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What would you give up for Malkin?


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#81 GMRwings1983

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:11 AM

I don't know that there's much to disagree with me about the key situations thing. The Bylsma-got-shredded-for-having-Malkin-on-the-ice-late-in-that-game-against-the-Sens dealy is legit. It actually happened, and just a few weeks ago. And we're a team that prides ourselves on having special players who can do absolutely everything. Like play solid Team D.

 

Malkin can score like crazy. When he's not being smothered. He really doesn't understand Team D, he's goon-ish, and his face reminds me of Shrek.

 

EDIT: Then again, we do need a guy who can score like crazy. But at what cost?

 

I would gladly give up Datsyuk's two way game if he could score like Malkin can.  Datsyuk is too streaky offensively in the playoffs.  Hell, Gretzky and Lemieux weren't great two-way centers.  Did anyone care about that?  Hell no!  

 

Get a 3rd line that can play as a shut down line.  Then your star players won't look gassed having too much defensive responsibility.  


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#82 PuckY18

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:36 PM

Do not want.

 

Guy can't play defense, can't play in key nail-biting situations, can't handle smothering coverage (he just went pointless in a sweep loss with probably the best supporting cast you're going to see in this cap era. And we all remember what the Wings did to him way back when.) And I don't get the sense that he's a great team guy, though that may just be me. Still, ultimately, Do not want.

 

-He's underrated defensively; he's always getting back in the play torwards his zone.

-Any player of his caliber will fare well in "nail biting situations"; one instance where they got scored on does not prove your predisposition.

-You can literally say that about any top tier player in the NHL; just look at this season. Even Crosby gets s*** for not showing up past the 2nd round. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.  Malkin was the one who single-handedly took them through the ECF, then won the Conn Smythe.

 

Those are very vague assertions.  I'd say his biggest issue is giving up the puck from trying to force plays in the O zone, and trying to be too creative.  And a lot of the time he pulls it off.  That and he's a hot head which leads to him taking some questionable penalties.  But so does Crosby, and when he does: the guy has his back torwards him and it's behind the play.

 

Maybe it's just a thing from that environment, because I could never really see Bylsma reprimanding Crosby or Malkin.  He's a "players coach," running a contry club.  I remember when they were down in that philly series?? and he was laughing on the bench with Crosby.  I'm not saying the Wings need to get Malkin, but some of the things players are tagged with are so spurious and not fair.  He's a good player.

 

 

EDIT: I get the notion from fans that the only top tier good defensive forwards in the leauge are Z, Datsyuk, Toews, Bergeron, Kesler, Hossa, and maybe a few others; the rest are all liabilities.


Edited by PuckY18, 09 June 2013 - 01:06 PM.


#83 The Axe

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:43 PM

Would you give up Dats for Malkin?

#84 PuckY18

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

****


Edited by PuckY18, 09 June 2013 - 01:05 PM.


#85 GMRwings1983

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

Would you give up Dats for Malkin?

 

Of course.  Datsyuk is many years older and has hinted about playing in the KHL eventually.    

 

No such trade would ever happen straight up, of course, but I'd make that move if it did.  


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#86 Doc Holliday

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:36 PM

 

Only agree with you on the Datsyuk thing.  

 

But Malkin is a much better playoff performer throughout his career.  Who has a better playoff points per game than Malkin, since he came into the league?

 

How can you not agree with how awesome Gary Oldman is?


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#87 Johnz96

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

 

I would gladly give up Datsyuk's two way game if he could score like Malkin can.  Datsyuk is too streaky offensively in the playoffs.  Hell, Gretzky and Lemieux weren't great two-way centers.  Did anyone care about that?  Hell no!  

 

Get a 3rd line that can play as a shut down line.  Then your star players won't look gassed having too much defensive responsibility.  

I think the Pens would have had a better chance with Pav and Z instead of Crosby and Malkin.



#88 Nev

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:12 PM

 (he just went pointless in a sweep loss with probably the best supporting cast you're going to see in this cap era. 

