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Jakub Kindl signs 4 year extension, $9.6m total, $2.4m/yr



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#61 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:49 PM

quincey only has one year left on his contract, thank god. - 3,775,000

 

 

 

 

he played better 2nd half and playoffs ... and to be honest i hope he plays amazing and we resign him otherwise we traded our 1st round pick for nothing

 

 

otherwise package him in a deal and get rid of him now

 


Edited by nyqvististhefuture, 29 June 2013 - 04:50 PM.


#62 The Axe

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:50 PM

It's overpayment right now.  And he's now signed until he's 30 so the big question is if he's still improving or if he's peaked.
 
Offensively he made big improvements this season.  He looked more and more comfortable on the PP and is among if not the best on the team at getting his shot through.  It might not always be a cannon but he can get it through to the net, which this team has had a hard time with since Nick and Rafalski retired. 
 
Defensively he still plays with the consistency of a #7 guy though.  If he improves that, this'll be a good deal.  If he doesn't, the Wings will be wishing they packaged him in a trade. 


He lead all our defensemen in +/-. Playoffs and Regular Season. So either youre saying all our defensemen play at #7 level or below, or youre wrong.

#63 joshy207

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:17 PM

+/- is a flawed stat.

 

This is more money than I would have liked to see, but I'm not too upset.  Kindl had a big year, took a huge step forward, and is *finally* starting to show some of the potential that made him a first-round pick.  I don't know that he'll ever get any higher than a #4 defenseman, but he's a solid third-pair guy.  Probably could have had him for about $2M per year, but by the end of the deal, this could work out to be a bargain.



#64 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:56 PM

He lead all our defensemen in +/-. Playoffs and Regular Season. So either youre saying all our defensemen play at #7 level or below, or youre wrong.

 

No, I can rely on other factors to determine what level a defenseman is playing at, like watching them play the game.  An understanding of the plus-minus stat helps too.

 

If you actually read my post, you'd see I was specifically saying that on the defensive end he plays like a #7, not his overall game.  To further clarify I'm mostly referring to his lack of consistency in his own zone.  That lack of consistency night after night is the biggest difference between a #7 plug and regular on the blueline, especially someone with Kindl's skillset.

 

Maybe next time try and make a point of your own instead of misrepresenting mine and telling me I'm wrong.



#65 The Axe

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:02 PM

 
No, I can rely on other factors to determine what level a defenseman is playing at, like watching them play the game.  An understanding of the plus-minus stat helps too.
 
If you actually read my post, you'd see I was specifically saying that on the defensive end he plays like a #7, not his overall game.  To further clarify I'm mostly referring to his lack of consistency in his own zone.  That lack of consistency night after night is the biggest difference between a #7 plug and regular on the blueline, especially someone with Kindl's skillset.
 
Maybe next time try and make a point of your own instead of misrepresenting mine and telling me I'm wrong.


The stats dont support your argument is all. +/- is kept so you can see what players are the most beneficial to a team 5 on 5. This stat can be skewed, as the top pairing usually faces the other team's top line(s) and vice versa. But in Kindl's case, he was seeing big minutes last season. Babcock wasnt shielding him from the superstars. His +/- is a great indicator that he was taking care of his business in hid own end. Babcock mentioned this several times last season.

#66 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:20 AM

The stats dont support your argument is all. +/- is kept so you can see what players are the most beneficial to a team 5 on 5. This stat can be skewed, as the top pairing usually faces the other team's top line(s) and vice versa. But in Kindl's case, he was seeing big minutes last season. Babcock wasnt shielding him from the superstars. His +/- is a great indicator that he was taking care of his business in hid own end. Babcock mentioned this several times last season.

The stats don't support my argument? 

 

His average TOI was 17:43 in the playoffs. 18:33 in the regular season.  Go look where those numbers put him on the depth chart. In the playoffs he averaged 14:57 Even Strength TOI.  Regular season it was 15:40.  The rest was mostly on the PP.  Kindl wasn't seeing big minutes.

 

His plus minus was good in part because he was protected.  That stat in no way proves the opposite, or much else for that matter.  +/- is in no way a great indicator of taking care of business in your own end. 

 

On the LA Kings the +/- leader during the regular season was Jake Muzzin.  Ask any Kings game how they felt anytime Muzzin had the puck in his own end.  



#67 The Axe

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 01:08 AM

http://www.nhl.com/i...iewName=summary


Kindl is 2nd in scoring, 4th in Time on Ice, 1st in +/-.

How does that make him 7th? Your assertion is totally unfounded.

Babcock bumped Kindl/Colo down to 3rd pair in the playoffs because he wanted Smith's speed on the ice. I dont think this is a knock on Kindl at all. Im sure Kindl and Dekeyser will see plenty of ice time next year.

#68 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 08:30 AM

http://www.nhl.com/i...iewName=summary


Kindl is 2nd in scoring, 4th in Time on Ice, 1st in +/-.

How does that make him 7th? Your assertion is totally unfounded.

