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The Overreaction Thread


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#41 WingedWheel91

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:20 AM

Been awhile since I've replied to something here, but I have watched this forum closely for several years.  I am a bit upset with our team this time, and forum bullies/ self-proclaimed experts aside, I feel it's necessary to chime in, or at a minimum, share my opinion (whether you want it or not).  I think this thread is perfect for that!  I don't think it's overreaction for real fans of this team to be upset with the path the Red Wings are headed down.  I feel that star players will cost this team more than others in part due to the sad state of our city, and the fact we don't fill our stands anymore.  The economy alone says that until some major support/ excitement is generated for this team by the people of Detroit, getting some super-star players into the Big D is going to be difficult.  KH needs to pull a shocker deal off just to generate excitement.  Let's face it, if you care enough to post something here, you are a fan, and aren't going anywhere, but that base is starting to dwindle, not grow like in the mid to late 90's and early 2000's...  KH used to really shake things up.  He even proved that this team was capable in the cap era in 2008.  Well, it's several years later, and the team is still hanging on the backs of Dats and Hank.  I believe Holland can't get those superstar players in here, and as good as our farm team is, they can't move up due to Sammy, Bertuzzi and Cleary.  Personally, their run in this playoff, or even that they got there was a fluke.  So here's the big question: What's it going to take?  You need fans and sponsers to make money, you need money to generate excitement and interest.  Hank and Dats are not getting any younger.  Where's it going to come from?  Overreaction, no.  Concerned, very.


I appreciate the response, but I think the star players are the problem and not as much the city. Lecavalier himself said he loved Detroit and would definitely consider coming here, so he met with our GM and was informed that we were not interested in signing a 33 year old, big, slow, centre who has certainly seen a decrease in production to a 5 year contract. It was the right move.

Although Dats and Hank aren't getting any younger, the rest of our team is. In 2014-15 we will roster one of the younger teams in the NHL, which also means your are going to be one of the lower payroll teams and have the ability to overspend where you see fit.

#42 gcom007

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:21 AM

I don't think anyone's arguing (well, at least...) that Holland wasn't a great GM at one point. What a lot of people are noting is that as we have moved far enough into the new era where we really started feeling the weight of the cap, Holland's struggled to show that he can maneuver well in free agency or with other teams via trade. That is a real problem, right now. It doesn't matter that once upon a time he did this or that; "this or that" from "way back when" have no bearing on "hear and now." Hear and now, he can't figure out how to sign or trade for difference makers, and he's tried plenty.

 

Holland's let people slip away that he shouldn't. He continues to cling to players he shouldn't. He overpays for mid-level talent based largely it seems on familiarity. He tries to underpay for high-level talent, which ultimately has failed every time. And when he fails, he's the king of revisionists, make no mistake. That guy finds a way to reshape everything that happened as part of some master plan, and it must be working, because there's plenty of non-critical thinkers who keep falling for it and praising Holland because of what he did in another era now long past us.

 

Oh, I guess it's easy forgetting in an instant that Holland was desperate to throw $9 million plus at both Suter and Parise last summer.

 

Oh, that's right, I remember now, Holland is so smart for not overpaying for free agents!

 

Now that we didn't sign them...

 

"We like our team."

 

I'm not trying to take anything away from what Holland has done, but if he was as great of a GM as people want to paint him to be in this cap era, he would not be struggling so much in the free agency and trade markets. You can say all you want about what he did in the past, but no one willing to be objective can say that Holland has shown that he has a strong handle, let alone any handle, on helping this team via trade or free agency lately. And like it or not (for the sake of some of ever-shifting argument), trade and free agency are still very important parts of this game.


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#43 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:26 AM

Pretty much. This exact team will compete for the cup within the next 2-3 years. With the amount of young talent coming up through the ranks, its safe to say we'll get better every year until Datsyuk retires.
I wouldn't mind a 2nd line center though. That's our only hole
Why delete the thread? Can't the Kenny lovers have a place to have constructive discussions that don't get derailed by certain posters who shall not be named?