 

And I remember what Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanny et al did when we choked against the Kings.  I remember what Yzerman, Shanny, Fedorov, Robitaill, Hull et al did when we got swept by the Ducks.  Does that mean they suck too?

 

And we all remember what the Wings did to him way back when.)

 

Yep, the much maligned Valterri Filpulla shut him down.  And the next season, Malkin was the difference when they won.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#89 paulwoodsfan

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

Get a 3rd line that can play as a shut down line.  Then your star players won't look gassed having too much defensive responsibility.  

 

1. You can control the matchups in only half the games. A shutdown third line doesn't do you any good on the road when the other coach can (and often, if not usually, does) get his own third line out against yours.

 

2. Do you really want your third line getting the most ice time of your forwards? That's what will happen if you match them up against the other team's first line (at home).

 

The matchup game has changed dramatically since the days when teams would put a Bugsy Watson out against a Bobby Hull. I don't think we will go back to third line-vs-first line (at home) any time soon. It would be nice if Z and D didn't have to expend a lot of energy checking the Toews line and the Kane line, for instance, but I don't see too many coaches resisting such head-to-head matchups. The real key, I think, is to get a third line that can outscore the other team's third line. When the Wings were up 3-1 against Chicago, it was in large part because Nyquist-Andersson-Brunner were outplaying the third-liners they were matched against. When Chicago came back, and also against L.A., a lot of it had to do with the scoring it was getting from Bickell, not the big guns.



#90 GMRwings1983

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:33 PM

I think the Pens would have had a better chance with Pav and Z instead of Crosby and Malkin.

 

I doubt it.  Pav and Z are past their primes and are only better than Malkin/Crosby as defensive forwards.  Offensively, it's not even close.  

 

The Pens needed goals from their stars and didn't get them, against a big and physical Boston team.  I don't know how Pavel and Z would have done better, not being big guys themselves.



 

1. You can control the matchups in only half the games. A shutdown third line doesn't do you any good on the road when the other coach can (and often, if not usually, does) get his own third line out against yours.

 

2. Do you really want your third line getting the most ice time of your forwards? That's what will happen if you match them up against the other team's first line (at home).

 

The matchup game has changed dramatically since the days when teams would put a Bugsy Watson out against a Bobby Hull. I don't think we will go back to third line-vs-first line (at home) any time soon. It would be nice if Z and D didn't have to expend a lot of energy checking the Toews line and the Kane line, for instance, but I don't see too many coaches resisting such head-to-head matchups. The real key, I think, is to get a third line that can outscore the other team's third line. When the Wings were up 3-1 against Chicago, it was in large part because Nyquist-Andersson-Brunner were outplaying the third-liners they were matched against. When Chicago came back, and also against L.A., a lot of it had to do with the scoring it was getting from Bickell, not the big guns.

 

That's true, but I remember Anaheim having a great checking line when they won the Cup in 2007.  We had a good checking line with Draper and Maltby as defensive stalwarts too.  



 

How can you not agree with how awesome Gary Oldman is?

 

Oh yeah.  Forgot that point.  


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#91 Dabura

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 05:38 PM

 

And I remember what Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanny et al did when we choked against the Kings.  I remember what Yzerman, Shanny, Fedorov, Robitaill, Hull et al did when we got swept by the Ducks.  Does that mean they suck too?

 

 

 

 

Yep, the much maligned Valterri Filpulla shut him down.  And the next season, Malkin was the difference when they won.

 

Calm down.

 

My point is, I want a guy who's not going to get shut down. And so do you. We all do. We're Wings fans - we know what it's like to see our high-powered, high-octane forwards get shut-the-eff-down. And it's not fun. Now, maybe if he were more responsible defensively (OMG IS HE REALLY PLAYING THAT CARD), I'd be more keen on selling the farm for him. (And we would have to sell the farm for him.)

 

He's generally a force to be reckoned with. I'm not denying that. I just feel like, for all the skill he has, there's a blueprint for shutting him down, and when he gets shut down, he's absolutely useless. If I'm selling my farm, I at least want a guy who can not only score like mad but play some real good defense as well. I think I'd like Dustin Brown or Ryan Callahan. They can score, they can hit, they can play D. And their faces don't remind me of Shrek.

