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2013 Offseason Thread


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#161 The Axe

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:08 PM

 
Nobody said Franzen was great...ever.  Franzen is, however, our leading goal scorer just about every year and therefore shouldn't be traded for anyone like Shawn Horcroff.  Especially when you consider we've already got problems in the goal scoring department. 


He doesnt play tough. The other teams dont fear playing against him. He needs to add that, or we are stuck witj a dud.

#162 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:15 PM

 

Nobody said Franzen was great...ever.  Franzen is, however, our leading goal scorer just about every year and therefore shouldn't be traded for anyone like Shawn Horcroff.  Especially when you consider we've already got problems in the goal scoring department. 

 

But that doesn't change the fact that we need change on this team, and no, not change just for the sake of change, but we need to change the makeup of this team to compete in the East.  For all of Franzen's size, he plays like 150lb. player.  I will be surprised if Franzen scores even 25 goals next season playing in the East.  There isn't too much available UFA this season, change must come via trade, and right now Franzen holds very high trade value. (if not for the length of his contract.)  I think Horcoff would fit in on this team great.  He may not replace Franzen's scoring, but he will out work him day in and day out...but I agree with you, Franzen is an overpayment, Horcoff is a bottom 6 guy.


Edited by LeftWinger, 10 June 2013 - 10:21 PM.

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#163 kipwinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:16 PM

Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

 

Hossa hasn't topped 29 since going to Chicago, and it's not like he's playing with garbage linemates.  At least three guys he plays with are perennial all-stars, and their remaining top sixers (Bickell, Stalberg, Saad) are at least as good as Filppula, Bert, Cleary, Abby, if not better.  So again, with all his natural ability and his superstar linemates why isn't he scoring at a much higher rate than Franzen?  I'll tell you why, because Franzen isn't as bad as you make him out to be and Hossa isn't as good. 


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#164 Crymson

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:30 PM

 

That is just it. Sure 28 goals is good for $3.9M, but there are plenty of guys out there who make less, who earn it more.  Franzen is just a mush melon who refuses to even follow up his rebounds, he shoots the puck and before it hits the net he his turning the other way.  He doesn't fight in the corners, he get pushed around in front of the net, he is the poorest replacement for Holmstrom that ANY team could come up with.  He led the team in the playoffs in +/-....in the minus column!  He may not be garbage, but he is declining rapidly and has shown that when it counts, he doesn't elevate his game...

 

Please do list for us those who regularly score 25-30 goals and 50-60 points, are paid equal to or less than $4m, are not on ELCs or RFA contracts, and are not in line for a big payday when their current contract expires.


Edited by Crymson, 10 June 2013 - 10:35 PM.


#165 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:36 PM

 

Hossa hasn't topped 29 since going to Chicago, and it's not like he's playing with garbage linemates.  At least three guys he plays with are perennial all-stars, and their remaining top sixers (Bickell, Stalberg, Saad) are at least as good as Filppula, Bert, Cleary, Abby, if not better.  So again, with all his natural ability and his superstar linemates why isn't he scoring at a much higher rate than Franzen?  I'll tell you why, because Franzen isn't as bad as you make him out to be and Hossa isn't as good. 

 

Not that I want to get back on the Hossa subject, but if had played full seasons since he has been there, the 29 goal campaign would have been his lowest total.

 

in 2010 he would have had 34 goals in 82 games, 2011 it would have been 31, 2012 was his 29 goals and if 2013 would have been a full season he would have been on pace for 34 again.  Franzen would have been 30, 30, 30 and 28. Similar numbers, so your point in value is taken and correct.  It just seems that Franzen is on the decline while Hossa, for lack of anything else, remains just as good as he has ever been.

 

Either way, I certainly hope for change this summer, we need hard working, hitting, not afraid to go into the corner type guys now.  The soft skilled players on this team have their days numbered...


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#166 The Axe

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:42 PM

 
Not that I want to get back on the Hossa subject, but if had played full seasons since he has been there, the 29 goal campaign would have been his lowest total.
 
in 2010 he would have had 34 goals in 82 games, 2011 it would have been 31, 2012 was his 29 goals and if 2013 would have been a full season he would have been on pace for 34 again.  Franzen would have been 30, 30, 30 and 28. Similar numbers, so your point in value is taken and correct.  It just seems that Franzen is on the decline while Hossa, for lack of anything else, remains just as good as he has ever been.
 
Either way, I certainly hope for change this summer, we need hard working, hitting, not afraid to go into the corner type guys now.  The soft skilled players on this team have their days numbered...


Agreed. Franzen is now Samuelsson part 2.

#167 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:47 PM

 

Please do list for us those who regularly score 25-30 goals and 50-60 points, are paid equal to or less than $4m, are not on ELCs or RFA contracts, and are not in line for a big payday when their current contract expires.

