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The Overreaction Thread


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#61 Dave

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:48 PM

Check out this lineup, WHOA! 

 

FORWARDS
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) 
Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) 
Gustav Nyquist ($2.501m) / Joakim Andersson ($1.250m) / Danny Cleary ($3.200m) 
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) / Drew Miller ($1.350m) 
Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) 
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) 
Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Brendan Smith ($1.200m) 
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.400m) 
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) / 
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m) 
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m) 

LTIR

Darren Helm ($2.125m) 

 

------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,753,379; BONUSES: $1,010,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $2,556,621

 

That top 6 is INCREDIBLE. Look out NHL, s***.just.got.real.


Edited by Dave, 03 July 2013 - 02:25 PM.


#62 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:48 PM

The idea of the thread was also to look at the bigger picture. Living in Toronto, I can understand the frustration from fans who haven't seen there team in the playoffs in 9 years, or who sign Mike Komisarek, Jeff Finger, and Mikhail Grabovski to long term big money contracts. Or trade Tukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft, or how about Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton for Phil Kessel. These are moves that make it legitimate for a fan base to rally for a new GM.
In Detroit, we have been to the playoffs 22 years in a row. Won Cups and Presidents Trophies in both the non cap and salary cap eras and adapted from being a very good high spending team, to a very good cap strickened team. This year, in a "transition year" after losing Lidstrom, Stuart, Hudler and not cashing in last summer - we weren't supposed to make the playoffs. What happened? We took the Cup Champs to the brink and ran out of gas after two seven game series. Oh, and our farm team won the Calder Cup.
Not bad for a rebuild, I'm sure the Leafs fans would take that season after 9 of missing the playoffs and stockpiling draft picks every year. Which is another thing, how on earth have we been to the playoffs every year... Usually finishing with home ice advantage, while trading most of our 1st round picks, and somehow manage to draft a Calder Cup champion in the process? Probably our terrible GM....

yes, it was a great but unexpected run. No reason we cannot repeat but with a different outcome. One or two players could be difference makers here. And let's be honest here, the team looked rather lost for a significant portion of the regular season. I credit Babcock for making the team play like they did for the last month.
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#63 chrisdetroit

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:08 PM

Excellent post.  Somebody other than Kenny is using some loigic...

 


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#64 T.Low

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

The idea of the thread was also to look at the bigger picture. Living in Toronto, I can understand the frustration from fans who haven't seen there team in the playoffs in 9 years, or who sign Mike Komisarek, Jeff Finger, and Mikhail Grabovski to long term big money contracts. Or trade Tukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft, or how about Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton for Phil Kessel. These are moves that make it legitimate for a fan base to rally for a new GM.

In Detroit, we have been to the playoffs 22 years in a row. Won Cups and Presidents Trophies in both the non cap and salary cap eras and adapted from being a very good high spending team, to a very good cap strickened team. This year, in a "transition year" after losing Lidstrom, Stuart, Hudler and not cashing in last summer - we weren't supposed to make the playoffs. What happened? We took the Cup Champs to the brink and ran out of gas after two seven game series. Oh, and our farm team won the Calder Cup.

Not bad for a rebuild, I'm sure the Leafs fans would take that season after 9 of missing the playoffs and stockpiling draft picks every year. Which is another thing, how on earth have we been to the playoffs every year... Usually finishing with home ice advantage, while trading most of our 1st round picks, and somehow manage to draft a Calder Cup champion in the process? Probably our terrible GM....

 

 

No doubt.

 

I live near Vancouver; let me tell you about a long list of bad GM's.  It is a super difficult job,for sure, and performed in a super dynamic set of circumstances.



#65 joshy207

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:46 PM

I thought I would start a thread tonight for those fans who take the time to look at the big picture - rather than broadcast any anger towards one of the best GM's in the NHL just because it didn't go our way today. So before you elect Paul Holmgren as our next GM, consider that since 2007 he has signed 6 contracts to a combined 61 years and $374.5 Millon to players who are NOT currently playing for Philadelphia. (Shea Weber, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Danny Briere, Ilya Bryzalov, and Chris Pronger) you can also add James Van Riemsdyk to that list.

Here are 5 overreaction's I have been exposed to since 10 AM this morning.

