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How much is too much?


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#21 wheelchairwing

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:58 PM

So ... are there any opportunities that look promising in terms of next year's free agents? I have my doubts as to whether anything really gets done this off-season.  Does anyone think these overpayments to free agents will eventually slow down in the coming years?  I look at the salaries that they are commanding and I have to remind myself that this is not the NBA.  If we try to get any type of forward to play on the top two lines, I only see it happening through a trade where we will have to give up some of our valuable assets.  I've seen a lot of people complaining about the high prices for players.  While I will agree with you that the prices are somewhat exorbitant, this is the current reality of NHL free agency.  The only way we *might* be able to get players to sign less expensive contracts is if we draft them, develop them, and so on.  At the same time, I feel that there has to be a point where we have to bring in new blood, even if it means overpaying.  If the organization cannot evolve with the changing dynamics of the business, it is looking like it will be a topsy-turvy decade, with everyone (hypothetically) biting their nails and wondering if Kenny will actually re-sign Tatar and "player X" to the $6-9+million that they could be asking for in the coming years ... I know it might sound silly, but that is what I see. I think we will certainly make the playoff for each of the next four years, I just want the organization to make sure that we are continuously bridging the gap, willing to bring in young guns, but also willing to bring in veterans that can help take us to the next level.  I don't know if I have made any sense. I probably just sound like everyone else.  Meanwhile, life goes on...



#22 DeGraa55

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:19 PM

UFA's will be inherently over priced because demand is high and supply is low.  They will ruin the salary structure of your team, and quite possibly the attitude of the room.
 
We all know that Holland and Illitch understood after the '05 CBA that prices for UFA's would be waaaay hyper inflated and therefore went to a philosophy of building a team through the draft.
 
As you see, Wings fans are having a difficult time living on a budget when we never had to before.  We can't handle not buying every Lecavalier and Horton that we see become available, like the good ole days of  buying up a Lucky Luc and having no room for him except on the 4rth line.
 
That is one reason winning the Calder Cup was so significant.




You contradict yourself. Vinny for 4.5 is a really good deal when looking at the market. You look at Horton clarkson and Vinny. Vinny is the best deal by far. Also Weiss wants 4m someone said? That's a huge overpayment as he Is not that good.

#23 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:00 PM

Paying too much isn't the issue, paying too much to players who KH overvalues is. We could have had two dynamic players inserted in our offense if we wanted to...easily.

 

Samuelsson ($3M) +  Cleary  ($3M) = Clarkson

Tootoo  ($1.9M) + Bertuzzi  (2.07M) +Eaves ($1.2M) = Lecavalier


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#24 stillwater

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:03 PM

So you think it's a good idea to sign Clarkson at $6 million for 7-years and Vinny to a 5-year deal?



#25 T.Low

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:06 PM

You contradict yourself. Vinny for 4.5 is a really good deal when looking at the market. You look at Horton clarkson and Vinny. Vinny is the best deal by far. Also Weiss wants 4m someone said? That's a huge overpayment as he Is not that good.

 

 

Ken Holland and Jim Nill didn't think so.



#26 superstarsingh

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:07 PM

You contradict yourself. Vinny for 4.5 is a really good deal when looking at the market. You look at Horton clarkson and Vinny. Vinny is the best deal by far. Also Weiss wants 4m someone said? That's a huge overpayment as he Is not that good.

While the 4.5 million per season for Vinny is a really good deal, the length of the deal and the full no trade clause are problematic. I do agree that Vinny is the best and most proven player of those mentioned but he is now unavailable. Fil and Weiss will get overpaid because they are viable centres in a weak free agent class. Horton and Clarkson have an ability to score goals and bring grit and physicality to the table and teams are always going to be in the market for such. As mentioned by others, free agency differs from year to year and really does depend on the needs of teams and who is available. 



#27 DeGraa55

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:28 PM

Ken Holland and Jim Nill didn't think so.



And they're wrong. FACT. Vinny> clearly, Sammy, cola, too too.

While the 4.5 million per season for Vinny is a really good deal, the length of the deal and the full no trade clause are problematic. I do agree that Vinny is the best and most proven player of those mentioned but he is now unavailable. Fil and Weiss will get overpaid because they are viable centres in a weak free agent class. Horton and Clarkson have an ability to score goals and bring grit and physicality to the table and teams are always going to be in the market for such. As mentioned by others, free agency differs from year to year and really does depend on the needs of teams and who is available.



I bet he would of done 5m for 4 years.


