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Filppula to Tampa 5 yr $5 million


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#101 Crymson

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:12 PM

 

The thread was barely 2 weeks old when I posted, if even. That counts as a "resurrection"? :confused1:

 

My intent wasn't to say that Wiess sucks (I'm sure he's good, but he will be weighed down from Franzen just like Filppula was) or Holland sucks but to point out that Filppula is already having a huge impact on his new team and is getting tons of credit for things he never got credit for (short of myself and an occasional couple others) here.

 

In other words: Filppula has already had a giant impact on his team and his success in this season is assured, and---unlike those of the team that you cheer for---the fans of the Lightning are wise enough to appreciate things about him that only yourself and perhaps a few other prophets on this forum had the necessary vision for.

 

 

In reality: Give us a break. Filppula has played only three games for the Lightning, and this is a miniscule sample size. The history of the NHL is veritably littered with quick starts that did not last, and your data therefore provides no basis for your assertions. Filppula had an atrocious 2013 season, especially when contrasted against his production in the previous season. There was little to appreciate about his performance all around, and his salary demands were therefore absurd.



#102 Lonewuhf

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

What I don't understand is the season he got 60 points he played with good players the majority of the year. During the other seasons his linemates were... Cleary? Franzen? Samuelsson? Hudler? Leino?  You guys have always judged Fil on his production when on a line with either s***ty, or lazy players, but never gave him credit when he performed up to expectations playing with players he SHOULD have been paired with. Blame Fil all you want, this team is currently lined with older, lazy, or just plain mediocre players. This offseason arguably made it worse with the resigning of Cleary and putting our 2 huge young prospects either in the minors or on the bench. I'd put money (and have actually, drafted Fil on my fantasy team) that Fil will hit 60+ points this season. He's got the talent, and now the linemates to do it.

 

In Kenny you all trust, how many times does he have to make mistakes for you to realize that he's taking the team in a bad direction?



#103 gcom007

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:16 PM

So Filppula scored his team's only goal in his first game, shootout winner in the next, assist on the OT GWG in his third game and scored 2 sick goals tonight along with being +3 and 59% on the faceoff. On the other hand, our "big upgrade" has scored one goal, is -1 and 41% on the faceoff. Nice off season Kenny.


If Flip was as predictable and consistent as a goal scorer as you are as a poster on this message board, you'd have a real good point.
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#104 Crymson

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:09 PM



So Filppula scored his team's only goal in his first game, shootout winner in the next, assist on the OT GWG in his third game and scored 2 sick goals tonight along with being +3 and 59% on the faceoff. On the other hand, our "big upgrade" has scored one goal, is -1 and 41% on the faceoff. Nice off season Kenny.

 

In the name of exploring this claim, as well as exposing the bias of its issuer, let's look at these two supposed "sick goals." Video is below; the goals are at 2:20 and 2:30.

 

 

A few pertinent facts about these goals:

  • They came against a team that is currently worst in the league in goals against, having given up more than four per game thus far.
  • They came against a goalie having an atrocious game.
  • They were not "sick goals." The first was a standard shot taken uncontested from the slot through a screen; the fact that he was so open was a failure on the part of the Panthers. The second went in on account of awful goaltending. That shot should plainly never have gone in, and Markstrom was pulled from the game after allowing it.

As for Filppula's first goal of the season: Brewer did all the work (video here).

 

It seems the message behind your efforts is "I told you so." If that is the case (as it surely is), then please do note that there are many here perfectly capable of dissecting the material you use to support your claims.


Edited by Crymson, 12 October 2013 - 07:11 PM.


#105 Z and D for the C

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:28 AM

As for Filppula's first goal of the season: Brewer did all the work (video here).


I guess Zetterberg didn't really score 40 goals ever in his career because some of them came, surely, because Datsyuk did all the work. Also, thanks for proving my point that Filppula will excel with linemates who actually do work, unlike the majority of his time spent with the Wings, which is why he never did very well. As will also be proven when Wiess fails to put up numbers with Franzen on his wing.

