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Wings looking to trade before using buyouts


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#41 FlashyG

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 03:40 PM

 

Based on the term of the deal, I think everyone (management and fans) expected more like 35-40 goals and 75-80 points, at least for a few years.  That hasn't happened, and what production has come has been feast-or-famine to the extreme.  Plus, with Bickell, there's no guarantee he won't stay in the 10-15 goal, 25-35 point range.  It's a total crapshoot, for sure.

 

I think that's true with some fans, but many fans and I think management didn't expect his numbers to improve from what he had given in the years previous to his extension.

 

He's always been a 25-30 goal scorer with 50-60 pts.

 

If they thought he was going to be a 35-40 goal scorer and a 75-80pt player they'd have paid him a lot more money, and they'd be talking about buying him out right now.

 

Holland thinks the idea of buying out Franzen is "crazy" so I think they are quite happy with his play.



#42 StormJH1

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 03:41 PM

I knew Tootoo was gone. I've had that feeling for weeks and it's sad to see, but I can't help feeling after all Holland and Babs said about the importance of the role Tootoo plays we won't join the Eastern Conference without finding a suitable replacement.

 

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Tootoo. He takes less bad penalties than most players on our team and has reasonable production. There's still hope though, but not much.

 

Sad.

 

Disagree with the "Sad" part, but that's not why I'm posting.  I keep hearing this "we're going to the Eastern Conference and need to get more physical talk" and I don't get it.  Most of the time people cite that argument, they're talking about adding a fourth line banger, a heavyweight goon, or (in the case of Tootoo) retaining a 13th forward.

 

I don't get the Eastern Conference thing at all.  There is ONE team in the East (Boston) that is head and shoulders more physically imposing than the rest, and that is Boston.  Really, when you say Boston, you mean Chara and Lucic.  The skill guys on that team are mostly regular-sized dudes.  And Chicago just beat them in 6, and we damn near beat Chicago.  You could look teams like LA and find as many (or more) skilled large body forwards, and they're a Western team.

 

But even if it is true that the East is this totally different style of hockey and we're likely to get bounced all over the rink, you aren't going to change that fact about the Red Wings by adding and subtracting a few role players in free agency.  You'd literally have to re-make the entire core of the team, plus throw out all of the elements of Detroit's discipline and emphasis on skill and puck possession that frustrate other physical teams into dumb penalties.

 

I'm a fan of physical players with skill.  For example, if you added David Clarkson (or maybe even Bryan Bickell) to a forward corps that also has Franzen and Abdelkader, that's actually a decent number of skilled big bodies.  But this Red Wings team is pretty darn good the way it is, and you can't just reinvent it into something else overnight.  Nor would I want to.



#43 wingsfan4795

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 03:56 PM

 
Disagree with the "Sad" part, but that's not why I'm posting.  I keep hearing this "we're going to the Eastern Conference and need to get more physical talk" and I don't get it.  Most of the time people cite that argument, they're talking about adding a fourth line banger, a heavyweight goon, or (in the case of Tootoo) retaining a 13th forward.
 
I don't get the Eastern Conference thing at all.  There is ONE team in the East (Boston) that is head and shoulders more physically imposing than the rest, and that is Boston.  Really, when you say Boston, you mean Chara and Lucic.  The skill guys on that team are mostly regular-sized dudes.  And Chicago just beat them in 6, and we damn near beat Chicago.  You could look teams like LA and find as many (or more) skilled large body forwards, and they're a Western team.
 
But even if it is true that the East is this totally different style of hockey and we're likely to get bounced all over the rink, you aren't going to change that fact about the Red Wings by adding and subtracting a few role players in free agency.  You'd literally have to re-make the entire core of the team, plus throw out all of the elements of Detroit's discipline and emphasis on skill and puck possession that frustrate other physical teams into dumb penalties.
 
I'm a fan of physical players with skill.  For example, if you added David Clarkson (or maybe even Bryan Bickell) to a forward corps that also has Franzen and Abdelkader, that's actually a decent number of skilled big bodies.  But this Red Wings team is pretty darn good the way it is, and you can't just reinvent it into something else overnight.  Nor would I want to.