You also got yo remember his five year deal is better thanost deals on our team and its better than what the likes of Horton or clarkson are looking for. Its all about market value and vinnys deal is a steal.

#28 superstarsingh

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

I bet he would of done 5m for 4 years.


You also got yo remember his five year deal is better thanost deals on our team and its better than what the likes of Horton or clarkson are looking for. Its all about market value and vinnys deal is a steal.

I would have done 5m for 3 or maaaybe 4 years but to give an aging player a full no trade clause is questionable. I say this because having Vinny around for too long would eventually take away opportunities from Sheahan and Jarnkrok. I was big on having Vinny because he provides a dimension that this team lacks and at 33 and declining, he brings far more to the table than Fil ever has or ever will. Too bad it didn't work out. 



#29 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:40 PM

So you think it's a good idea to sign Clarkson at $6 million for 7-years and Vinny to a 5-year deal?

I think we need to consolidate some of the 16 forwards on the roster to obtain higher quality talent to help push us over the edge. I mean really 16 guys under contract (if Cleary and Brunner sign)?? Yes spend a little

money on one or two guys that are difference makers and you can pare down on some of the 16 reasonably priced guys.


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#30 _SP_

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:15 PM

"Competitive monopoly" is a rather unique situation that appears in sports more so than other areas of the marketplace. I haven't seen anyone post about it yet, but it's really a big reason on why UFA prices can be so ridiculous.

For example; While there may be five 2C's that are capable of 25 goals 35 assists per year, there is only one Vinny Lecavalier.

If you want a Vinny Lecavalier on your team, the local Sporting goods store does not have five Vinny Lecavaliers on the shelf. There is only one in all of the world.

You could buy a Weiss or a Filp instead, but its not the same as a Vinny. Vinny Lecavalier has a monopoly on Vinny Lecavalier's.  If you want one, you are going to have to bid against everyone else that wants one too.

When you have a monopoly on something,you are a price maker, not a price taker.

The salary cap was meant to level the playing field in regards to acquisition powers. It has proven to be kryptonite to Illitches checkbook and has taken the Mickey out of Hollands off-season. He has chosen not to overpay during UFA season. And I can't blame him. There is only so much pie to slice up for your team.

 

Quite honestly, the average fan simply doesn't understand this concept.  I post quite a bit about money and financial aspects of sports, because that's what my background is in.  Our fellow fans might be advertising specialists, HVAC installers, car dealers, registered nurses, personal trainers, etc.  They would understand things that I don't and be able to explain them to me while I stare back like a deer in headlights.  I might not understand the full impact an Achilles injury the way the trainer would or discuss the team's marketing plan the way the advertising specialist does; the same way they likely don't understand the business aspect of the sports world.  I don't fault them and I certainly don't look down on them- we all have a better understanding of what it is we actually do day-to-day.  Sure, anyone can play Be a GM Mode on NHL12, but playing arm-chair GM is a heck of a lot different than running a multi-million dollar business, which is a big part of Ken Holland's job.  Hell, most posters have never even seen an NHL contract, let alone read every line.  It's so easy to read the numbers on the ticker at the bottom of the TV screen, but it's so much more complicated than that.  Even the salary cap is complicated- teams don't simply sign x number of players for y amount of money and come up with z salary total (x*y=z)... there's so much more involved.

That's why I try to stay out of financial discussions- I know that I know what I'm talking about, but a) I'm completely anonymous to everyone on here and b) I don't like being lectured to anymore than anyone else on here.  It's hard explaining accounting and business concepts to people that don't do it everyday.  But I want to commend you for this post, you did an excellent job of describing the general concept of free agency in the big four sports.  I think many folks on here will be appreciative of it, even if they aren't in the financial world. 

For everyone else: Just remember, free agency doesn't come down to whether or not Holland wants to pay x-dollars to b-free agent.  So cut the guy a little slack, he's competing with 29 other teams over a laundry list of factors that go into each and every contract.   It's not just a matter of whether Holland appreciates a player's value or not.



#31 Seraph

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:38 PM

Any team that is built to win or building to win will not obtain these players. The teams with cap space and money to burn will throw money at these players and effectively dilute the free agents across the league each year. We are now a drafting team and a hold onto our assets team.

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#32 joshy207

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:55 PM

Any team that is built to win or building to win will not obtain these players. The teams with cap space and money to burn will throw money at these players and effectively dilute the free agents across the league each year. We are now a drafting team and a hold onto our assets team.