Babcock bumped Kindl/Colo down to 3rd pair in the playoffs because he wanted Smith's speed on the ice. I dont think this is a knock on Kindl at all. Im sure Kindl and Dekeyser will see plenty of ice time next year.

 

As I've already mentioned, my assertion was never that Kindl was the 7th D man.  

 

My posts are there for you to re-read if you feel like seeing what I've actually said.



#69 Johnz96

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 08:39 AM

 

No, I can rely on other factors to determine what level a defenseman is playing at, like watching them play the game.  An understanding of the plus-minus stat helps too.

 

If you actually read my post, you'd see I was specifically saying that on the defensive end he plays like a #7, not his overall game.  To further clarify I'm mostly referring to his lack of consistency in his own zone.  That lack of consistency night after night is the biggest difference between a #7 plug and regular on the blueline, especially someone with Kindl's skillset.

 

Maybe next time try and make a point of your own instead of misrepresenting mine and telling me I'm wrong.

That is a little harsh. He is better in his own zone than Yandle or Letang (and will only get betteer as he is finally being given an opportunity to develop). We finished 5th in the league in Goals Against. Of course Howard, Datsyuk and Zetterberg had a lot to do with that  but despite what many of you think so did the defense.



#70 The Axe

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:05 AM

 
As I've already mentioned, my assertion was never that Kindl was the 7th D man.  
 
My posts are there for you to re-read if you feel like seeing what I've actually said.


Did you write "Defensively, he still plays with the consistency of a number 7 guy though"?

Yes or no?

Im telling you that you havent moved on from 2012. Kindl plays with ghe consistency of a number 4 or better now. Thats why all his stats are up, thats why the coach is singing his praises, and thats why he got a nice extension. Why knock ANY part of his game right now?

#71 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:13 PM

Did you write "Defensively, he still plays with the consistency of a number 7 guy though"?

Yes or no?

Im telling you that you havent moved on from 2012. Kindl plays with ghe consistency of a number 4 or better now. Thats why all his stats are up, thats why the coach is singing his praises, and thats why he got a nice extension. Why knock ANY part of his game right now?

 

Yes, I did.  But all you're responses act like I called him a #7 D-man overall.  

 

You can tell me whatever you want, it doesn't make it true.  If you don't just quote part of my post out of context, you'll see I complimented a lot of his game.  And he has absolutely made big strides this year.

 

He was very poised in the offensive zone this season but Kindl doesn't play with the consistency of a #4 or better in his own end.  

 

Why knock any part of his game? For starters, it's a thread about Kindl's new contract on a hockey discussion forum, so all aspects of his game are relevant.  This isn't a cheerleading thread.



#72 Serratoni

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:13 PM

WOW nuts would never have done this move. lots of better options out there then him. Ferrence is playoff animal, should have brought him in. 

 

At least you're consistent--consistently wrong about Kindl, but consistent. Thankfully most of the board and the Wings management disagrees with you.


Edited by Serratoni, 30 June 2013 - 02:17 PM.


#73 The Axe

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:17 PM

 
Yes, I did.  But all you're responses act like I called him a #7 D-man overall.  
 
You can tell me whatever you want, it doesn't make it true.  If you don't just quote part of my post out of context, you'll see I complimented a lot of his game.  And he has absolutely made big strides this year.
 
He was very poised in the offensive zone this season but Kindl doesn't play with the consistency of a #4 or better in his own end.  
 
Why knock any part of his game? For starters, it's a thread about Kindl's new contract on a hockey discussion forum, so all aspects of his game are relevant.  This isn't a cheerleading thread.


What stats do you have to back up your point?

#74 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:23 PM

What stats do you have to back up your point?

 

As I've said, feel free to read back through my previous posts.  His TOI is somewhat of an indication of where he stands in the lineup.  But more importantly, I watch him play and base my opinion on that.  

 

Not everything can be boiled down to statistics.  Your misusing the +/- stat does not somehow make your argument the right one.  We're talking about hockey, not proving a theorem.



#75 The Axe

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:41 PM

 
As I've said, feel free to read back through my previous posts.  His TOI is somewhat of an indication of where he stands in the lineup.  But more importantly, I watch him play and base my opinion on that.  
 
Not everything can be boiled down to statistics.  Your misusing the +/- stat does not somehow make your argument the right one.  We're talking about hockey, not proving a theorem.


He was 4th in TOI during the regular season and 5th in the playoffs. So that doesnt seem like #7 to me. Im all for letting you have your OPINION, but I'd at least like you to admit that you dont have any statistics to base your "#7 defenseman from a defensively inconsistent standpoint" argument on.

#76 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:53 PM

He was 4th in TOI during the regular season and 5th in the playoffs. So that doesnt seem like #7 to me. Im all for letting you have your OPINION, but I'd at least like you to admit that you dont have any statistics to base your "#7 defenseman from a defensively inconsistent standpoint" argument on.

 

It's pretty hilarious that in one single post you can misrepresent my point to argue against it but then mostly sum it up correctly.

 

You don't have any statistics to prove your opinion either.  That's why they're opinions.  