I completely agree. The only thing the east has that the west lacks is enforcers. If we don't have enforcers, its not like our other players are going to be forced to fight.

Good rule of thumb is always take an octopus everywhere. Better to have one and not need it than find yourself thinking, "Damn, I wish I had that octopus".

 

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#44 number9

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

The toughness in the East is completely overrated. People act like the east is full of goons that will crush us. There is little to no difference.



#45 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:07 PM

Enjoyed the nugget about the Wings trying to trade Tootoo.  There are some posters here that will burn the forum down if they deal their beloved "enforcer".

 

It's interesting that people talked about the Wings as one of the (secondary) offenders of offering backdiving deals, yet the two suspected candidates (37 and 28) are actually guys on shorter term deals signed in the 2012 offseason.  In other words, we actually did intend on honoring the Zetterberg and Franzen contracts. 

 

However, is Khan right about this?  I thought that Sammy and Bert were both on 35+ deals, and you can't buyout a 35+ deal.  I must be mistaken.

Really???? :brow:



#46 Crymson

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:15 PM

I'm kinda hoping we can pull off a deal for Yandle finally. With us switching conferences and Phoenix in dire need of some forward depth I could see a trade being worked out.

 

To Phoenix:

 

Tatar

Eaves

Colaiacovo

2nd round pick

 

To Detroit:

 

Yandle

6th round pick

 

That would be a terrible trade. Yandle is above-average in the offensive zone, but he's terrible at playing defense. More, he'd be yet another left-handed shot. No thanks, especially at the cost of Tatar.

 

In any event, this would not be enough to acquire him from Phoenix.



#47 Zetts

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:16 PM

I knew Tootoo was gone. I've had that feeling for weeks and it's sad to see, but I can't help feeling after all Holland and Babs said about the importance of the role Tootoo plays we won't join the Eastern Conference without finding a suitable replacement.

 

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Tootoo. He takes less bad penalties than most players on our team and has reasonable production. There's still hope though, but not much.

 

Sad.

 

I also don't mind him, but he's clearly paid too much.  Obviously that's not his fault, but it's a valid reason to buy him out.  Paying 1.9M for someone that barely plays is a waste.



#48 Crymson

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:24 PM

Maybe Abby can get 20 goals while crashing and mucking on Datsyuks line, doing a lot of the grunt work   so a Clarkson-type-scoring-guy can find some space to snipe from.Yes, I'd prefer a bigger Bickel there instead of Abby, but so would every GM in the league now that he's been showcased in the Finals so chances of getting him are slim to none.  If we get the right scorer on Dat's wing, then settling for Abby there could be fine while spreading cap space to other lines.

 

This set of forward lines can compete with anyone.  We are not that far away, maybe one top acquisition is all we need.

 

Clarkson is not a sniper. He's an inconsistent scorer who often destroys plays by taking a shot the first chance he gets, even if it's from a horrific spot. He's sure to be overpaid by some team.



The toughness in the East is completely overrated. People act like the east is full of goons that will crush us. There is little to no difference.

 

Pretty much.

 

I completely agree. The only thing the east has that the west lacks is enforcers. If we don't have enforcers, its not like our other players are going to be forced to fight.

 

Of the top 20 players in fighting majors this season, nine played in the western conference, nine played in the eastern conference, and the others split their time between the two.



 

Based on the term of the deal, I think everyone (management and fans) expected more like 35-40 goals and 75-80 points, at least for a few years.  That hasn't happened, and what production has come has been feast-or-famine to the extreme.  Plus, with Bickell, there's no guarantee he won't stay in the 10-15 goal, 25-35 point range.  It's a total crapshoot, for sure.

 

Even at that stage, no 40-goal, 80-point player was being paid only $4m on a long-term contract.



