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#61 beachwing

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:18 PM

If he focused more on offense who knows what he could pot BUT he understands his role perfectly....exactly what You want from a player.

He will be a steal next year at his cap hit.

#62 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

 
We're the softest team with him too.  
 
People need to stop pretending like our 4th liners are somehow more talented than gritty players who fight.  This isn't the 2002 Wings.   Our 4th line was a joke most of the season.  That's why Babcock had Sammy playing center on the 4th line at one point in the playoffs.  Too many throwaway players there.  

I just don't understand how people call for Tootoo to get bought out, then advocate for Emmerton on the 4th line. Tootoo is far more valuable than Emmerton. I don't mind guys like Miller and Eaves, but you're right, they're not the best 4th liners out there.
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#63 newfy

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:58 PM

How long ago did Tony Twist and Stu Grimson play? 

 

Tootoo isn't a fighter.  He's an agitator.  He doesn't hit enough, he doesn't drop the gloves very often, he doesn't stick up for his team mates, he's not big enough to scare anyone.  If he had done what he was brought here to do, he would have been in the lineup in the playoffs. 

 

As I mentioned before, the Preds invested a ton of time and money into Tootoo when he was going through his alcohol and other problems.  Why would they let him walk away for nothing, and let him sit during the playoffs also? 

 

 

LOL.  Brad May and Aaron Downey?  If you are upset that either of those two didn't earn a spot, really, what more can be said.

 

I keep hearing he's not one dimensional, but what else does he do besides drop the gloves on the opening faceoff to settle a personal score? 

 

The Wings don't have "big grinding forwards that can drop the gloves" any more or less than any other team does.  Because in this century, guys who are big, can hit and contribute at both ends of the ice aren't exactly a dime a dozen.  Anyone who's physical, like Abdelkader and can contribute other things, don't fight as often because they're too valuable to be sitting in the box.

Youre out to lunch, hes not one dimensional because he scored at the same rate as any other fourth liner on the team this season while getting used to a new team, fighting and being one of the hardest hitters in the NHL. How does a guy who is so one dimensional put up 30 points a year ago playing the fourth line? You saying he doesnt hit enough or stick up for teammates is actually laughable. I dont think hes some offensive juggernaught but he probably is a bit above average for a fourth liner, and especially for one that hits and fights like him. You also say he doesnt fight enough.. what? He fought 8 times this year, on pace for roughly 15 in a full season, who was the last wing with that many fights in a single year? Not big enough to really deter enforcers I agree with, but I guarantee you the average NHLer is more scared playing a shift against Tootoo than they are against John Scott. Theres plenty of huge hits Tootoo had this year that youre blind to, probably because hes a player who fights.

 

 

After reading this it's crystal clear someone is as big a Tootoo fan as possible

 

I'd rather get a guy like Prust OR a real enforcer plus a solid fourth line guy, but to each their own.

 

Are you saying you would rather have Prust like hes more intimidating than Tootoo out there? Or because hes a better player? I would rather have Tootoo at his cap hit considering hes just as good of a fighter, hits harder and is cheaper. Find a video of Prust throwing a hit like this


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#64 The Axe

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 09:01 PM

Tootoo got sat. He's our 14th forward. Nothing more.

#65 The Secret

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:15 AM

How long ago did Tony Twist and Stu Grimson play? 

 

Tootoo isn't a fighter.  He's an agitator.  He doesn't hit enough, he doesn't drop the gloves very often, he doesn't stick up for his team mates, he's not big enough to scare anyone.  If he had done what he was brought here to do, he would have been in the lineup in the playoffs. 

 

As I mentioned before, the Preds invested a ton of time and money into Tootoo when he was going through his alcohol and other problems.  Why would they let him walk away for nothing, and let him sit during the playoffs also? 

 

This has to be a joke, right? Tootoo is a very BIG little man and he fought and stuck up for his team mates more than any other player on the team. Not big enough to scare anyone? I don't know about that when the guy backs down from NO-ONE and he hold his own against guy much taller and heavier players.

 

Check out his score card again: http://dropyourglove...r=5636&League=1



#66 StormJH1

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:28 AM

For some reason, some people consider Tootoo "one-dimensional" just because he fights. His offensive capabilities are overlooked or blatantly ignored by some on here.

I don't see why we can't have Miller AND Tootoo on the 4th line. I've grown to like Miller. Emmerton is the weak link and should be shipped out, in my opinion.

As I've said before, we're the softest team in the league without Tootoo.

