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Dreger: Filppula looking for $5.5m/season over at least 7 years


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#261 Playmaker

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:17 PM

Weiss is a steady 20 goal, 50-60 point guy. And on a much worse team. You know, the guy we kept waiting for Filppula to become. Instant upgrade.

Did you forget all the time Flip spent with Zetterberg and Franzen? Flip should have been much more productive than he was.

So should have Z and Franzen. 



#262 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:17 PM

Oh, and you;re really going to include his first 4 game season in the NHL as part of his 8 year career?

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#263 Zetts

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:17 PM

Past two years:
Filppula: 122g, 32g, 51a
Weiss: 97g, 21g, 40a
Grabovski: 122g, 32g, 35a

How are weiss or Grabovski any better than Filppula?

At this point, anyone on the FA list is a downgrade from Flip. If we sign Weiss for anything around $4.5m, it would be insane.

That's because you're taking Filppula's ONE good season in there.  That's the whole point, nobody believes that that's the player he really is.  He finally breaks through and then regresses.

 

Here's some more telling stats of the top 5 seasons for each player (from best to worst):

Filppula: 66 pts, 40 pts, 39 pts, 36 pts, 35 pts

Weiss: 61 pts, 60 pts, 57 pts, 49 pts, 48 pts.

 

And Weiss played on a crap team for most of those years.

 

There is no way Filppula is better.



#264 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:17 PM

I agree. It's just people are acting like Weiss or Grabovski would be a big upgrade, when in reality its a lateral move at best.

And actually, over the past 5 seasons he has averaged .60 ppg. That's 50 points, not 35.

I'm talking about real numbers.  Not extrapolations from ppg.  



#265 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:20 PM

Franzen is lazy at times but that's a gross exaggeration of his abilities otherwise.  He can and does absolutely make plays, cycle well, and score goals.


At times? You mean the times when he's on the ice?

And Franzen has always had a much bigger role on the team with a ton of PP time and playing with Pav or Z. He does his job marginally well as long as he is with a bonafide star like Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#266 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:25 PM

And Weiss played on a crap team for most of those years.


#1 center on a crap team is better than #3 center on a great team.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#267 Shaman

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:26 PM

At times? You mean the times when he's on the ice?

And Franzen has always had a much bigger role on the team with a ton of PP time and playing with Pav or Z. He does his job marginally well as long as he is with a bonafide star like Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Except Franzen never expected to be paid as a first liner, according to St James Flip wants first line center money. No thank you. Weiss at <5 million please.


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#268 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

I'm talking about real numbers.  Not extrapolations from ppg.


I'm telling you how many points he scores per game. You can't say that's not a "real number" or a real argument just because it makes you wrong.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#269 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:31 PM

I'm telling you how many points he scores per game. You can't say that's not a "real number" or a real argument just because it makes you wrong.

 

I'm not arguing his PPG.   But that doesn't make him a 50 point per season guy.  

 

In terms of points actually produced in games that were actually played, in his career Flip has generally put up 35 to 40 points.  I'm not wrong about that.

 

 



#270 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:31 PM

Except Franzen never expected to be paid as a first liner, according to St James Flip wants first line center money. No thank you. Weiss at <5 million please.


Franzen is getting paid $5.25 million right now. The only reason his cap hit is so low is because of the $4m he gets paid over the last 3 years of the contract.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#271 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:32 PM

Oh, and you;re really going to include his first 4 game season in the NHL as part of his 8 year career?

 

I was going by the number listed at the top of TSN stats.  So call it a 7 year career.  He's scored 66 points once.  Otherwise he comes in around 35-40 points per year. 



#272 Euro_Twins

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:34 PM

That's because you're taking Filppula's ONE good season in there.  That's the whole point, nobody believes that that's the player he really is.  He finally breaks through and then regresses.
 
Here's some more telling stats of the top 5 seasons for each player (from best to worst):
Filppula: 66 pts, 40 pts, 39 pts, 36 pts, 35 pts
Weiss: 61 pts, 60 pts, 57 pts, 49 pts, 48 pts.
 
And Weiss played on a crap team for most of those years.
 
There is no way Filppula is better.


This. Filppula had one good year that fits right in with Weiss' average season, maybe a little bit more points but Weiss is better

#273 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:37 PM

In terms of points actually produced in games that were actually played, in his career Flip has generally put up 35 to 40 points.  I'm not wrong about that.


You're not paintng a full picture since you don'tmention how many games he played. Unless you don't think he would have scored 6 more points if he played 27 more games to make a full season in 09-10.

Otherwise he comes in around 35-40 points per year.


There is really no point in rehashing the entire Filppula argument if you're going to ignore facts.

Water must be blue, until you actually think about it, right?