 

OH MY GOD DID HE JUST SAY THAT


Edited by Dabura, 09 June 2013 - 05:40 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#92 RainingBlood

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:04 PM

I wouldnt do it for Nyquist. I would trade 2 1st round picks, smith, Tatar or Sheahan for Malkin. The only few untouchables out of the young players are Brunner(if he reups) andersson,Nyquist, DeKeyser , and maybe Emmerton. The rest are fair game.

#93 Dabura

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:08 PM

I wouldnt do it for Nyquist. I would trade 2 1st round picks, smith, Tatar or Sheahan for Malkin. The only few untouchables out of the young players are Brunner(if he reups) andersson,Nyquist, DeKeyser , and maybe Emmerton. The rest are fair game.

 

Emmerton? Untouchable? For serious?

 

Out of those, I'd say Nyquist and DeKeyser are pretty much untouchable. I could part with Brunner and Andersson. I'm not big on Smith. I think I'd like to keep Tatar, but I wouldn't weep if we lost him for something nice. Sheahan, eh.


Edited by Dabura, 09 June 2013 - 06:08 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#94 RainingBlood

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:15 PM

I said maybe Emmerton. I wouldnt part with any young player unless they get great value back.

#95 Richdg

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

 

Zetterberg and Datsyuk sacrifice scoring for defense and the team and have class. I would much rather have Datsyuk or Zetterberg on my team.

 

 

He could play much better defense than he does if he wanted to but he would have to sacrifice some scoring to do so.

5 years from now when Datsyuk and Z are retired, Malkin will still be puttig up 50 goals seasons. Yes I said seasons. Something Dat and Z have never done on there own. In many years Malkin outscores those 2 combined by himself.

For example, in 2011/12 Z and Dat scored 41 goals combined. Malkin scored 50. At 27 he is just entering his prime years. Whereas Z 34 and Dat 35 are past theirs.


Edited by Richdg, 09 June 2013 - 06:52 PM.


#96 Richdg

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

I wouldnt do it for Nyquist. I would trade 2 1st round picks, smith, Tatar or Sheahan for Malkin. The only few untouchables out of the young players are Brunner(if he reups) andersson,Nyquist, DeKeyser , and maybe Emmerton. The rest are fair game.

You are joking right? Nyquist, Anderson, and Emmerton? At best we get 30 goals from that group. The biggest positive about them is they are cheap.



#97 SaCkaveli20

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:54 PM

I said maybe Emmerton. I wouldnt part with any young player unless they get great value back.

 

You realize we're talking about Evgeni friggin Malkin right?

 

MAYBE Emmerton? Good god almighty....what is happening



#98 The Axe

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:59 PM

 
You realize we're talking about Evgeni friggin Malkin right?
 
MAYBE Emmerton? Good god almighty....what is happening



Ha ha. Youre right. Malkin for Emdog. Straight up. I mmmmmmmight do that.

#99 paulwoodsfan

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:22 PM

That's true, but I remember Anaheim having a great checking line when they won the Cup in 2007.  We had a good checking line with Draper and Maltby as defensive stalwarts too.  

Yes, but Draper/Maltby/McCarty (or Kocur) was quite a long time ago, when there was a somewhat different approach to line-matching. Even then, I think the only time that trio got on against the other team's top line was when Scotty won the matchup game either because he was at home or because the other coach wasn't as smart or as matchup-oriented. I don't think the Draper/Maltby line played many minutes against a No. 1 or No. 2 line in 2008.

 

It would be interesting to go back and see how Anaheim used its third line in 2007 but I seem to recall that they were noted primarily because of their PK and because these "defensive" guys gave their opponents fits in the offensive zone. I'd be surprised if they were able to consistently get them out against the top line for the other team. The Wings lost to Anaheim that year -- does anyone remember how the line matchups worked in that series?



#100 Ally

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:16 PM

I like people acting like picking up a superstar basically guarantees us a cup.
On paper the Pens were basically an all star team and they still got swept.

 
"Everything he does is exciting to watch.” -Holmstrom describes Datsyuk






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