 

That's a straw man argument.  First, there were long stretches of this year where Miller was terrible.  He played better in the Playoffs, but entering the season, people forget that it was Miller, not Abdelkader, that most people would've identified as the "banger" more likely to get run with Top 6 forwards.  Oh, and we just resigned Miller for about 2/3 of what Tootoo's cap hit is also.  Maybe that doesn't matter to some people, but it matters to me, and it matters to the front office.

 

You talk about the "softness of the team" as if it's directly correlated to how "hard" or "soft" Tootoo is.  An "agitator", as opposed to a "power forward", does not make your team "tougher".  He's basically there for no other reason than to try and disrupt the focus of the other team.  That can have a place in the game if that's an overall part of what your team does.  Matt Cooke does that sort of stuff.  Brad Marchand does too, but just happens to bring a great deal more skill to the table as well.  But the post-lockout Wings are not a team that uses gratuitous hits and fights to generate momentum.  They're a puck possession skill team that has a very specific gameplan.  Throwing a guy on the 4th line that runs people and starts crap is "interesting", but it's also horribly out of place on this team. 

 

People said the Wings teams of the mid-90's were soft, too, but it wasn't Stu Grimson and Joey Kocur who were responsible for turning that around.  It was a power forward like Shanahan playing 20 minutes a night and playing physical in the corners.  It was Darren McCarty playing significant minutes with Yzerman, or on the Grind Line.  And, this year, the emergence of Abdelkader allowed us to elevate to a Playoff style of play.  4th line bit players cannot change the underlying character of a team...that just doesn't happen.



#67 martinezsvsu

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:13 PM

playing big is more important than being big



#68 newfy

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

 

That's a straw man argument.  First, there were long stretches of this year where Miller was terrible.  He played better in the Playoffs, but entering the season, people forget that it was Miller, not Abdelkader, that most people would've identified as the "banger" more likely to get run with Top 6 forwards.  Oh, and we just resigned Miller for about 2/3 of what Tootoo's cap hit is also.  Maybe that doesn't matter to some people, but it matters to me, and it matters to the front office.

 

You talk about the "softness of the team" as if it's directly correlated to how "hard" or "soft" Tootoo is.  An "agitator", as opposed to a "power forward", does not make your team "tougher".  He's basically there for no other reason than to try and disrupt the focus of the other team.  That can have a place in the game if that's an overall part of what your team does.  Matt Cooke does that sort of stuff.  Brad Marchand does too, but just happens to bring a great deal more skill to the table as well.  But the post-lockout Wings are not a team that uses gratuitous hits and fights to generate momentum.  They're a puck possession skill team that has a very specific gameplan.  Throwing a guy on the 4th line that runs people and starts crap is "interesting", but it's also horribly out of place on this team. 

 

People said the Wings teams of the mid-90's were soft, too, but it wasn't Stu Grimson and Joey Kocur who were responsible for turning that around.  It was a power forward like Shanahan playing 20 minutes a night and playing physical in the corners.  It was Darren McCarty playing significant minutes with Yzerman, or on the Grind Line.  And, this year, the emergence of Abdelkader allowed us to elevate to a Playoff style of play.  4th line bit players cannot change the underlying character of a team...that just doesn't happen.

Youre kidding right? An agitator who happened to be voted the second hardest hitter by the actual NHL players doesnt make the team tougher to play against? Having a willing and high end middle weight fighter in the line up in case hes needed doesnt make the team tougher? Youre full of it. Tootoo must get noticed by other teams players if the players vote him the second hardest hitter in the league, you dont think some dmen voted in that and having him bearing down on them leaves them a little more uncomfortable back there?

 

Cant wait for tougher players to start making it to the wings since theyve bee drafting this way lately. It will really clear out a lot of the band wagon fans who jumped on for the flashy european style of play. The wings arent good enough for that to work anymore, and it wasnt all that effective this year. Theres a shift coming so get used to it, its not like the wings were forced to sign Tootoo. Management decided it was in the best interests of the team for the direction theyre heading

 

I also dont think anyone would identift Miller as a banger or their definition is pretty far off from reality. Solid player, Tootoo, Abby and Helm are the only guys that should be called that though


Edited by newfy, 18 June 2013 - 04:02 PM.

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#69 Opie

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:20 PM

Admittedly I am not the biggest Tootoo fan, nor did I like the Wings signing him.

Having said that:

 

There is no way he gets inserted into this line up with any regularity unless Miller and  Eaves are both hurt.