 

Teams that are built/building to win might acquire one of those players as a "final piece", not as a centerpiece.

 

Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Tootoo, and Gustavsson are more liability than asset.  Ken Holland has always "hung on to assets", the last regular roster player he traded away was Slava Kozlov in 2001.



#33 stillwater

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:02 PM

I think we need to consolidate some of the 16 forwards on the roster to obtain higher quality talent to help push us over the edge. I mean really 16 guys under contract (if Cleary and Brunner sign)?? Yes spend a little

money on one or two guys that are difference makers and you can pare down on some of the 16 reasonably priced guys.

 

If by consolidate, you mean trade for a top-sixer in a 3-1 deal, I agree.

 

That's what Holland stated he was looking for. How about getting Jamie Benn out of the Dallas hell he's in. Good Canadian boy.



#34 dobbles

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:08 PM

i think you guys are looking at it all wrong. its not an issue of supply and demand. its an issue of cap circumvention. GM's still are not held accountable for bad contracts. sign a bad contract? bury it in the minors, loan the player to europe, amnesty buyout, regular buyout,place on LTIR for multipler years, etc etc... or even structure the contract to take advantage of the cap rules. 

 

now, many of those things were taken care of in the new CBA. so maybe it will get better. but huge contracts to overrated free agents will immediately end once teams like NYR, PHI, TOR, and MTL don't have the cap room to offer insanely stupid contracts. but since players like redden, pronger, huet, and many others can get off the cap, free agency will continue to be stupid crazy. 


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#35 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:13 PM

Never too much


Edited by GMRwings1983, 03 July 2013 - 08:14 PM.

According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#36 The Axe

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:16 PM

Never too much


Cue Kenny Loggins

#37 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:17 PM

Cue Kenny Loggins

 

No.  I was thinking this  

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=pNj9bXKGOiI


According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#38 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:28 PM

 

If by consolidate, you mean trade for a top-sixer in a 3-1 deal, I agree.

 

That's what Holland stated he was looking for. How about getting Jamie Benn out of the Dallas hell he's in. Good Canadian boy.

That's exactly what I mean. We have accumulated too many decent players at fair salary's (some not so fair). I'd gladly give up 3 of these guys to get a playmaker up front on our club.

The names aren't important to me, the talent is. Everyone whines about $6Mill per year yet we pay that to three guys, most of whom will ride the pine all year. We will play lowball games

with Brunner and lose him while securing Cleary for the next three years. I just don't get what we are doing.


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#39 The Axe

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:34 PM

 
No.  I was thinking this  
 
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=pNj9bXKGOiI


I think you were more like this:



#40 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:02 PM

 

Quite honestly, the average fan simply doesn't understand this concept.  I post quite a bit about money and financial aspects of sports, because that's what my background is in.  Our fellow fans might be advertising specialists, HVAC installers, car dealers, registered nurses, personal trainers, etc.  They would understand things that I don't and be able to explain them to me while I stare back like a deer in headlights.  I might not understand the full impact an Achilles injury the way the trainer would or discuss the team's marketing plan the way the advertising specialist does; the same way they likely don't understand the business aspect of the sports world.  I don't fault them and I certainly don't look down on them- we all have a better understanding of what it is we actually do day-to-day.  Sure, anyone can play Be a GM Mode on NHL12, but playing arm-chair GM is a heck of a lot different than running a multi-million dollar business, which is a big part of Ken Holland's job.  Hell, most posters have never even seen an NHL contract, let alone read every line.  It's so easy to read the numbers on the ticker at the bottom of the TV screen, but it's so much more complicated than that.  Even the salary cap is complicated- teams don't simply sign x number of players for y amount of money and come up with z salary total (x*y=z)... there's so much more involved.

That's why I try to stay out of financial discussions- I know that I know what I'm talking about, but a) I'm completely anonymous to everyone on here and b) I don't like being lectured to anymore than anyone else on here.  It's hard explaining accounting and business concepts to people that don't do it everyday.  But I want to commend you for this post, you did an excellent job of describing the general concept of free agency in the big four sports.  I think many folks on here will be appreciative of it, even if they aren't in the financial world. 

For everyone else: Just remember, free agency doesn't come down to whether or not Holland wants to pay x-dollars to b-free agent.  So cut the guy a little slack, he's competing with 29 other teams over a laundry list of factors that go into each and every contract.   It's not just a matter of whether Holland appreciates a player's value or not.

 

L....O....L

 

Don't be so modest...







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