And, however you opposite-of-sugar-coat it, both of those goals were great shots, especially for someone like Filppula who isn't that much of a goal scorer.

And I like how you call me biased yet are trying so hard to put down Filppula so as to not possibly entertain the fact that Holland made the wrong move by not keeping Filppula. Mark my words (as everything I've said about Filppula has been right in the past, no one said he would break 60 points, but he almost got 70, just like I've always said he was capable of), Filppula will have another career year and emerge as a force and great signing by Yzerman.

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#106 Doc Holliday

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

Yeah, I'm sure Filppula's 57% shooting percentage is going to hold up for the entire season.

 

He's had a great start, but let's wait a bit till we consider Filppula the next big superstar (even ignoring the fact the odds of him playing like that here were slim to none).


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#107 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:05 AM

I heard Yzerman is considering coming out of retirement, just so he can play with Filppula on the same line.  

 

:hehe:


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#108 Crymson

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:43 AM

I guess Zetterberg didn't really score 40 goals ever in his career because some of them came, surely, because Datsyuk did all the work. Also, thanks for proving my point that Filppula will excel with linemates who actually do work, unlike the majority of his time spent with the Wings, which is why he never did very well. As will also be proven when Wiess fails to put up numbers with Franzen on his wing.

 

So now you're saying that Filppula did poorly because his linemates on the Wings were a bunch of lazy lugs. Wow. No offense, but if that's really how you feel, then perhaps you should go cheer for the Lightning instead. We'll all remain here to watch this team full of floaters that has, miraculously, somehow managed to outperform the Lightning in all but one of the past seven seasons.

 

By the way, Eric Brewer is a defenseman.

 

And, however you opposite-of-sugar-coat it, both of those goals were great shots, especially for someone like Filppula who isn't that much of a goal scorer.

 

The first was not a remarkable shot, and the second should never have gone in. Also, this classification of Filppula as a poor goal scorer doesn't fit with your descriptions of him, nor the 2011-2012 season performance (in which he scored 23 goals) that you often make reference to in these discussions. That specification thus sounds like nothing more than a convenience in discourse, because, in an effort to support one of your points, you're effectively putting down the guy whose good qualities you are otherwise attempting to exaggerate.
 

And I like how you call me biased yet are trying so hard to put down Filppula so as to not possibly entertain the fact that Holland made the wrong move by not keeping Filppula. Mark my words (as everything I've said about Filppula has been right in the past, no one said he would break 60 points, but he almost got 70, just like I've always said he was capable of), Filppula will have another career year and emerge as a force and great signing by Yzerman.

 

Oh, come on. That is patently false. His 2011-2012 season saw you loudly sing praises of Filppula, as you were happy that he had finally (or so it seemed) had his breakout season. True, there wasn't anything inherently wrong with that---and the rest of us were happy to see it also---but it absolutely did not gel with the atrocious performance he put up in the next season, during which he had his worst points-per-game ratio since his rookie campaign. It would be most pretentious of you to claim that you saw this coming, when in fact the opposite is true.

 

My response to your sentiments is not an attempt to defend Holland---though I think he requires no defense for his decision to not pay $5m per year to a player who has had only one good season and had just completed the worst season of his career---but rather to dispute what is in my opinion a claim based on exaggerated information and a wholly insufficient sample size.


Edited by Crymson, 13 October 2013 - 11:49 AM.


#109 Dabura

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:02 PM

I do kinda miss Flip. I was all for the Weiss signing, but I'll admit, he's looking really bad right now. But I'm sure he'll get better as he gets more comfortable. All those years on the Panthers, a team that really couldn't be more different than the Wings...that's a long time and a lot of stuff to unlearn. Sort of the same deal for Flip, I guess, but it might be easier for him, for several reasons.


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#110 Z and D for the C

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:32 PM

So now you're saying that Filppula did poorly because his linemates on the Wings were a bunch of lazy lugs. Wow. No offense, but if that's really how you feel, then perhaps you should go cheer for the Lightning instead.