 

Those two are two of the better pkers on this team and play a very responsible game for the Wings.

 

The fourth line next year has 4 guys ahead of toots with a healthy Helm back, and that is without the Wings signing a Free Agent to move Abby down the roster.

 

This is with me assuming Bert and Sammy are gone next season, if they are here Toots will have an even harder time cracking the roster.

 

I enjoyed seeing Toots out there swinging for the fences, but he took himself out of the play too often!


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#70 StormJH1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:06 PM

Youre kidding right? An agitator who happened to be voted the second hardest hitter by the actual NHL players doesnt make the team tougher to play against? Having a willing and high end middle weight fighter in the line up in case hes needed doesnt make the team tougher? Youre full of it. Tootoo must get noticed by other teams players if the players vote him the second hardest hitter in the league, you dont think some dmen voted in that and having him bearing down on them leaves them a little more uncomfortable back there?

 

Cant wait for tougher players to start making it to the wings since theyve bee drafting this way lately. It will really clear out a lot of the band wagon fans who jumped on for the flashy european style of play. The wings arent good enough for that to work anymore, and it wasnt all that effective this year. Theres a shift coming so get used to it, its not like the wings were forced to sign Tootoo. Management decided it was in the best interests of the team for the direction theyre heading

So I take it, then, that you must think Mike Babcock is a terrible head coach right now, right?  After all, Babcock scratched Tootoo every game of the Chicago series, and we fell one overtime goal short of knocking off the best team in the NHL up to that point.  If only Jordin Tootoo had been there, with his considerable skill, and spirit-crushing behind-the-play body checks.

 

You are possibly the first person I have ever heard say that the Wings have bandwagon fans who are only here for that European style of play.  You're probably right.  It's only the hardest of hardcore fans that can appreciate things like Fight Night at the Joe, or good Canadian boys like Yzerman and Shanahan winning multiple Stanley Cups.  Yep, attendance and fan interest definitely spiked as this team became more European and less inclined to fight.

 

I think Opie's comment above this one is a good, measured analysis of Tootoo.  Even if you happen to like elements of what Tootoo does, you can't focus narrowly on that without acknowledging what Tootoo doesn't do.  He can't kill penalties, he's not affordable relative to his contribution, and he can't contribute any meaningful offense.  Anyone happen to see Akim Aliu's 5-game stint with Calgary this year? (14 PIM).  You can pay some AHL'er $700k to start jumping into checks and trying to murder people all over the ice.  That isn't really a "specialized" commodity the Wings needed to pay for.


Edited by StormJH1, 21 June 2013 - 04:07 PM.


#71 Johnz96

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:38 PM

 

That's a straw man argument.  First, there were long stretches of this year where Miller was terrible.  He played better in the Playoffs, but entering the season, people forget that it was Miller, not Abdelkader, that most people would've identified as the "banger" more likely to get run with Top 6 forwards.  Oh, and we just resigned Miller for about 2/3 of what Tootoo's cap hit is also.  Maybe that doesn't matter to some people, but it matters to me, and it matters to the front office.

 

You talk about the "softness of the team" as if it's directly correlated to how "hard" or "soft" Tootoo is.  An "agitator", as opposed to a "power forward", does not make your team "tougher".  He's basically there for no other reason than to try and disrupt the focus of the other team.  That can have a place in the game if that's an overall part of what your team does.  Matt Cooke does that sort of stuff.  Brad Marchand does too, but just happens to bring a great deal more skill to the table as well.  But the post-lockout Wings are not a team that uses gratuitous hits and fights to generate momentum.  They're a puck possession skill team that has a very specific gameplan.  Throwing a guy on the 4th line that runs people and starts crap is "interesting", but it's also horribly out of place on this team. 

 

People said the Wings teams of the mid-90's were soft, too, but it wasn't Stu Grimson and Joey Kocur who were responsible for turning that around.  It was a power forward like Shanahan playing 20 minutes a night and playing physical in the corners.  It was Darren McCarty playing significant minutes with Yzerman, or on the Grind Line.  And, this year, the emergence of Abdelkader allowed us to elevate to a Playoff style of play.  4th line bit players cannot change the underlying character of a team...that just doesn't happen.

Miller a banger???