Only there is not going to be much help coming through the ranks in the next 2 years that will address the weaknesses of this team. There are not that many big, crash the net scorer's around. Datsyuk and Zetterberg is already on the decline. Sooner or later these missing pieces must be addressed if this team is serious about contending for another Cup before the retirement of the aforementioned. Now would be the time to take a chance on Clarkson or Lecavalier, not three years from now.

Funny how you mention constructive discussion in a thread created in critique of people's frustration with Holland's inaction.
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#44 dat's sick

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:31 AM

I don't think anyone's arguing (well, at least...) that Holland wasn't a great GM at one point. What a lot of people are noting is that as we have moved far enough into the new era where we really started feeling the weight of the cap, Holland's struggled to show that he can maneuver well in free agency or with other teams via trade. That is a real problem, right now. It doesn't matter that once upon a time he did this or that; "this or that" from "way back when" have no bearing on "hear and now." Hear and now, he can't figure out how to sign or trade for difference makers, and he's tried plenty.

 

Holland's let people slip away that he shouldn't. He continues to cling to players he shouldn't. He overpays for mid-level talent based largely it seems on familiarity. He tries to underpay for high-level talent, which ultimately has failed every time. And when he fails, he's the king of revisionists, make no mistake. That guy finds a way to reshape everything that happened as part of some master plan, and it must be working, because there's plenty of non-critical thinkers who keep falling for it and praising Holland because of what he did in another era now long past us.

 

Oh, I guess it's easy forgetting in an instant that Holland was desperate to throw $9 million plus at both Suter and Parise last summer.

 

Oh, that's right, I remember now, Holland is so smart for not overpaying for free agents!

 

Now that we didn't sign them...

 

"We like our team."

 

I'm not trying to take anything away from what Holland has done, but if he was as great of a GM as people want to paint him to be in this cap era, he would not be struggling so much in the free agency and trade markets. You can say all you want about what he did in the past, but no one willing to be objective can say that Holland has shown that he has a strong handle, let alone any handle, on helping this team via trade or free agency lately. And like it or not (for the sake of some of ever-shifting argument), trade and free agency are still very important parts of this game.

We were competitive last season. We were the closest team to beating the Cup Champs in the playoffs. Holland may be too conservative sometimes and too loyal sometimes, but atleast he doesn't do a deal just to do a deal if he is afraid it could handcuff the team down the road. 

 

The Lecavalier situation is a perfect example. We all would have liked him RIGHT NOW, and so did Holland it seemed. But in 3 years? In 4? 5? He's already declined a lot from what he once was. Philly is known for handing out crazy contracts that put them in terrible situations after a couple of years, it's no surprise they were the ones willing to take that chance. 

 

Holland isn't the guy that is willing to put everything on one card (like Pittsburgh kinda did this season) and say "we want to win THIS YEAR", but he finds ways to put a decent team out there, even if this last season he got a bit lucky with Dekeyser falling into our laps. 



#45 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:37 AM

Only there is not going to be much help coming through the ranks in the next 2 years that will address the weaknesses of this team. There are not that many big, crash the net scorer's around. Datsyuk and Zetterberg is already on the decline. Sooner or later these missing pieces must be addressed if this team is serious about contending for another Cup before the retirement of the aforementioned. Now would be the time to take a chance on Clarkson or Lecavalier, not three years from now.

Funny how you mention constructive discussion in a thread created in critique of people's frustration with Holland's inaction.

I don't think there is an overreaction on the forum for the lack of leadership our GM has shown during the past 4-5 years. People are frustrated and rightly so, we are close to having a great team yet now seem content to sign washed up veterans that fail to contribute and fail to sign guys that might push us over the edge. I completely agree with RB its great we have guys coming up that will compete, it does us no good the next few years and when that talent is here Dats and our studs will be non-factors. Some people get so caught up in the cap and payroll they fail to see where we are failing in the free agent market. Paying Cleary $3mill just shows we aren't serious about skating the best team possible. Holland has been a no show for many years in my opinion.


