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Cap might be worse than expected.


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#21 Mors

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:55 AM

I'll say right now that the idea of buying out Tootoo is completely unrealistic. Aside from the minimal cap impact, even if he doesn't play in the playoffs, there's a reason why Holland signed him to a 3 year deal. This team needs grit just to survive the regular season, and they're going into a new conference with some heavy hitters.

 

Sammuelsson is the most realistic candidate, especially considering his string of non-critical injuries that still managed to keep him out the lineup.



#22 uk_redwing

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:58 AM

With that I am done with this site for another year.

 

No one cares.

 

On the subject of Tootoo, not much to hate about him or anything that screams possible buyout. I was disappointed that MLive article even listed his name as a possibility. One of the leagues best pound-for-pound fighters, although he had a poor fighting year last season, and put up 8 points (the same as Emmerton and Miller) in 42 games (less games than Emmerton and Miller) on very limited minutes (about a third less than Emmerton and Miller).

 

Hopefully that's the last of that.


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#23 puckbags

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:01 AM

 

but you said high end realistic cap numbers....there is nothing realistic about Nyquist getting $3M....high end realistic for Nyquist is $2M.  None of those numbers are realistic high end or not... High end none of them top $2M, Brunner MIGHT get $3M.... not very realistic, but you didn't have to take your ball and go home...geez, man up.

 

Can you imagine if every time a member on this forum left because someone didnt like their point of view...There would only be like 2 people left here.  


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#24 Crymson

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:10 AM

Ericsson, Ericsson anybody.....

 

Ericsson is a 6'5", mobile defenseman with a lot of potential. He would have been snapped up in a second on the UFA market. Kindl is still an unknown quantity.



#25 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:30 AM

 
Can you imagine if every time a member on this forum left because someone didnt like their point of view...There would only be like 2 people left here.  


I would have lasted one post.

#26 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:03 PM

Can you imagine if every time a member on this forum left because someone didnt like their point of view...There would only be like 2 people left here.

While I agree that storming off is an overreaction, I completely understand majsheppard's frustration.

He took the time to create a topic worthy of discussion and put some thought into it. More often than not these days, posts and threads are met with immediate derision, as was his.

Here's the thing. While I think everyone should put some thought into what they post, it's ultimately a discussion forum, not an article or essay, so every piece of information may not be thoroughly researched and a person's opinion may still be evolving. That's the whole point of this place. Discussion. People should be able to express a thoughtful opinion without being insulted or attacked for it. And even have the opportunity for their opinion to be enhanced or changed by discussion with other hockey fans here.

But these days if you don't have every one of your sentences vetted by a team of hockey experts and lawyers, a lot of responses will only mock and insult your point before you even have the opportunity to fully explain it. It's no wonder so many good members don't post anymore. Why bother when it's likely your contribution will be met with derision?

And as you guys know, you're the ones generating all content here. This site is only as good as the contributions you all make. LetsGoWings needs people to make thoughtful threads and posts a lot more than it needs people to crap all over them.

I guess my point is that I wish that more often people's first response to a post was to discuss it rather than trying to win a battle or prove some superiority.

We're all Wings fans here after all.

#27 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:13 PM

In defence of MajSheppard, comments were made where it seemed like guys read a few lines and commented back without reading jack-f***-all.  I agree with the sentiment that Goose, Smith and Brunner won't make as much as projected in the OP and Kindl may be around 2.5-2.8, but I'm also not gonna be a condescending **** about it.  The OP was well constructed and written and aside from some indlated salaries, give the guy some credit for a well thought out post.  The main idea is that without buying out Sammy, which is the most realistic option and letting a couple guys walk like Flip and such, we won't even be in talks with guys like Horton, Clarkson, Ryder or even Bickell.  And there's not many roster spots left and we want Tatar up and Jurco may be fighting for someone's spot soon too by the looks of it.  Personally, I'd let Flip go, try to sign Horton and go to town with some quality GR boys.


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#28 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:31 PM

While I agree that storming off is an overreaction, I completely understand majsheppard's frustration.

He took the time to create a topic worthy of discussion and put some thought into it. More often than not these days, posts and threads are met with immediate derision, as was his.

Here's the thing. While I think everyone should put some thought into what they post, it's ultimately a discussion forum, not an article or essay, so every piece of information may not be thoroughly researched and a person's opinion may still be evolving. That's the whole point of this place. Discussion. People should be able to express a thoughtful opinion without being insulted or attacked for it. And even have the opportunity for their opinion to be enhanced or changed by discussion with other hockey fans here.

But these days if you don't have every one of your sentences vetted by a team of hockey experts and lawyers, a lot of responses will only mock and insult your point before you even have the opportunity to fully explain it. It's no wonder so many good members don't post anymore. Why bother when it's likely your contribution will be met with derision?

And as you guys know, you're the ones generating all content here. This site is only as good as the contributions you all make. LetsGoWings needs people to make thoughtful threads and posts a lot more than it needs people to crap all over them.