#72 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:01 PM

 

 

Youre out to lunch, hes not one dimensional because he scored at the same rate as any other fourth liner on the team this season while getting used to a new team, fighting and being one of the hardest hitters in the NHL. How does a guy who is so one dimensional put up 30 points a year ago playing the fourth line? You saying he doesnt hit enough or stick up for teammates is actually laughable. I dont think hes some offensive juggernaught but he probably is a bit above average for a fourth liner, and especially for one that hits and fights like him. You also say he doesnt fight enough.. what? He fought 8 times this year, on pace for roughly 15 in a full season, who was the last wing with that many fights in a single year? Not big enough to really deter enforcers I agree with, but I guarantee you the average NHLer is more scared playing a shift against Tootoo than they are against John Scott. Theres plenty of huge hits Tootoo had this year that youre blind to, probably because hes a player who fights.

 

 

Are you saying you would rather have Prust like hes more intimidating than Tootoo out there? Or because hes a better player? I would rather have Tootoo at his cap hit considering hes just as good of a fighter, hits harder and is cheaper. Find a video of Prust throwing a hit like this

I agree. Tootoo brings energy, toughness, and good offensive skills for a career fourth-liner. The Wings fourth line isn't out there to play puck possession, they are there to cycle, to hit, and to wear down the other team. Tootoo can do those things well.

 

Does anyone here not want to see Miller-Andersson-Tootoo start the season as the fourth line next year (for rosters within reason)?



#73 Marty Barry

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:16 PM

 

Tootoo got sat. He's our 14th forward. Nothing more.

 

Sounds like end of story. End of thread. LOL.

#74 joesuffP

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

He just can't play hockey well enough as our 4th line. We wouldn't have gotten anywhere against Chicago unless our 4th line was chipping in

#75 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:05 PM

He just can't play hockey well enough as our 4th line. We wouldn't have gotten anywhere against Chicago unless our 4th line was chipping in

 

LOL.

 

Yeah, there's no way Tootoo could match Miller's 2 points in 6 playoff games, Eaves' 3 points in 13 games, and Emmerton's 1 point in 13 games.  

 

 

All these posters who don't like Tootoo need to get over their dislike of him and actually come up with decent arguments against him.  He's not a fighter, our 4th line guys are better than him, and he takes too many stupid penalties are not good arguments, as explained by myself and others in this thread.  



Admittedly I am not the biggest Tootoo fan, nor did I like the Wings signing him.

Having said that:

 

There is no way he gets inserted into this line up with any regularity unless Miller and  Eaves are both hurt.

 

Those two are two of the better pkers on this team and play a very responsible game for the Wings.

 

The fourth line next year has 4 guys ahead of toots with a healthy Helm back, and that is without the Wings signing a Free Agent to move Abby down the roster.

 

This is with me assuming Bert and Sammy are gone next season, if they are here Toots will have an even harder time cracking the roster.

 

I enjoyed seeing Toots out there swinging for the fences, but he took himself out of the play too often!

 

We have no shortage of PK'ers.  We have a shortage of toughness or good hitters.

 

If by "took himself out of the play" you mean he fought a lot, well no crap.  That's what fighters do.  They fight and sit in the box.  Unless the NHL wants to change the automatic 5 minute penalty that goes with that.  

 

I agree about next year's roster, but for this season, I think he should have played more in the playoffs.  Not saying we would have won the series, but he should have played more.  They signed him so he can help in the postseason with grinding shifts and wearing defenders down.  



So I take it, then, that you must think Mike Babcock is a terrible head coach right now, right?  After all, Babcock scratched Tootoo every game of the Chicago series, and we fell one overtime goal short of knocking off the best team in the NHL up to that point.  If only Jordin Tootoo had been there, with his considerable skill, and spirit-crushing behind-the-play body checks.

 

You are possibly the first person I have ever heard say that the Wings have bandwagon fans who are only here for that European style of play.  You're probably right.  It's only the hardest of hardcore fans that can appreciate things like Fight Night at the Joe, or good Canadian boys like Yzerman and Shanahan winning multiple Stanley Cups.  Yep, attendance and fan interest definitely spiked as this team became more European and less inclined to fight.

 

I think Opie's comment above this one is a good, measured analysis of Tootoo.  Even if you happen to like elements of what Tootoo does, you can't focus narrowly on that without acknowledging what Tootoo doesn't do.  He can't kill penalties, he's not affordable relative to his contribution, and he can't contribute any meaningful offense.  Anyone happen to see Akim Aliu's 5-game stint with Calgary this year? (14 PIM).  You can pay some AHL'er $700k to start jumping into checks and trying to murder people all over the ice.  That isn't really a "specialized" commodity the Wings needed to pay for.

 

Which of our 4th liners contributed meaningful offense?  