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#46 WingedWheel91

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:47 AM

Only there is not going to be much help coming through the ranks in the next 2 years that will address the weaknesses of this team. There are not that many big, crash the net scorer's around. Datsyuk and Zetterberg is already on the decline. Sooner or later these missing pieces must be addressed if this team is serious about contending for another Cup before the retirement of the aforementioned. Now would be the time to take a chance on Clarkson or Lecavalier, not three years from now.
Funny how you mention constructive discussion in a thread created in critique of people's frustration with Holland's inaction.


The idea of the thread was also to look at the bigger picture. Living in Toronto, I can understand the frustration from fans who haven't seen there team in the playoffs in 9 years, or who sign Mike Komisarek, Jeff Finger, and Mikhail Grabovski to long term big money contracts. Or trade Tukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft, or how about Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton for Phil Kessel. These are moves that make it legitimate for a fan base to rally for a new GM.

In Detroit, we have been to the playoffs 22 years in a row. Won Cups and Presidents Trophies in both the non cap and salary cap eras and adapted from being a very good high spending team, to a very good cap strickened team. This year, in a "transition year" after losing Lidstrom, Stuart, Hudler and not cashing in last summer - we weren't supposed to make the playoffs. What happened? We took the Cup Champs to the brink and ran out of gas after two seven game series. Oh, and our farm team won the Calder Cup.

Not bad for a rebuild, I'm sure the Leafs fans would take that season after 9 of missing the playoffs and stockpiling draft picks every year. Which is another thing, how on earth have we been to the playoffs every year... Usually finishing with home ice advantage, while trading most of our 1st round picks, and somehow manage to draft a Calder Cup champion in the process? Probably our terrible GM....

#47 gcom007

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:51 AM

We were competitive last season. We were the closest team to beating the Cup Champs in the playoffs. Holland may be too conservative sometimes and too loyal sometimes, but atleast he doesn't do a deal just to do a deal if he is afraid it could handcuff the team down the road. 

 

The Lecavalier situation is a perfect example. We all would have liked him RIGHT NOW, and so did Holland it seemed. But in 3 years? In 4? 5? He's already declined a lot from what he once was. Philly is known for handing out crazy contracts that put them in terrible situations after a couple of years, it's no surprise they were the ones willing to take that chance. 

 

Holland isn't the guy that is willing to put everything on one card (like Pittsburgh kinda did this season) and say "we want to win THIS YEAR", but he finds ways to put a decent team out there, even if this last season he got a bit lucky with Dekeyser falling into our laps. 

 

So Lecavalier at $4.5 million for 5 years is handcuffing the team and whatever absurd contracts Holland was about to give Parise and Suter for far longer at twice the price were...what then?


-Elliot...does not panic.

#48 frankgrimes

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:59 AM

I wish the series against the Chicago would be seen in a different way. The Wings joked away a 3:1 series lead the Hawks played their 4 worst games of the season once they've turned it on the Wings didn't even have a chance - this team is not close to Chicagos level. Statements like the above are exactly why I would have been fine with missing the playoffs, because at least it would have shown the higher ups that changes are needed standing pat will not get the job done, period. Other teams a re improving getting better each season and the Wings are - like it or not - falling behind which also means it will get harder and harder to attract players in free agency. Holland has done a lot of great things and nobody will take it away from him, but the guy does have problems with overpaying you can't expect UFAs to go to a non contender and take a discount anymore, the current Wings edition is not close to the cup, so the only option to get these guys is to take the risk and sometimes overpay. It may or may not turn out but at least itshows the league, that the Wings are still a force to recognize come draft, free agency and trade deadline...something, this team hasen't been for almost 5 years now. It would be even longer if Hossa didn't take a paycut in order to get his chance at the cup. No this is not an overreaction its the pure and sad reality. Like others mentioned, there is still time but the top guys are getting signed soon so waiting and then sign some meh players will not make this team better or bring back the WOW or ROAR effect this team used to own.