#49 Zetts

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

 

Clarkson is not a sniper. He's an inconsistent scorer who often destroys plays by taking a shot the first chance he gets, even if it's from a horrific spot. He's sure to be overpaid by some team.

Additionally, the one season that he's really getting the attention for (2011-2012), his +/- was -8.  That was 1 away from being tied for the worst on the team.  This season he was -6, 2 away from the worst on the team.

 

And, just for fun, in 2010-2011, he was -20 (6 better than Kovalchuk's -26, but still awful).

 

Plus/minus isn't a great stat, but if someone consistently is towards the bottom of his team, it definitely does say something.



#50 Son of a Wing

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:32 PM

One poster brings up replacing Tootoo and the East and everyone goes off the deep end.

 

No one is talking about reshaping the roster or our style of play. It's just that Tootoo is the most aggressive player we have and losing him would create a hole. It helps to have players like that throughout your roster and especially in the bottom 6 to wear down your opponent. We have little to none.

 

It's not about enforcers, it's about guys that can crash and bang and still play a normal shift without being a liability.

 

It's not about the East, it's about being a difficult team to play against both with and without the puck.


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#51 joshy207

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:53 PM

 

I think that's true with some fans, but many fans and I think management didn't expect his numbers to improve from what he had given in the years previous to his extension.

 

He's always been a 25-30 goal scorer with 50-60 pts.

 

If they thought he was going to be a 35-40 goal scorer and a 75-80pt player they'd have paid him a lot more money, and they'd be talking about buying him out right now.

 

Holland thinks the idea of buying out Franzen is "crazy" so I think they are quite happy with his play.

I think they would expect some uptick from those numbers, considering he was 29 when he signed the big contract, and after a career (in Sweden and 2 NHL seasons) of being primarily a defensive-minded center/winger, he found his scoring touch at age 27, scoring 27 and 34 goals, in addition to 13 and 12 goals in the playoff runs of '08 and '09.  I figure they were hoping for an improvement over 34-25--59 in his contract year.  They have gotten steady (overall) production at just below those numbers.  The frustrating part is that he shows flashes of dominance, 40-goal capability, then he vanishes to the Swedish backwoods for a month or so before showing up again.  And the cap hit is under $4M strictly because of the length of the contract.  Had he signed a 5- or 6-year deal, we would have been looking at possibly $5-6M per year.

I also would not buy him out this summer, Holland's reasoning is all valid.  Should they have a buyout still available next summer and should Franzen's production tail off significantly, I would consider it then, but only if he had a brutal season.  But to say they're "happy" with his play might be a bit of a stretch.  The numbers aren't bad, but the consistency and interest often don't seem to be there.



#52 F.Michael

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:55 PM

One poster brings up replacing Tootoo and the East and everyone goes off the deep end.

 

No one is talking about reshaping the roster or our style of play. It's just that Tootoo is the most aggressive player we have and losing him would create a hole. It helps to have players like that throughout your roster and especially in the bottom 6 to wear down your opponent. We have little to none.

 

It's not about enforcers, it's about guys that can crash and bang and still play a normal shift without being a liability.

 

It's not about the East, it's about being a difficult team to play against both with and without the puck.

I'd much rather keep Tootoo over Emerton, Bertuzzi, or Sammuelsson.



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#53 joshy207

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 05:43 PM

Even at that stage, no 40-goal, 80-point player was being paid only $4m on a long-term contract.

 

True, but Franzen wasn't putting up those numbers at that time.  I think they locked him up long-term thinking he might be able to produce at that level for 2-3 years.  Either way, his cap hit is fine for his numbers, even a bit of a bargain.  The tradeoff comes in a couple-few years when he is no longer producing like this, but is still taking up almost $4M of cap space.



#54 GoWings1905

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

I think the thing that stands out to me more than anything in this discussion is the coaching job Mike Babcock did this past season. I'm not knocking Holland here because he tried for Suter/Parise, but otherwise last summer was a failure. Every signing (minus Brunner) is being mentioned as a buyout candidate (Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, Tootoo) and the other move in Gustavsson couldn't perform well enough to even see the ice. In a sense, the patchwork roster was probably beneficial going forward because of the valuable experience gained for the young guys. 

