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2013 Offseason Thread


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#141 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:03 PM

 

Nobody bashes Hossa.  I never said Franzen was "great".  I never said Franzen was a better player.  You're the only one that says things like a player "is great" or he "sucks".  And you brought up "the choice" during the Chicago series which wasn't exactly "a while" ago. 

 

It's impossible to discuss anything with someone who makes one gross exaggeration after the next and frequently puts words in people's mouths. 

 

Go ahead and show me where I brought up the Choice....I even said that I would not discuss it, and would never bring it up again if Franzen outscored Hossa or we beat Chicago...

 

So black and white stats are a gross exaggeration...ok.

 

Its obvious, your man love is too large to ever see Franzen for what he is...like I said, just keep on waiting for him to show up when it counts. Meanwhile I will just keep on bashing him when he fails the team again...I don't even have to ever bring up Hossa again to see how bad Franzen is...plenty of players out there who make Franzen money who are better...

 

This has Eva loves Hudler all over it....


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#142 FlashyG

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:10 PM

I said without Z and Dats, Franzen would be in the AHL or over in Sweden...so you think that without those two playoff Franzen even exists?  If you do, then I feel sorry for you.

 

My point is, people bash Hossa because he fails to show up when needed in the playoffs...but now that Franzen does the same thing, it's no big deal because he still leads the team in goals every year....You cannot have it both ways.  Call a spade a spade...Franzen mails it in when it counts.  He is becoming a consistent playoff no-show, the evidence is there.  I haven't pined for Hossa for a bit, as a matter of fact, in the Hossa thread I said that he would not be the answer we need to right our offensive woes.  I haven't brought up the debate in a while, but felt I needed to when you brought up the fact that Franzen leads the team in the regular season every year, so that makes him great.  Yet, when I pointed out that he has become a no show in the playoffs that didn't change your opinion, yet Hossa is not as good because of his playoff no show.

 

Which BTW, Hossa has more points this playoff than Franzen has the last 3...in 10 less games...Just maybe, maybe, Hossa is becoming a playoff beast... Just keep waiting for Playoff Franzen to show up, we'll leave the lights on for you...meanwhile enjoy the 25-29 goals he gives you in the regular season.  I know Franzen will be here and accept that, besides it gives me someone to blame for our loses and to bash when he gets 6 points or less in the playoffs...

 

I'm not sure why you keep trying to make this a Franzen vs Hossa debate. If you were originally arguing that Hossa is a better player than Franzen nobody would be taking issue with your stance at all.

 

Its your ridiculous assertion that Franzen isn't worthy of being in the NHL that people are correcting you on. Its as crazy as claiming he's the best player in the NHL. 

 

You can disregard his regular season production all you want but those with an ounce of objectivity can easily see that without Franzen's production this year the Wings wouldn't even have been in the playoffs. 



#143 kipwinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:11 PM

 

Go ahead and show me where I brought up the Choice....I even said that I would not discuss it, and would never bring it up again if Franzen outscored Hossa or we beat Chicago...

 

So black and white stats are a gross exaggeration...ok.

 

Its obvious, your man love is too large to ever see Franzen for what he is...like I said, just keep on waiting for him to show up when it counts. Meanwhile I will just keep on bashing him when he fails the team again...I don't even have to ever bring up Hossa again to see how bad Franzen is...plenty of players out there who make Franzen money who are better...

 

This has Eva loves Hudler all over it....

 

Good god.  When you post saying "I'll never bring it up again if Franzen outscores Hossa or if the Wings win", you're bringing it up.  Which you did, a few short weeks ago.  Again, I don't "love" hockey players.  I love my dog Oliver.  The fact that you keep saying it, along with your litany of additional name calling, doesn't make it so.  But I do appreciate the mature debate. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#144 FlashyG

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:16 PM

 
Go ahead and show me where I brought up the Choice....I even said that I would not discuss it, and would never bring it up again if Franzen outscored Hossa or we beat Chicago...
 
So black and white stats are a gross exaggeration...ok.
 
Its obvious, your man love is too large to ever see Franzen for what he is...like I said, just keep on waiting for him to show up when it counts. Meanwhile I will just keep on bashing him when he fails the team again...I don't even have to ever bring up Hossa again to see how bad Franzen is...plenty of players out there who make Franzen money who are better...
 
This has Eva loves Hudler all over it....

 
If anyone in this thread has an obsession with a player it's not kipwinger...LeftWinger Hates Franzen is a more fitting description
 
If you feel there are "plenty" of players out there who are better than Franzen making less money...feel free to list them. I assure you there are very very few, unless you count those on entry level contracts.

Edited by FlashyG, 10 June 2013 - 09:16 PM.