I guess my point is that I wish that more often people's first response to a post was to discuss it rather than trying to win a battle or prove some superiority.

We're all Wings fans here after all.


Agreed, but the poster should also look to see if there is another thread just like it before he starts his, right? I created the cap geek thread to consolidate all the potential line-up vs payroll ideas, because it seems every thread on here gets hijacked by someone (including me sometimes) posting a line-up and if it would work. That was my only beef. Im all for open discussions without abuse.

#29 stillwater

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:39 PM

While I agree that storming off is an overreaction, I completely understand majsheppard's frustration.

He took the time to create a topic worthy of discussion and put some thought into it. More often than not these days, posts and threads are met with immediate derision, as was his.

Here's the thing. While I think everyone should put some thought into what they post, it's ultimately a discussion forum, not an article or essay, so every piece of information may not be thoroughly researched and a person's opinion may still be evolving. That's the whole point of this place. Discussion. People should be able to express a thoughtful opinion without being insulted or attacked for it. And even have the opportunity for their opinion to be enhanced or changed by discussion with other hockey fans here.

But these days if you don't have every one of your sentences vetted by a team of hockey experts and lawyers, a lot of responses will only mock and insult your point before you even have the opportunity to fully explain it. It's no wonder so many good members don't post anymore. Why bother when it's likely your contribution will be met with derision?

And as you guys know, you're the ones generating all content here. This site is only as good as the contributions you all make. LetsGoWings needs people to make thoughtful threads and posts a lot more than it needs people to crap all over them.

I guess my point is that I wish that more often people's first response to a post was to discuss it rather than trying to win a battle or prove some superiority.

We're all Wings fans here after all.

 

Are we allowed to articulate opinions on this post, or will they be deleted?

 

I have nothing damning to say, but I think you know that as a Moderator, if you post something like that on the main board, it will elicit responses.



#30 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

In defence of MajSheppard, comments were made where it seemed like guys read a few lines and commented back without reading jack-f***-all.  I agree with the sentiment that Goose, Smith and Brunner won't make as much as projected in the OP and Kindl may be around 2.5-2.8, but I'm also not gonna be a condescending **** about it.  The OP was well constructed and written and aside from some indlated salaries, give the guy some credit for a well thought out post.  The main idea is that without buying out Sammy, which is the most realistic option and letting a couple guys walk like Flip and such, we won't even be in talks with guys like Horton, Clarkson, Ryder or even Bickell.  And there's not many roster spots left and we want Tatar up and Jurco may be fighting for someone's spot soon too by the looks of it.  Personally, I'd let Flip go, try to sign Horton and go to town with some quality GR boys.

 

I did read the post and he said that these are high end realistic raises...they are not.  If he would have just said high-end salaries, he wouldn't have gotten any negative feedback, at least not from me, but his entire post, while an informative and nice read, was based on his notion that the cap may be worse for us than once thought, and he based that on unrealistic raises for our UFA/RFA's...

 

anyhow, I did not know about the sub-$3M buyout rule, that is unfortunate, that means we are stuck with Bertuzzi taking up a valuable roster spot.  I am not worried about his cap hit, it's the roster spot I covet.  Why I certainly hope Sammy gets the buyout, nobody else seems to be a candidate for the buyout.  I can't see Holland using one on a defender, there isn't really anyone who is that ready to step in and take that spot unless he plans on acquiring someone via trade as a top 2 guy...anything can happen, but I if he were to want to get rid of Big E or Q, they would be very tradable assets, at least for a nice draft pick...

 

So if a buyout is used, I guess we will be looking at Sammy in order to open a roster spot up.  Let Fil and Cleary walk then go with the kids...

 

...and in all honesty, if Fil walks, I am betting he becomes a Duck.  Especially if Selanne signs one more season. Just a hunch.


Edited by LeftWinger, 11 June 2013 - 02:48 PM.

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#31 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:50 PM

 
I did read the post and he said that these are high end realistic raises...they are not.  If he would have just said high-end salaries, he wouldn't have gotten any negative feedback, at least not from me, but his entire post, while an informative and nice read, was based on his notion that the cap may be worse for us than once thought, and he based that on unrealistic raises for our UFA/RFA's...
 
anyhow, I did not know about the sub-$3M buyout rule, that is unfortunate, that means we are stuck with Bertuzzi taking up a valuable roster spot.  I am not worried about his cap hit, it's the roster spot I covet.  Why I certainly hope Sammy gets the buyout, nobody else seems to be a candidate for the buyout.  I can't see Holland using one on a defender, there isn't really anyone who is that ready to step in and take that spot unless he plans on acquiring someone via trade as a top 2 guy...anything can happen, but I if he were to want to get rid of Big E or Q, they would be very tradable assets, at least for a nice draft pick...
 
So if a buyout is used, I guess we will be looking at Sammy in order to open a roster spot up.  Let Fil and Cleary walk then go with the kids...
 