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#49 WingedWheel91

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:25 AM

I wish the series against the Chicago would be seen in a different way. The Wings joked away a 3:1 series lead the Hawks played their 4 worst games of the season once they've turned it on the Wings didn't even have a chance - this team is not close to Chicagos level.

.


Big misconception for me.

Game 5 - we were outplayed in Chicagos building.
Game 6 - we outplayed them big time, had a lead after 2 and got screwed on a penalty shot call among others. (Don't get me started)
Game 7 - we lost in overtime in Chicago on a deflected shot.

So how exactly did we win 3/4 games before this stretch, make it close in two of the next 3 without Helm, Dekeyser, and Bertuzzi and still not be considered on there level?

Don't forget that we also played a tough stretch of hockey for 2 weeks to end the season, went 7 against Anaheim (a lot of travel) and then another 7 to the best team all season.

#50 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:40 AM

The idea of the thread was also to look at the bigger picture. Living in Toronto, I can understand the frustration from fans who haven't seen there team in the playoffs in 9 years, or who sign Mike Komisarek, Jeff Finger, and Mikhail Grabovski to long term big money contracts. Or trade Tukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft, or how about Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton for Phil Kessel. These are moves that make it legitimate for a fan base to rally for a new GM.

In Detroit, we have been to the playoffs 22 years in a row. Won Cups and Presidents Trophies in both the non cap and salary cap eras and adapted from being a very good high spending team, to a very good cap strickened team. This year, in a "transition year" after losing Lidstrom, Stuart, Hudler and not cashing in last summer - we weren't supposed to make the playoffs. What happened? We took the Cup Champs to the brink and ran out of gas after two seven game series. Oh, and our farm team won the Calder Cup.

Not bad for a rebuild, I'm sure the Leafs fans would take that season after 9 of missing the playoffs and stockpiling draft picks every year. Which is another thing, how on earth have we been to the playoffs every year... Usually finishing with home ice advantage, while trading most of our 1st round picks, and somehow manage to draft a Calder Cup champion in the process? Probably our terrible GM....

Imagine if our GM had leveraged some of the talent at the junior level to actually secure a player that would have pushed us over the edge in the Chicago series. If winning a Calder Cup is the goal Kenny succeeded. I could care less about it personally or about the successes we have at lower levels if it doesn't translate on the level that matters. We have too much talent and too many players that will never see the ice. I'd rather leverage some of that talent to secure something that would help us now.


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#51 Panic In Detroit

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:53 AM

Red Wings fans have to be the most spoiled fans in all of sport.



#52 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

The problem is the fans here see easy low risk fixes to help this team and there is nothing we can do about it. Signing players like Cleary (if he does get resigned) over throwing a little more money at a Clarkson or a Horton is the dumbest thing imaginable. That's where our frustrations lay. Easy decision that for some reason not being made.

#53 esteef

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:57 AM

Red Wings fans have to be the most spoiled fans in all of sport.

 

This is about as overused of a cliche here as "We like our team".  -1 for you sir.

 

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#54 Wheelchairsuperhero

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:00 PM

First I want to say that I understand where a lot of the Kenny critics are coming from. But at the same time how jaded have we become as a fan base? Kenny's not doing this or that that other gms are doing. To me that seems like he's not making the mistakes the other gms are making then. Have they made the playoffs for 20 consecutive years? Hell look at how excited Columbus fans got last season that their team ALMOST made the playoffs where the wings just keep doing it year after year despite Kenny's apparent failings, and I kind of think we take it for granted. I'm not saying KH is perfect of course, I just wish we appreciated that no team can boast the same consistency as the wings, who always find a way to win. Other teams have huge ups and downs. Great a few years only to be terrible the next 5. Until we stop making the post season (which I know can happen any year these days) and being cup contenders, because yes anyone who makes the playoffs is a cup contender these days, then I won't ***** just yet.

Sorry if that came off as a jumbled rant. I'm at work and had to type it up real quick lol.