1. Vincent Lecavalier - I"ll admit I was intrigued by the possibility of him centering our second line next year...but that's about it. He is 33 years old, is already too slow, and now playing with house money for the duration of this ridiculous 5 year contract. My question is: How motivated is this Stanley Cup champ, who hasn't played more than 65 games or scored more than 25 goals since 09-10, and hasn't been a + player since 06-07 going to be for the next 5 years? Sadly enough, at the same age, Johan Franzen has actually put up better all around numbers since then and who on this site hasn't posted in a "trade Franzen" thread.

2. David Clarkson - Thank God. Why does anyone want this guy signed to a long term contract at 6+ Million per season. Those figures are entering Datsyuk range, and are already in Zetterberg range. Congratulatons on your one 30 goal season Dave, but considering that Hakan Loob, Stephane Richer, Jonathon Cheechoo, Wayne Babych and Dino Cicarelli all scored 50 once... No Thanks.

3. Buyouts - There are like 1 or 2 good centres left in this years free agent crop that 29 other teams have interest in, meaning we probably aren't going to get who we want (Stephen Weiss) because someone will overspend when it's the wrong thing to do (Philadelphia). Collatarally, this means that with 10+ million in the bank and very few targets to spend it on right now, why would we burn our last compliance buyout on either Sammy or Bert who both have 1 year remaining on their contracts, when we still have 4 players signed until at least 2019. The point is, we aren't spending 10 Mill this summer on free agents meaning there is no point in getting rid of any assets simply for cap relief.

4. Lack of Team Talent? - We played Chicago harder than anyone they met en route to winning the cup, and had 3 chances to eliminate them. As of right now, the team will be adding Helm, Bertuzzi, Dekeyser, and Tatar to next years full time roster and losing Filpulla and White for sure. Brunner and Cleary remain to be seen, but can someone tell me how next years team isn't better than last years based on injuries alone, and before you take into account the development of all of our rookies?

5. The Time Is Now - Has anyone seen next years free agent class? Before you erase Vincent Lecavalier from your CapGeek thread team, and visit nhltraderumours.com to pencil someone else into our top 6 while maintaining about $14,000 in Cap Space, consider the future.

 

I also agree with you on Lecavalier (length of contract) and Clarkson (value of contract), but disagree on the rest.

 

The buyouts are all about roster space for younger players and (hopefully) an incoming free agent or two.  Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Smith, DeKeyser, and Lashoff need to have regular roles on this team.  Tatar and Nyquist should probably start the season on the top 2 lines, see how they do with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen.  If it isn't working, then make a change.  DeKeyser, if he plays the way he did in his short stint last year, will be the #2 defenseman by Thanksgiving.  Lashoff is a capable, defense-first guy, something this team lacks.  He should rotate in and out of the 3rd pairing.

 

Talent and hard work are two completely different things.  Some players have talent, some work hard, and some do both.  Same with teams.  Detroit got a 3-1 lead over Chicago by playing hard and getting under Chicago's skin.  Toews was completely neutralized for the first half of that series, and was actually a detriment to his team because of the way the Wings played against him.  That was hard work, not talent, on the Wings' part.  Based on talent, this team has 3 top-6 forwards and 1 top-3 defenseman right now.  The rest are bottom-6 and bottom-3 guys.

 

The same thing was said last year about this year's FA class.  And the year before about last year's class.  And so on and so on.  Most of the good ones will re-sign with their current teams.

 

Holland has exposed himself over the last few years.  This team has not gotten better.  Some of its draft picks and undrafted free agents are working out, some will be very good in the near future.  But he has not added significant pieces in forever.  He also has not gotten rid of enough "dead weight" either.  He hangs on to guys for too long.  He overvalues his own players and undervalues everyone else's.  He seems reluctant, if not downright afraid, to make a move.  One thing he does very well is work with the guys on his staff, listens to them and trusts their opinions.  But how much of Holland's "magic" really was Scotty Bowman, Jim Nill, his scouts, and Mike Ilitch's wallet?  The more time goes on, I think it's becoming evident that it's at least a big part of it.



#66 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:51 PM

 
I also agree with you on Lecavalier (length of contract) and Clarkson (value of contract), but disagree on the rest.
 
