, at this very moment, Franzen's production is solid for the amount of cap hit and salary he is taking up. The cap recapture rule is horse s***. Had the league just dealt with this properly, Franzen's hit would be coming off the books, and it'd be a non-issue. It's not Franzen's fault, it's not Holland's fault... it's the NHL's mismanagement and backpedaling.

 This. If one wants to see what Franzens cap hit would be on a shorter term, knock off the 1 mil/year seasons at the end (years and salary) then average what's left. Would be 4.61 mil/year cap hit, not 7.1. That's just insane numbers to come up with. 



#195 dirtydangles

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:46 AM

clarkson, horton or stand still for a year. the next free agent class will be much better.

I'm not saying I want those guys - but thats what we said last year and then slowly but surely teams re-signed all their good ufa talent over the year and then its slim pickings. I'm waiting for our youth to break out - not holding my breath for ufas. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#196 Johnz96

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:47 AM

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Franzen's cap hit for the amount of goals he scores..fans will always want more..the issue for the Mule is that after he went nuts in the playoffs 2 years in a row our expectations of him went through the roof.  He's a 25-30 goal scorer and gets paid as such..he's never been a 40 goal scorer and never will be.  The formula you used comparing him to other guys is so strange....although contracts are paid out over a certain amount years the true essence of a good contract is to get the most out of a guy on a per year basis which is why all these long contracts that were created with the loophole take huge dives in the last few years.  Sign a guy for 10, hope he retires after 6 and if he doesn't hope he isn't in a wheel chair so you can get some value out of him.



Why would he ever play like Shanny? He was never compared to Shanny, he has never fought, never was a big hitter..I agree he should use his size more but you're making it sound like the guy should start doing things he was never supposed to or asked to do..makes 0 sense.  I want a Shanny type player too but it's not going to be Franzen and good luck finding one.

If Shanny were in his prime now, his cap hit would be almost double Franzen's



#197 number9

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:51 AM

Reality: no buy outs. No trades. Miller and white let go. All RFAs, brunner, and cleary re-signed. No additions unless Filppula walks.

#198 amato

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:42 AM

clarkson, horton or stand still for a year. the next free agent class will be much better.

 

 

sounds like a broken record every off season  :P


 


Edited by amato, 14 June 2013 - 10:43 AM.

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#199 martinezsvsu

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:45 PM

I'm not saying I want those guys - but thats what we said last year and then slowly but surely teams re-signed all their good ufa talent over the year and then its slim pickings. I'm waiting for our youth to break out - not holding my breath for ufas. 

i hear ya. andersson, nyquist, tatar and dekeyser. thats where its at.



#200 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:37 PM

http://www.freep.com...0059/1053/rss17

 

So it really comes down to money with Mr. Cleary it seems.  I'd share the whole article on here but don't know how.

 

SHOW ME THE MONEY!







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