Edit: and I don't want to sound like I'm calling all of us fans spoiled brats or anything. I think we've just become accustomed to a certain amount of success that other fan bases only wish they could experience. So until we miss the playoffs, every year is a good year!

Edited by Wheelchairsuperhero, 03 July 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#55 mjtm77

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:02 PM

 I get Holland has not "screwed up" like many gm's making a horrible move. (thank god)  But all you people defending him are just foolish. We have needed a top 6 forward for a while now and we have gotten nothing. Trade deadlines, free agency they come and go and we have gotten nothing. A great gm would find a way to do something and make it work. Now lets see if Holland actually does something... ( IMO, most likely will not)

 

My prediction as stated before is if we don't make any moves we will miss the playoffs. If we didn't have depth to replace Abby in the playoffs how on earth will we have depth to replace an injured Z or D for a period of time?

 

-  Coach Babs must be pissed. We are no longer a top 6 forward away from competing for the cup. We are a top 6 forward away from making the playoffs......


Edited by mjtm77, 03 July 2013 - 12:05 PM.

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#56 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:06 PM

I think we will continue to see Holland play it safe until the Wings start missing the playoffs and his job becomes threatened. It will be like Joe Dumars this year. He realizes he is close to on his way out so all of a sudden he starts mixing things up and exploring big trades and free agents. The wings are going to have to fall before Holland tries to pick them up.

#57 amato

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:07 PM

Red Wings fans have to be the most spoiled fans in all of sport.


false, tigers fans.

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#58 Jesusberg

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:26 PM

3. The point is simply that its better to pay Samuelsson to sit in the press box if we aren't going to spend the $10+ Million on THIS free agent class. Much like last year, we started and finished the season with a ton of cap space, so why waste our last buyout on a guy with one year left on his contract when Johan Franzen still has 7 left on his. Foolish to not see how he plays for one more season.

4. Cleary should not get a 3 year contract, but unfortunately I can see why he might. He was our third best player in the playoffs. He finished second in points, and played like a warrior most games. Moving to the eastern conference, he remains one of our ONLY players that plays the style of game you need to to get from most of your roster to battle in the east. Still more polished then ABBY and his point totals reflect that...

5. Next summer, while i know players will still be resigned the free agent class is still going to be MUCH better than this years, but the biggest wildcard will be the compliance buyouts. Next year, the window closes on any chance of cap relief for the remainder of this CBA. Names like Kovalchuk, Parise, Richards, Hossa, are already being talked about.

3. I guess that's a point of disagreement. I don't see anyone beyond Sammy who should be bought out. Do I think Mule is going to be effective in the last years of his contract? Probably not. I think we'd be a worse team in 2014-15 without him, though. Can you say the same about Samuelsson next year? Samuelsson being on the team is a hindrance to the future of this hockey club.

4. I see where you're coming from with Cleary, and I've loved every thing the guy's brought during his time here... but I feel like that time is done. He's almost completely ineffective during the year. He's a playoff warrior, and that counts for a ton, but I'm not sure it's at the expense of healthier bodies. The physicality of the East is wildly overrated. Los Angeles, St. Louis, San Jose... those teams aren't physical? I would much rather see guys like Nyquist and Tatar given a fair shake.

5. I do see a much higher quality in the class of players next year. I just think a good portion of those guys will be tied up. The cap will bump up some, too... so maybe teams hang onto guys unless they're truly going to liabilities going forward. And I must sound like a prospect slappy here, but guys like Ferraro, Sheahan and Jurco are going to be knocking on the door soon. Depending on how they fare next year, Jarnkrok and Pulkkinen too, perhaps. Hadn't even heard of Parise's name in buyout discussions, but he would be an interesting one for sure. He's a game breaker worth spending the cash on.

 



#59 Mitchmac33

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:42 PM

It always looks better next year, right Kenny?  Always next year...

 

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maybe next year...



#60 RedWingsDad

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:45 PM

Red Wings fans have to be the most spoiled fans in all of sport.

 

True that... spoiled by victory! It's not a bad thing... we expect the best because a high bar has been set in recent history.


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