The buyouts are all about roster space for younger players and (hopefully) an incoming free agent or two.  Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Smith, DeKeyser, and Lashoff need to have regular roles on this team.  Tatar and Nyquist should probably start the season on the top 2 lines, see how they do with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen.  If it isn't working, then make a change.  DeKeyser, if he plays the way he did in his short stint last year, will be the #2 defenseman by Thanksgiving.  Lashoff is a capable, defense-first guy, something this team lacks.  He should rotate in and out of the 3rd pairing.
 
Talent and hard work are two completely different things.  Some players have talent, some work hard, and some do both.  Same with teams.  Detroit got a 3-1 lead over Chicago by playing hard and getting under Chicago's skin.  Toews was completely neutralized for the first half of that series, and was actually a detriment to his team because of the way the Wings played against him.  That was hard work, not talent, on the Wings' part.  Based on talent, this team has 3 top-6 forwards and 1 top-3 defenseman right now.  The rest are bottom-6 and bottom-3 guys.
 
The same thing was said last year about this year's FA class.  And the year before about last year's class.  And so on and so on.  Most of the good ones will re-sign with their current teams.
 
Holland has exposed himself over the last few years.  This team has not gotten better.  Some of its draft picks and undrafted free agents are working out, some will be very good in the near future.  But he has not added significant pieces in forever.  He also has not gotten rid of enough "dead weight" either.  He hangs on to guys for too long.  He overvalues his own players and undervalues everyone else's.  He seems reluctant, if not downright afraid, to make a move.  One thing he does very well is work with the guys on his staff, listens to them and trusts their opinions.  But how much of Holland's "magic" really was Scotty Bowman, Jim Nill, his scouts, and Mike Ilitch's wallet?  The more time goes on, I think it's becoming evident that it's at least a big part of it.


Why was Holland so successful? Two words: Hakan Andersson.

#67 Serratoni

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:20 PM

Red Wings fans have to be the most spoiled fans in all of sport.

'

This statement has to be one of the most lazy, thoughtless cliches in all of sports fandom. Just because fans want their team to improve or because they criticize moves or the lack thereof does not make those fans "spoiled." It makes them passionate. That's the definition of being a fan.



#68 joshy207

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:40 PM

Why was Holland so successful? Two words: Hakan Andersson.

 

He has played an enormous role, for sure.  But it hasn't been just Andersson...



#69 Ally

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:30 AM

The people demanding Kenny's head for not making big trades and getting UFAs to sign here are the same people that will demand Kenny's head when we lost a great prospect in a trade and he becomes a star somewhere else or when someone signs a big contract with us and then doesn't immediately score the trillion goals they hoped he would.
Lose/Lose for poor Mr. Holland

 
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#70 DeGraa55

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:21 AM

The people demanding Kenny's head for not making big trades and getting UFAs to sign here are the same people that will demand Kenny's head when we lost a great prospect in a trade and he becomes a star somewhere else or when someone signs a big contract with us and then doesn't immediately score the trillion goals they hoped he would.
Lose/Lose for poor Mr. Holland



Not at all. He just has not made good decisions these last few years.

#71 Crymson

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:01 AM

If we dont get Vanek, Kenny needs to go.

 

Because giving up a bunch of assets for one year of Vanek would be wise?


The Wings are FAR away from being stanley cup contenders, they would be lucky making the playoffs this year.

 

Umm, OK... after being one goal from the conference finals, the Wings would be lucky to make the playoffs next season? I don't get it. This makes as much sense as your persistent claims that Clarkson is big, which is to say not much.


 

3. This is my primary disagreement. I have seen others on here wanting him bought out to add some fancy new free agent to the team. I couldn't care less about the cap hit coming off the books if a Samuelsson buyout were to occur; it's about making room on the roster for the younger guys. The man can barely stay healthy for more than a handful of games at a time, and if he does... what real good does he do? Do you want him in your top 6, seriously? He's a 3 million dollar third liner. If his presence on the team next season means that one of Tatar or Nyquist does not have a spot, it's absolute garbage. Cap isn't the issue here - it's a useless player taking away from the progress of others.

 

If the league sides with his agent's claim that he's injured, the Wings cannot buy him out. They can, however, dump him in the minors, and that's exactly what I hope they'll do in response to his babyish, highly pretentious behavior.



#72 mjtm77

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:07 AM

I am  going to  be like that guy in the sharks series with his gurantees about winning, but ill be right. If we stand put and don't make any moves WE WILL MISS THE PLAYOFFS. I guarantee it.