 

 

That would be impossible because not all GM's out there deemed it necessary to sign an average NHL player to a lifetime contract.  If he had gotten a 5 year deal, we'd be paying him $6M or more a season, is he worth that? The only reason his contract is valuable for his production is because of its length, 8 years from now, do you think he will still be scoring 30 goals? No.  Then how valuable will that contract look? Most players you want me to not list are on 4-5 year deals and since they are outplaying Franzen, will get a raise of course.

 

Franzen at $3.9M a season on a 5 year contract would have been awesome for his production (he would be 4 years into it already.)  But to be stuck with this long ass that he may not even finish, is a waste.


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#168 WingedWheel91

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:08 PM


Give me Nathan Horton and my concerns about Franzen diminish.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Horton
Filpulla - Zetterberg - Tatar
Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner
Eaves - Helm - Abdelkader

Emmerton, TooToo

I wanted to include the lineup because adding Horton provides us with something that Franzen is expected too, but doesn't - A player who plays his ass off, digs out loose pucks and isn't afraid to crash the net. With Datsyuks ability to hang on the puck and create, and Hortons ability to retrieve the puck and cause havoc in front, you allow Johan to play his game to find space and SHOOT the puck.

The second line is full of speed and puck possession, hopefully Tatar can score.

The Third line speaks for itself and will continue to grow.

The Fourth line is simply the best in hockey, assuming Helm returns.

#169 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:20 PM

Give me Nathan Horton and my concerns about Franzen diminish.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Horton
Filpulla - Zetterberg - Tatar
Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner
Eaves - Helm - Abdelkader

Emmerton, TooToo

I wanted to include the lineup because adding Horton provides us with something that Franzen is expected too, but doesn't - A player who plays his ass off, digs out loose pucks and isn't afraid to crash the net. With Datsyuks ability to hang on the puck and create, and Hortons ability to retrieve the puck and cause havoc in front, you allow Johan to play his game to find space and SHOOT the puck.

The second line is full of speed and puck possession, hopefully Tatar can score.

The Third line speaks for itself and will continue to grow.

The Fourth line is simply the best in hockey, assuming Helm returns.

 

I would be down with that, except re-signing Filppula.  I like this:

 

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Horton

Franzen - Helm - Tatar

Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner

Abdelkader - Emmerton - Tootoo

Eaves

 

You could even put Andersson, Brunner and Franzen on the 2nd line and have Nyquist with Helm and Tatar.  Of course we will see TONS of lineup changes throughout the season, that is for sure!


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#170 Crymson

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:32 PM

 

 

That would be impossible because not all GM's out there deemed it necessary to sign an average NHL player to a lifetime contract.  If he had gotten a 5 year deal, we'd be paying him $6M or more a season, is he worth that? The only reason his contract is valuable for his production is because of its length, 8 years from now, do you think he will still be scoring 30 goals? No.  Then how valuable will that contract look? Most players you want me to not list are on 4-5 year deals and since they are outplaying Franzen, will get a raise of course.

 

Franzen at $3.9M a season on a 5 year contract would have been awesome for his production (he would be 4 years into it already.)  But to be stuck with this long ass that he may not even finish, is a waste.

 

In other words, you can't do it, and your claim is thus nothing more than hot air.



#171 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:59 AM

 
In other words, you can't do it, and your claim is thus nothing more than hot air.


Ladd @ 4.4 million per
Stepan @ .875 million per

#172 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:19 AM

What is the likelihood that Tootoo is bought out? Wouldn't make any sense at all to me. I think Emdog goes before he does.
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#173 FlashyG

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:14 PM

I don't think Tootoo is eligible for a compliance buyout, I read you have to be making more than 3 million a season to have one used on you.

 

The Wings can only use them on Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Howard, Franzen, Kronwall, Quincey, Ericsson, and Samuelsson.

 

They could use a regular buyout on him, but he would cost us around 600k on the salary cap for 2 years, and around 700k for the next 2.



#174 FlashyG

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:19 PM

Ladd @ 4.4 million per
Stepan @ .875 million per

 

Ladd is also one of the best valued players out there, but he's only put up Franzen #'s twice in his career and he's already making more than him.

 

Stepan is on an entry level deal, hasn't matched Franzen #'s ever, and on top of that will likely get paid a bunch more this offseason. I don't think he'll end up with a contract as team friendly as Ladd or Franzen.



#175 Crymson

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:29 PM

Ladd @ 4.4 million per
Stepan @ .875 million per

 

I don't think you read what I wrote.



#176 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:58 PM

 

But that doesn't change the fact that we need change on this team, and no, not change just for the sake of change, but we need to change the makeup of this team to compete in the East.  For all of Franzen's size, he plays like 150lb. player.  I will be surprised if Franzen scores even 25 goals next season playing in the East.  There isn't too much available UFA this season, change must come via trade, and right now Franzen holds very high trade value. (if not for the length of his contract.)  I think Horcoff would fit in on this team great.  He may not replace Franzen's scoring, but he will out work him day in and day out...but I agree with you, Franzen is an overpayment, Horcoff is a bottom 6 guy.