 

Holland has to be aggressive this off-season. The Red Wings are only a couple pieces away from serious contention, but the best players on the team aren't getting any younger. I think adding at least one top-six forward (ideally a winger with size) is imperative and that means no more Filppula for starters. I get the sense Weiss is the main target right now. 


 
 
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#55 Dimaline312000

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:56 PM

I would definetly rather see the Wings make a few trades before buying-out players. Perhaps they can get a good deal(s) and get some other quality players that can help us get back to the Cup!!



#56 The Axe

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:59 PM

Im fine with parting ways with Flip, Cleary, Brunner, Bert, Sammy, Tootoo, Colo, and White. Use Buyouts, Trades, Retirements, whatever. Just wipe the slate clean of them and the 17+ mil they come with.

Z-Dats-Franzen
Nyquist-Helm-Abdelkader
Tatar-Andersson-Eaves
Miller-Emdog-Sheahan
Pulks-Jurco

Kronwall-Ericsson
Quincey-Smith
Kindl-Lashoff
Almquist

Howard
Gustavsson

I like that line up and an extra 10 mil to spend at some point then having all that excess garbage.

#57 RedWingCraig

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:30 PM

http://video.tsn.ca/...0/954249/clip/0

 

 

Button's last mock draft,,,can live with the Wings pick



Im fine with parting ways with Flip, Cleary, Brunner, Bert, Sammy, Tootoo, Colo, and White. Use Buyouts, Trades, Retirements, whatever. Just wipe the slate clean of them and the 17+ mil they come with.

Z-Dats-Franzen
Nyquist-Helm-Abdelkader
Tatar-Andersson-Eaves
Miller-Emdog-Sheahan
Pulks-Jurco

Kronwall-Ericsson
Quincey-Smith
Kindl-Lashoff
Almquist

Howard
Gustavsson

I like that line up and an extra 10 mil to spend at some point then having all that excess garbage.

Guess you traded Dekeyser?



#58 GMRwings1983

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:42 PM

I'd much rather keep Tootoo over Emerton, Bertuzzi, or Sammuelsson.

 

Especially since those guys are replaceable in our own lineup.  We don't have anyone else like Tootoo on the roster.  He makes us more balanced.  

 

And it's not just Boston being a tough team.  Toronto has a tough team as well, and we may run into them in the playoffs next season.  Philly always likes tougher lineups if they can get back to being a playoff team.  


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#59 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:38 PM

 

Especially since those guys are replaceable in our own lineup.  We don't have anyone else like Tootoo on the roster.  He makes us more balanced.  

 

And it's not just Boston being a tough team.  Toronto has a tough team as well, and we may run into them in the playoffs next season.  Philly always likes tougher lineups if they can get back to being a playoff team.  

Tootoo was expendable and unused in the playoffs this year. I thought the guys played a nice physical series with him out of the lineup this year and can do the same next.

If we are to get tougher move some old bodies and bring Bickell/Clarkson types in to bang near the net.


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#60 Hairy Lime

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:06 PM

Tootoo was expendable and unused in the playoffs this year. I thought the guys played a nice physical series with him out of the lineup this year and can do the same next.

If we are to get tougher move some old bodies and bring Bickell/Clarkson types in to bang near the net.

If you thought Detroit played "a nice physical series with him out of the lineup", then you need to get those prescriptions checked. I think I saw Abdelkader deliver a few big checks, but outside of him, nothing. Tootoo should have played in the playoffs, and will be a valuable asset next season.  It's hard to win playing soft hockey, especially in the East, as much as Holland would have you believe otherwise. It's a physical game. Detroit would be wise to try and find that balance they had in the 90's, like Chicago has now. 

 

Bickell is going to demand more money than he's worth, and I don't see Holland going after Clarkson, as much as I would like to see him in a Wings uniform next season. I hope I'm wrong, but this is Holland we're talking about...







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