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#73 Crymson

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:36 AM

I am  going to  be like that guy in the sharks series with his gurantees about winning, but ill be right. If we stand put and don't make any moves WE WILL MISS THE PLAYOFFS. I guarantee it.

 

It sure is easy to make guarantees when it means putting nothing on the line.



#74 mjtm77

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:17 AM

 

It sure is easy to make guarantees when it means putting nothing on the line.

its a hockey form.

Would you like me to bet my house? all I am saying is the wings are going to struggle to make the playoffs and its all cause of Holland making dump decisions/ no decisions  


Edited by mjtm77, 04 July 2013 - 11:17 AM.

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#75 AtomicPunk

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:42 AM

Moving to the East, it might not be a stretch to say they will miss the playoffs. I can think of a lot of teams over there who don't make the playoffs at the last minute. They will be playing Pittsbugh, Boston, NYR, Philly a lot more and not getting those Blue Jackets 8 times a year. It's not a stretch to say they won't make it. It'll be close.


Edited by AtomicPunk, 04 July 2013 - 11:44 AM.

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#76 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

Moving to the East, it might not be a stretch to say they will miss the playoffs. I can think of a lot of teams over there who don't make the playoffs at the last minute. They will be playing Pittsbugh, Boston, NYR, Philly a lot more and not getting those Blue Jackets 8 times a year. It's not a stretch to say they won't make it. It'll be close.


Those same Blue Jackets that had our number this year?

#77 Wingsfan72

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:00 PM

July 4th and we're already missing the playoffs next season?  Sometimes this forum gets pretty sad.




 
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#78 frankgrimes

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:03 PM

I don't think being realistic is a stretch. Let's be honest this team has not played a full season yet and they've made the playoffs during the last games a lot can happen in a full 82 games season. Improvements need to be made thats for sure. Like others have mentioned Detroit is going to face new competition and some tough teams in the east? Can they compete with Boston, Pittsburgh, Ottawa and the Rangers 3 of these are having outstanding goaltending and tight defensive first approach, so missing the playoffs for the first time since 22 years is a real possibility here. If the Flyes somehow get Thomas thinks are going to look even worse.

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#79 Playmaker

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:09 PM

I don't get this fear of the Eastern Conference. Philly blows,the NYR are in disarray. Pittsburgh just made another early playoff exit and have further handcuffed themselves with Letang's contract. Toronto...well, nuff said...Ottawa has had one good season. We don't get Columbus (who I think beat us most every game last year and is greatly improved), but we do have to face the mighty Marlins, er  Panthers and the floundering Lightning(Oh yeah, don't we wish we had their GM?) The "big physical East" is a way overblown misnomer...

 

No GM makes all the right moves.  Overall, Holland has done well on the personnel side as well as the business side (I know fans don't realize there are two sides)  I did think that this season was the epiphany in regards to young players and we'd rid ourselves of the over priced veterans and lose the over ripe philosophy.  I don't have a problem at times with Holland giving older players an opportunity.  I just don't get why he always adds on too many years and too much money to these contracts.  I got the thinking behind signing Sammy since we had no good PP point men and he had done it before.  But 2 years, NTC at 3 mill?  Was there anyone else even considering signing this guy?  Same for Carlo.  A good thought and I don't really see that he was the best candidate for the buyout considering how quickly injuries can happen on D.  Tootoo as well.  The thought process was sound in adding a physical player, but 3 years?  Who else was really looking at him?  I'm befuddled that there could actually be discussion (hoping it's baseless rumor at this point) of signing an obviously declining often injured guy like Daniel Cleary to a THREE YEAR DEAL??!???!!  Okay, maybe one year at 2.5 or under.  I don't like the guy and want him gone, but I could accept that.  3 years at 3 million makes me wonder who he's blowing.  It makes no sense whatsoever.



#80 MidMichSteve

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:14 PM

'

This statement has to be one of the most lazy, thoughtless cliches in all of sports fandom. Just because fans want their team to improve or because they criticize moves or the lack thereof does not make those fans "spoiled." It makes them passionate. That's the definition of being a fan.

I think the term fan comes from the word fanatic.

fa·nat·ic [fuh-nat-ik]
noun
1.
a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.

Edited by MidMichSteve, 04 July 2013 - 12:15 PM.

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