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#274 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

You're not paintng a full picture since you don'tmention how many games he played. Unless you don't think he would have scored 6 more points if he played 27 more games to make a full season in 09-10.

 

6 more points? sure he probably could have, which would put him at 41 points for the season.  That's pretty close to the 35-40 points I've been saying. 

 

But really who knows what he would have done?  Maybe he goes on a hot streak and scores 2 goals a game for 27 games.  Maybe he fails to register a point for the entire rest of the season.  

 

I'm talking about the points a player has regularly put up, not extrapolations.  Health factors into that.  



#275 Shaman

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:41 PM

Franzen is getting paid $5.25 million right now. The only reason his cap hit is so low is because of the $4m he gets paid over the last 3 years of the contract.

And? What he is getting paid now makes no difference in this world, his cap hit is important. Flip wants 5.5 million AAV. Hes not worth that, hes worth 4-4.5 tops, especially after how badly he s*** the bed last year. 


Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#276 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:43 PM

You're not paintng a full picture since you don'tmention how many games he played. Unless you don't think he would have scored 6 more points if he played 27 more games to make a full season in 09-10.

There is really no point in rehashing the entire Filppula argument if you're going to ignore facts.

Water must be blue, until you actually think about it, right?

I'm not ignoring facts and I suggest you choose your words carefully if you'd like to continue this discussion.

We can disagree without the smartass comments.

#277 ogreslayer

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:46 PM

Surprising that with Flip being a clear #1 center and all that he hasn't been snapped up yet right?  Right?   :brow:



#278 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

That's because you're taking Filppula's ONE good season in there.  That's the whole point, nobody believes that that's the player he really is.  He finally breaks through and then regresses.
 
Here's some more telling stats of the top 5 seasons for each player (from best to worst):
Filppula: 66 pts, 40 pts, 39 pts, 36 pts, 35 pts
Weiss: 61 pts, 60 pts, 57 pts, 49 pts, 48 pts.
 
And Weiss played on a crap team for most of those years.
 
There is no way Filppula is better.


If you just want to look on the surface, yeah, Weiss is way better than Filppula. If you actually want to know the facts, think about it for more than 3 seconds. Weiss has a much more significant role on the team. He's been their #1 center, Flip is our #3 center. I'll run the numbers for you.

Last five seasons:
Filppula: 328 games, 197 points: .60 ppg
Weiss: 331 games, 231 points: .7 ppg

So he's had a much bigger role on the team with a ton more ice time over a period of time where Filppula often wasn't even on the powerplay and he scored only slightly more.

I'm not saying Flip is better, but there is no argument that Weiss is any better.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#279 Shaman

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:50 PM

If you just want to look on the surface, yeah, Weiss is way better than Filppula. If you actually want to know the facts, think about it for more than 3 seconds. Weiss has a much more significant role on the team. He's been their #1 center, Flip is our #3 center. I'll run the numbers for you.

Last five seasons:
Filppula: 328 games, 197 points: .60 ppg
Weiss: 331 games, 231 points: .7 ppg

So he's had a much bigger role on the team with a ton more ice time over a period of time where Filppula often wasn't even on the powerplay and he scored only slightly more.

I'm not saying Flip is better, but there is no argument that Weiss is any better.

Flip also played with two of the best players in the world, Zetterberg and Datsyuk. 

 

PS Even if he wasn't on the same line as either of them, their presence on the team meant that Flip lined up against lower quality players than Weiss did night in and night out.


Edited by Shaman464, 05 July 2013 - 12:53 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#280 Z and D for the C

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:59 PM

And? What he is getting paid now makes no difference in this world, his cap hit is important. Flip wants 5.5 million AAV. Hes not worth that, hes worth 4-4.5 tops, especially after how badly he s*** the bed last year.


My point is that Filppula could have come in at a low cap hit just like Franzen if we still had the old CBA. If Franzen was a FA this year, you think he would only be asking for $3.9m?
 
 

But really who knows what he would have done?  Maybe he goes on a hot streak and scores 2 goals a game for 27 games.  Maybe he fails to register a point for the entire rest of the season.


We don't know. That's why its perfectly reasonable to assume that he would have scored at a relavtiely similar pace. Thats not even bringing up how well he did when he came back from injury and played well centering players like Cleary, Williams, Miller and Leino. http://hockey.dobber...mes=2009-2010:R
 

Flip also played with two of the best players in the world, Zetterberg and Datsyuk.


The entire time? 
 

I'm not ignoring facts and I suggest you choose your words carefully if you'd like to continue this discussion.


I don't want to continue this discussion on account of you ignoring facts.

PS Even if he wasn't on the same line as either of them, their presence on the team meant that Flip lined up against lower quality players than Weiss did night in and night out.


Fair argument.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!






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