 

Look up our 4th lines' playoff stats and answer me that question.  


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#76 Aznknight

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:29 PM

He does what he's paid to do. If the wings need him they call him. He knows this and have accepted his role. I respect that.
Peanut galleries don't

He does what he's paid to do. If the wings need him they call him. He knows this and have accepted his role. I respect that.
Peanut galleries don't

#77 newfy

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:22 AM

So I take it, then, that you must think Mike Babcock is a terrible head coach right now, right?  After all, Babcock scratched Tootoo every game of the Chicago series, and we fell one overtime goal short of knocking off the best team in the NHL up to that point.  If only Jordin Tootoo had been there, with his considerable skill, and spirit-crushing behind-the-play body checks.

 

I think Opie's comment above this one is a good, measured analysis of Tootoo.  Even if you happen to like elements of what Tootoo does, you can't focus narrowly on that without acknowledging what Tootoo doesn't do.  He can't kill penalties, he's not affordable relative to his contribution, and he can't contribute any meaningful offense.  Anyone happen to see Akim Aliu's 5-game stint with Calgary this year? (14 PIM).  You can pay some AHL'er $700k to start jumping into checks and trying to murder people all over the ice.  That isn't really a "specialized" commodity the Wings needed to pay for.

No Tootoo started in the playoffs and Babcock shook up the roster. The team started winning and were an OT goal away from conference finals. Its hard to blame him for not putting him back in the line up, you dont mess with a winning team. That being said, he very well could have been a guy in that series who laid Seabrook out and shook him up so that he didnt have such a good last couple games.

 

But like I and others have said, you bring up he doesnt provide meaningful offense as a reason to not play him on the fourth line but all the other fourth line players get a pass for that? You couldnt pay an AHLer to go out and get voted the second hardest hitter in the league by his peers. That just shows your arguments arent based on logic and you just dislike Tootoo. You go on about his behind the play antics and act like all of his hits are after the play but cant acknowledge that his physical game is actually elite in the NHL?


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#78 ben_usmc

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:41 AM

Tootoo was a great signing STILL. I loved him in Nashville and wanted him on the Wings for years.  I can't believe anyone would argue his merit, considering in the regular season with his ice time he was scoring a better clip then most of our 4th liners.  People just seem to remember the playoffs, and it's not like he was given much of a chance to prove if he had any worth.  We shall see what training camp has in store to prove more value. 


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#79 The Axe

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:27 AM

 
That's a straw man argument.  First, there were long stretches of this year where Miller was terrible.  He played better in the Playoffs, but entering the season, people forget that it was Miller, not Abdelkader, that most people would've identified as the "banger" more likely to get run with Top 6 forwards.  Oh, and we just resigned Miller for about 2/3 of what Tootoo's cap hit is also.  Maybe that doesn't matter to some people, but it matters to me, and it matters to the front office.
 
You talk about the "softness of the team" as if it's directly correlated to how "hard" or "soft" Tootoo is.  An "agitator", as opposed to a "power forward", does not make your team "tougher".  He's basically there for no other reason than to try and disrupt the focus of the other team.  That can have a place in the game if that's an overall part of what your team does.  Matt Cooke does that sort of stuff.  Brad Marchand does too, but just happens to bring a great deal more skill to the table as well.  But the post-lockout Wings are not a team that uses gratuitous hits and fights to generate momentum.  They're a puck possession skill team that has a very specific gameplan.  Throwing a guy on the 4th line that runs people and starts crap is "interesting", but it's also horribly out of place on this team. 
 
People said the Wings teams of the mid-90's were soft, too, but it wasn't Stu Grimson and Joey Kocur who were responsible for turning that around.  It was a power forward like Shanahan playing 20 minutes a night and playing physical in the corners.  It was Darren McCarty playing significant minutes with Yzerman, or on the Grind Line.  And, this year, the emergence of Abdelkader allowed us to elevate to a Playoff style of play.  4th line bit players cannot change the underlying character of a team...that just doesn't happen.


Great Post.
+1

  

Sounds like end of story. End of thread. LOL.


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#80 Opie

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:43 PM

 

 

If by "took himself out of the play" you mean he fought a lot, well no crap.  That's what fighters do.  They fight and sit in the box.  Unless the NHL wants to change the automatic 5 minute penalty that goes with that.  

 

 

 

No I mean he took a run at a D-man and then was not back in the zone to play defense until late in the play, I mean he literally took himself out of the play to try and hit a guy. Where did I mention fighting?


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“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
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