#145 WingedWheel91

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:31 PM


 Which BTW, Hossa has more points this playoff than Franzen has the last 3...in 10 less games...Just maybe, maybe, Hossa is becoming a playoff beast... Just keep waiting for Playoff Franzen to show up, we'll leave the lights on for you...meanwhile enjoy the 25-29 goals he gives you in the regular season.  I know Franzen will be here and accept that, besides it gives me someone to blame for our loses and to bash when he gets 6 points or less in the playoffs...[/quote]

In my opinion the debate here is rather simple...

Who is the better player? Hossa
Who is the better value? Franzen

When you consider the fact that Hossa's variance is also much higher as he is currently being paid $7.9 million in real dollars, Chicago is at a much higher cap risk moving forward. And by the way, since Hossa left Detroit his goal scoring numbers have been 24, 25, 29 and 17 (the same range you complained about Franzen being in annually) and he hasn't played a full season yet.

I guess my point is that although Franzen is painfully inconsistent and may have overachieved in his early years as a Wing, especially in the playoffs - you would stillmbe hard pressed to find a player signed long term at 3.9 million who is as productive.

#146 The Axe

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

Franzen is not a better value than Hossa. Thats absurd.

#147 kipwinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:36 PM

Franzen is not a better value than Hossa. Thats absurd.

 

Why?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#148 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:41 PM

I do hate Franzen, which is why I want him traded.  That is how all this started.

 

Kip said something to the effect that it would be stupid to trade the guy who leads our team in goals every year.  I then pointed out that he may do that, but is a no show in the playoffs.  Much like when the debate about Hossa and Franzen was hot.  The argument was, Hossa scores in the regular season and is a playoff no show, but Franzen is a playoff beast.  So now that Franzen has turned into a playoff no show, people refuse to talk bad about him, the same way they talked bad about Hossa.  I just called a slappy out is all.

 

I have no issue never comparing Franzen and Hossa again, I said that already when the 2nd round started.  The ONLY reason his name was mentioned was because of the playoff no show comparison... So the bottom line is, Franzen has become what nobody wanted Hossa here for, a playoff no show, but for some reason, Franzen gets a pass...That is fine.  I cannot convince people who like him otherwise, just like they cannot convince me...

 

I sure would rather have Dupuis, Burrows, Voracek, or Chris Stewart over Franzen.  All of which are in Franzen range of money...and earn it.



If Franzen scored 29 goals a season and kept that consistency up in the playoffs, I could give him a pass.  But ever since he signed his contract, he has become useless when it counts.


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#149 kipwinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:42 PM

I do hate Franzen, which is why I want him traded.  That is how all this started.

 

Kip said something to the effect that it would be stupid to trade the guy who leads our team in goals every year.  I then pointed out that he may do that, but is a no show in the playoffs.  Much like when the debate about Hossa and Franzen was hot.  The argument was, Hossa scores in the regular season and is a playoff no show, but Franzen is a playoff beast.  So now that Franzen has turned into a playoff no show, people refuse to talk bad about him, the same way they talked bad about Hossa.  I just called a slappy out is all.

 

I have no issue never comparing Franzen and Hossa again, I said that already when the 2nd round started.  The ONLY reason his name was mentioned was because of the playoff no show comparison... So the bottom line is, Franzen has become what nobody wanted Hossa here for, a playoff no show, but for some reason, Franzen gets a pass...That is fine.  I cannot convince people who like him otherwise, just like they cannot convince me...

 

I sure would rather have Dupuis, Burrows, Voracek, or Chris Stewart over Franzen.  All of which are in Franzen range of money...and earn it.

 

 

No I suggested it would be stupid to trade our leading scorer for Shawn Horcroff, which you had stated you'd be happy to do.  Please stop misquoting me in an attempt to justify yourself post hoc. 

 

Also, again with the name calling.  Isn't that supposed to be frowned upon around here (as well as in the better part of adult human society). 


Edited by kipwinger, 10 June 2013 - 09:43 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#150 Crymson

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:44 PM

I said without Z and Dats, Franzen would be in the AHL or over in Sweden...so you think that without those two playoff Franzen even exists?  If you do, then I feel sorry for you.

 

Yikes. There's an arbitrary declaration if I've ever heard one. Did Franzen do something to you?



#151 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:44 PM

 

Its your ridiculous assertion that Franzen isn't worthy of being in the NHL that people are correcting you on. Its as crazy as claiming he's the best player in the NHL. 

 

 

That goes back to someone saying that Dupuis - Crosby = average player.  I simply said it that is the case, then Franzen - Dats/Z = AHL player because Dats and Z made Franzen what he became in 08 and 09.  Without those two Playoff Franzen would have never existed. That is about as close to a guarantee as you can get...


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#152 The Axe

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

 
Why?


Hossa is a perennial 40 goal/80 point guy who is going to the Hockey Hall of Fame eventually. Franzen will not be remembered at all.