 

It's also why watching the games is a great way to form an opinion of a player.

 

 

After you've taken one relatively minor point I made regarding Kindl's contract and repeatedly misconstrued it, I think we've derailed the thread enough here.



#77 The Axe

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

 
It's pretty hilarious that in one single post you can misrepresent my point to argue against it but then mostly sum it up correctly.
 
I don't need to admit anything.  You don't have any statistics to base your opinion on either.  That's why they're opinions.  There really isn't a stat that definitely shows that.
 
It's also why watching the games is a great way to form an opinion of a player.


Its pretty hilarious that you dont use any FACTS/STATS to support your opinions. It would be nice to read a sound argument and debate it instead of just a baseless one.

#78 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:22 PM

Its pretty hilarious that you dont use any FACTS/STATS to support your opinions. It would be nice to read a sound argument and debate it instead of just a baseless one.

You may disagree but mine actually is a reasonably sound argument. I've used statistics to support my case, but as I mentioned repeatedly, it also relies on watching the games. Sorry if it offends you because I said something mildly critical of one of your favorite players, but that doesn't make it baseless.

A baseless argument would be this one.
 

The stats dont support your argument is all. +/- is kept so you can see what players are the most beneficial to a team 5 on 5. This stat can be skewed, as the top pairing usually faces the other team's top line(s) and vice versa. But in Kindl's case, he was seeing big minutes last season. Babcock wasnt shielding him from the superstars. His +/- is a great indicator that he was taking care of his business in hid own end. Babcock mentioned this several times last season.

 

First, he wasn't playing big minutes.  As has been covered, his average TOI per game was 18:33, which puts him at #6 on the depth chart when everyone is healthy.   2:36 of his minutes were on the PP, which means he only average 15:40 per game at Even Strength, and 15 seconds on the PK.   That average ES TOI puts him 7th.  6th if you dont' want to count Cola.  Kronwall by comparison was playing 18:01 ES minutes per game.  And Ericsson was close behind with 17:55.  Those are big minutes against top competition.  In the playoffs the gap between the top pairing and other D men because even more pronounced.  

 

Second, +/- is in no way a great indicator of taking care of business in your own end. I've used this example before, but Lidstrom finished a -2 in 2011.  Using your reasoning, Brian Rafalski was best on the team at "taking care of business in his own end" with a +11 while Lidstrom was apparently worst at it among the regular defensive corps.  Watching the games tells us that's not actually the case. Rafalski was often a liability defensively with his small stature and ailing knee.

 

There's also the small point of Lidstrom winning the Norris that year, but I guess that's not a stat really so it doesn't count.  

 

 

All of this makes it seem like I'm being harder on Kindl than I actually am.  All I was saying is he needs to improve his consistency in his own zone and this contract will be worth it. 



#79 Euro_Twins

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:28 PM

quincey only has one year left on his contract, thank god. - 3,775,000


Yeah, Holland will lock him up to 6 years $36 million extension :P

#80 The Axe

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:38 PM

You may disagree but mine actually is a reasonably sound argument. I've used statistics to support my case, but as I mentioned repeatedly, it also relies on watching the games. Sorry if it offends you because I said something mildly critical of one of your favorite players, but that doesn't make it baseless.

A baseless argument would be this one.
 
 
First, he wasn't playing big minutes.  As has been covered, his average TOI per game was 18:33, which puts him at #6 on the depth chart when everyone is healthy.   2:36 of his minutes were on the PP, which means he only average 15:40 per game at Even Strength, and 15 seconds on the PK.   That average ES TOI puts him 7th.  6th if you dont' want to count Cola.  Kronwall by comparison was playing 18:01 ES minutes per game.  And Ericsson was close behind with 17:55.  Those are big minutes against top competition.  In the playoffs the gap between the top pairing and other D men because even more pronounced.  
 
Second, +/- is in no way a great indicator of taking care of business in your own end. I've used this example before, but Lidstrom finished a -2 in 2011.  Using your reasoning, Brian Rafalski was best on the team at "taking care of business in his own end" with a +11 while Lidstrom was apparently worst at it among the regular defensive corps.  Watching the games tells us that's not actually the case. Rafalski was often a liability defensively with his small stature and ailing knee.
 
There's also the small point of Lidstrom winning the Norris that year, but I guess that's not a stat really so it doesn't count.  


Youre getting closer. Im totally in agreement with you on +/- being a "loose" stat. Ian White had a huge +/- a few years ago because of his partner and he's a benchwarmer without Lidstrom. But Im not in agreement with you on your TOI argument. Smith passed Kuba on the depth chart during the playoffs, and possibly DeKeyser as well. But 18 and a half minutes a night out of Kindl is HUGE. There are only 120 minutes to divide between 6 defensemen. If each one plays equal minutes, thats 20 each right? Top pairing gets a little more. 2nd/3rd pairings get a little less, right? Kindl is gobbling up minutes because he's dependable This is where you are off. Maybe one more season will change your mind. Playing with DeKeyser will help too.





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