Horcoff coming to the Wings would make me lose all faith in Holland and I would not watch the Wings until that useless sack of s*** was gone.  Miller is the Horcoff type of player, but I'd rather keep Miller if that were the case.  I think it's actually time for Miller to move on and free up space for Tatar (full time) and Callahan or Sheahan to play some games as call ups this year.  We have an abundance of talent in GR these days and don't require the bridge contracts anymore, especially with the cap projections handcuffing GM's at least for the next 5-6 years realistically.

 

 

Ladd is also one of the best valued players out there, but he's only put up Franzen #'s twice in his career and he's already making more than him.

 

Stepan is on an entry level deal, hasn't matched Franzen #'s ever, and on top of that will likely get paid a bunch more this offseason. I don't think he'll end up with a contract as team friendly as Ladd or Franzen.

I'd take Ladd any day over Franzen.  There's a reason teams won Cups with Ladd on the 3rd line twice.  Carolina and Chicago.  Ladd is one of the most competitive hockey players I've ever seen and that dates back to his Jr career on the Calgary Hitmen, then the WJHC.  There's a reason he's got a C on his jersey.  He leads by example as well as any captain in the NHL.  He deserves  every penny he makes cause he goes out there, competes and never takes a shift off.  Franzen has all the tools and doesn't use them. 


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#177 FlashyG

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:15 PM

 

I'd take Ladd any day over Franzen.  There's a reason teams won Cups with Ladd on the 3rd line twice.  Carolina and Chicago.  Ladd is one of the most competitive hockey players I've ever seen and that dates back to his Jr career on the Calgary Hitmen, then the WJHC.  There's a reason he's got a C on his jersey.  He leads by example as well as any captain in the NHL.  He deserves  every penny he makes cause he goes out there, competes and never takes a shift off.  Franzen has all the tools and doesn't use them. 

 

At his current cap hit I would too, which is why I said he's one of the best valued players in the league. I think he's in line for a big raise when his current contract is up though.



#178 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:17 PM

 

At his current cap hit I would too, which is why I said he's one of the best valued players in the league. I think he's in line for a big raise when his current contract is up though.

 

That is the problem in todays NHL...the lockouts were supposed to keep salaries down.  I love Ladd, loved him in Chicago, he ALWAYS played the Wings hard and always seemed to get points against them, and at $4.4M he is a great player, but unless he decides to stay in Winnipeg for less, he is going to get a big payday, probably get offers from dumbass GM's that will overpay him...ie Wisniewski....


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#179 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:25 PM

I tell you what, I am looking over the list of UFA's and I really don't see a #1 scorer on it...at least not one that I am interested in seeing here or one that won't cost $7M+.  A lot of you guys talk about Ryder, Horton, Clarkston, but their numbers aren't really sniper-esque and for the price they command, they may cost too much against our cap... I still like Dupuis, but agree he has had many average season's compared to his couple of good ones... I think our best bet is going to have to be a trade or sign someone who may get bought out...I am really looking for that one guy that will get on the wing of the #1 line and solve our lack of scoring issues...at least make our scoring more consistent...

 

...can we just fast forward through the Cup finals and get to the offseason already?


Edited by LeftWinger, 11 June 2013 - 02:27 PM.

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#180 GoWings1905

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:27 PM

 

Well I wouldn't say "perennial" considering he hasn't done it in five years, and has scored 40 only 3 times in his 15 year career.  But I will agree that on average he scores more goals (slightly), but that still doesn't necessarily make him a better value.  Franzen scores almost as much at this stage of his career, blocks more shots, hits more, takes more faceoffs and wins at a high percentage, shoots as often, and plays as many minutes.  About the only thing Hossa does better (at this point in his career) is score slightly more and backcheck better.  If you think that's worth the additional money then ok, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you think. 

 

I think you are selling Hossa way short with that analysis. If Marian Hossa isn't scoring goals, do you notice him on the ice? I would say absolutely yes. If Johan Franzen isn't scoring goals, he's useless. The faceoff part is largely irrelevant. Hossa has always been a winger, while the Red Wings attempted Franzen at center this past season and it failed because Franzen can't carry a line offensively nor does he skate hard enough to play the position. Hossa is far superior defensively and uses his speed/size to his advantage. Franzen did go to the net more with Holmstrom gone, but he was still invisible in the playoffs circling around the perimeter with Filppula. The one decided area that was in Franzen's favor for awhile was playoff performance and that's practically gone since Franzen hasn't produced in three years now there. 

 

No one has ever questioned Marian Hossa's work ethic and effort. That alone is worth the additional money, especially factoring in all the other areas which make Hossa more valuable. Franzen is still a decent value, but Hossa is a better one comparing the two. 

 

 


 
 
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