...and in all honesty, if Fil walks, I am betting he becomes a Duck.  Especially if Selanne signs one more season. Just a hunch.


Go onto cap geek and just punch in normal buyouts for bert and tootoo. Everything works fine, still.

#32 Jesusberg

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

 

if Kindl gets an Ericsson type contract, I will seriously question Holland.  That money is needed elsewhere....scoring.

 

Kindl's an offensive defender. I'm not saying he deserves that money, I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he got more than Nyquist, Smith and Andersson. I think Kindl will be a rock on that 2nd PP unit, and perhaps even jump to the 1st with Kronwall.

The situations between he and Ericsson prior to his contract signing are fairly similar. The key difference is that Ericsson brought something (a shut-down role) that others on the team couldn't, while you could argue that Kronwall, Smith and to a lesser extent, DeKeyser are all capable of of putting up some numbers. So as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if he got around 2.5 or so or on a faith-based deal.


Edited by Jesusberg, 11 June 2013 - 03:02 PM.


#33 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:13 PM

 
Kindl's an offensive defender. I'm not saying he deserves that money, I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he got more than Nyquist, Smith and Andersson. I think Kindl will be a rock on that 2nd PP unit, and perhaps even jump to the 1st with Kronwall.

The situations between he and Ericsson prior to his contract signing are fairly similar. The key difference is that Ericsson brought something (a shut-down role) that others on the team couldn't, while you could argue that Kronwall, Smith and to a lesser extent, DeKeyser are all capable of of putting up some numbers. So as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if he got around 2.5 or so or on a faith-based deal.


Great post. 2.5/2.5/2.75/3/3 sounds about right.

#34 evilmrt

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:14 PM

Anyone can be bought out the 3 million was just for this year because it buy outs wernt suppose to start til the end of the year but the NHL didn't want gomez/redden buried in the minors.

 

So you're saying that the 3 mil rule will expire when the offseason officially starts on July 5th? 



#35 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:15 PM

 

Kindl's an offensive defender. I'm not saying he deserves that money, I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he got more than Nyquist, Smith and Andersson. I think Kindl will be a rock on that 2nd PP unit, and perhaps even jump to the 1st with Kronwall.

The situations between he and Ericsson prior to his contract signing are fairly similar. The key difference is that Ericsson brought something (a shut-down role) that others on the team couldn't, while you could argue that Kronwall, Smith and to a lesser extent, DeKeyser are all capable of of putting up some numbers. So as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if he got around 2.5 or so or on a faith-based deal.

 

I agree, he will definitely get more than those three...$2.5M would be high end for sure...


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#36 evilmrt

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

 

Can you imagine if every time a member on this forum left because someone didnt like their point of view...There would only be like 2 people left here.  

 

True! But, I can't help wondering if the atmosphere here had something to do with a lot of the old mainstays disappearing in the last few years on LGW. 



#37 The Axe

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:25 PM

 
True! But, I can't help wondering if the atmosphere here had something to do with a lot of the old mainstays disappearing in the last few years on LGW. 


The negativity during the playoffs is a little lame, but I like the atmosphere otherwise.

Are we all cool on the cap now. I learned a few things.

#38 Jesusberg

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:34 PM

 

I agree, he will definitely get more than those three...$2.5M would be high end for sure...

I think when you factor in that Ericsson got 3.25 million, it was definitely a faith-based deal. The brass, imo, looked at him as Stuart's eventual replacement. Every thing about his numbers prior that contract suggested that he was our #5 defender. Clearly, management felt he could handle a top four role, going forward.

With Kindl, he was 3rd in the time in total TOI, 2nd in PP time per game and lead the team with +15. The factors knocking his price tag down are his RFA status, the various other offensively inclined defenders on the team and having some other solid prospects coming down the pipeline who play a similar style. While it may disappoint a few people around here, somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 would not shock me.

 



#39 wingsfan4795

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:37 PM

The thing about these "bridge deals" as folks like to call them, the ones worth 2.5-3.5 million, is that they're given out by Wings brass after a guy has proven he can play a few season in Detroit, or at least that he can contribute. Zetterberg, Filppula and Kronwall were given their 2.65, 3 and 3 million dollar deals in response to showing they're capable, or even a few 40 point seasons for the forwards I mentioned.

Brunner may be seen in a different light, but guys like Nyquist, Smith and Kindl aren't really in the same situation as other players given those "bridge deals". I imagine those guys will probably get 2-3 year deals, maybe in the area of 1.2-2.2 or so. Then go on to earn something, should they deserve it.

Exactly. We all know that nyquist has the potential to be a serious threat, but until he proves himself he won't get big money

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#40 Nev

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

The negativity during the playoffs is a little lame, but I like the atmosphere otherwise.

 

 

Are you kidding?  The tone of this place went up 1000% when we got in the playoffs and started winning a couple of games.  Sure you get those who predict we're going to lose the series after we lose 1 game, but we get that every post-season.  Hell, this board was in meltdown when Dallas won game 4 in 2008 to bring it back to 3-1!


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