#153 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:48 PM

 

 

No I suggested it would be stupid to trade our leading scorer for Shawn Horcroff, which you had stated you'd be happy to do.  Please stop misquoting me in an attempt to justify yourself post hoc. 

 

Also, again with the name calling.  Isn't that supposed to be frowned upon around here (as well as in the better part of adult human society). 

 

Right, that is what I said. You said it would be stupid to do so.  I would trade him for Horcroff, I think he is a harder worker and earns his paycheck. 

 

A slappy is someone who refuses to see the bad in something no matter how obvious it is, which is what most Franzen fans do.   I will refrain from saying it anymore.



 

Yikes. There's an arbitrary declaration if I've ever heard one. Did Franzen do something to you?

 

Nah, he is just my whipping boy.  I like Franzen in the bottom 6...although our current bottom 6 probably outworks him too...so I just wish him gone.


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#154 The Axe

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:53 PM

 
Right, that is what I said. You said it would be stupid to do so.  I would trade him for Horcroff, I think he is a harder worker and earns his paycheck. 
 
A slappy is someone who refuses to see the bad in something no matter how obvious it is, which is what most Franzen fans do.   I will refrain from saying it anymore.


 
Nah, he is just my whipping boy.  I like Franzen in the bottom 6...although our current bottom 6 probably outworks him too...so I just wish him gone.


Franzen lost me this year. Bickell showed me what we could have. Instead, we have the My Little Pony. Doeant hit, doesnt fight, doesnt crash, doeant play defense. He'sgarbage now.

#155 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:59 PM

Franzen lost me this year. Bickell showed me what we could have. Instead, we have the My Little Pony. Doeant hit, doesnt fight, doesnt crash, doeant play defense. He'sgarbage now.

 

That is just it. Sure 28 goals is good for $3.9M, but there are plenty of guys out there who make less, who earn it more.  Franzen is just a mush melon who refuses to even follow up his rebounds, he shoots the puck and before it hits the net he his turning the other way.  He doesn't fight in the corners, he get pushed around in front of the net, he is the poorest replacement for Holmstrom that ANY team could come up with.  He led the team in the playoffs in +/-....in the minus column!  He may not be garbage, but he is declining rapidly and has shown that when it counts, he doesn't elevate his game...


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#156 kipwinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:00 PM

Hossa is a perennial 40 goal/80 point guy who is going to the Hockey Hall of Fame eventually. Franzen will not be remembered at all.

 

Well I wouldn't say "perennial" considering he hasn't done it in five years, and has scored 40 only 3 times in his 15 year career.  But I will agree that on average he scores more goals (slightly), but that still doesn't necessarily make him a better value.  Franzen scores almost as much at this stage of his career, blocks more shots, hits more, takes more faceoffs and wins at a high percentage, shoots as often, and plays as many minutes.  About the only thing Hossa does better (at this point in his career) is score slightly more and backcheck better.  If you think that's worth the additional money then ok, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you think. 


Edited by kipwinger, 10 June 2013 - 10:01 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#157 The Axe

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:02 PM

 
That is just it. Sure 28 goals is good for $3.9M, but there are plenty of guys out there who make less, who earn it more.  Franzen is just a mush melon who refuses to even follow up his rebounds, he shoots the puck and before it hits the net he his turning the other way.  He doesn't fight in the corners, he get pushed around in front of the net, he is the poorest replacement for Holmstrom that ANY team could come up with.  He led the team in the playoffs in +/-....in the minus column!  He may not be garbage, but he is declining rapidly and has shown that when it counts, he doesn't elevate his game...


Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

#158 kipwinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:04 PM

Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

 

Nobody said Franzen was great...ever.  Franzen is, however, our leading goal scorer just about every year and therefore shouldn't be traded for anyone like Shawn Horcroff.  Especially when you consider we've already got problems in the goal scoring department. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#159 The Axe

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:06 PM

 
Well I wouldn't say "perennial" considering he hasn't done it in five years, and has scored 40 only 3 times in his 15 year career.  But I will agree that on average he scores more goals (slightly), but that still doesn't necessarily make him a better value.  Franzen scores almost as much at this stage of his career, blocks more shots, hits more, takes more faceoffs and wins at a high percentage, shoots as often, and plays as many minutes.  About the only thing Hossa does better (at this point in his career) is score slightly more and backcheck better.  If you think that's worth the additional money then ok, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you think. 


Its night and day, bro. Hossa is fast and dangerous. By himself, and especially with a good centerman. Franzen is worthless by himself, and is only good when plaing with 2 other linemates who are good.

#160 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:06 PM

Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

 

One thing I do agree with the guys though, you aren't gonna get a 50 goal scorer for $3.9M (most years)  Franzen just failed to turn into the player Holland chose to sign for life..  His production dropped when it counts and now he is a shadow of Playoff Franzen. If that.  I would love nothing more than for Playoff Franzen to return, but it's been three season's since he has been here...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me three times, its time for you to go!


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