I'm sorry, but have you and I been watching different National Hockey Leagues? One in which Franzen, Sameulsson, Bertuzzi and Cleary are skilled workhorses who make the players around them better?

And I've been saying for years, with basically everyone telling me I was wrong, that Filppula had 70 point potential. His 66 point season was a long time coming, which proved me right, and the next year was simply an off year in which he was weighed down by lazy linemates, a shortened season which he was injured leading up to and the pressure of a contract year. He'll scored 60 again this year, if not 70 or more.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 13 October 2013 - 10:38 PM.

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#111 Z and D for the C

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:43 PM

Sort of the same deal for Flip,


Fil has had a goal or assist in every game with the lightning. That is pretty much the opposite of Weiss so far.


Yeah, we don't know what the next 78 games are going to bring, but I'm willing to bet at the end of the year most people will be wishing we resigned Filppula for $5 million instead of Weiss. Even if Weiss matches Filppula's offensive output, will he do half of the other things Filppula does? Unlikely.

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#112 Euro_Twins

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:35 AM

Fil has had a goal or assist in every game with the lightning. That is pretty much the opposite of Weiss so far.


Yeah, we don't know what the next 78 games are going to bring, but I'm willing to bet at the end of the year most people will be wishing we resigned Filppula for $5 million instead of Weiss. Even if Weiss matches Filppula's offensive output, will he do half of the other things Filppula does? Unlikely.


Meh, I like Weiss more personally. He is more gritty willimg to crash and bang. We have lots of skill players like flip, we needed a Weiss, he will be fine I'm sure and I will miss flip, but only cause I liked him, but the team is better off I think. Everyone was calling for a change of scenery, we can't win with the same roster, all that stuff, and then as soon as we get it, everyone panics when it doesn't immediately pay off. Chemistry takes time sometimes, Weiss and alfie will get going real soon.

#113 rick zombo

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:17 AM

Comparing styles? Filpulla "looks" like the better hockey player. He's has better high-end speed. He's more graceful. Better hands. More patience with the puck.

And guess why?

Because he plays on the perimeter where he has room.

Weiss looks sloppier and more chaotic/jumbled out there because he's trying to make plays in the slot and around the net. The "hard" areas.

I'll take Weiss' blue collar skill over Filpulla's photoshoot finess anyway.

And just wait until the playoffs.....

Edited by rick zombo, 14 October 2013 - 01:20 AM.

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#114 StormJH1

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

Numbers-wise, you're looking at very similar players.  The one difference, as I see it, is that Weiss proved himself over several seasons to be a more consistent goal scorer, in addition to being a playmaking center.  Val only had one season where his goal scoring output could justify paying him as a 2nd line center, which is what he had become.  Earlier in his career, he spent time on the 3rd or 4th lines, but his offensive game never really took the next step when he got Top 6 assignments.  

 

I don't think that Red Wings fans, uniformly, were tired of Filppula's game.  Obviously, when you have a puck possession team like the Red Wings, players like Filppula are critical to that.  We missed him badly when he was hurt in 2009-10 and it looked like we might struggle to miss the Playoffs (that was the injury-riddled season).  But when it came time to pay him, you have to agree that Stephen Weiss can do his job at least as well, and potentially take another step forward with a better team.

 

Weiss is one of those players (like Sam Gagner in EDM, or David Legwand in NAS, to a lesser degree) that gets crapped on by everyone because he was highly drafted/touted and didn't blow up into a mega-star right away.  But Weiss is not Patrik Stefan, you look up a decade later and he's been a very productive NHL player in a not-very-publicized market.  And he still has some good years left to give, I think.



#115 Dabura

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:28 AM

Fil has had a goal or assist in every game with the lightning. That is pretty much the opposite of Weiss so far.

 

I said the adjustment might be easier for Flip, for several reasons. I'm not sure how you could've missed that, and why you didn't include it in the quote.

 

I'm not denying the possibility that Flip won't have a good year, maybe even a great year. Maybe even a better year than Weiss's. But I think it's pretty clear that Flip as a Red Wing wasn't really working - for him and for the Wings. So, if your point is OMG FIVE-GAME STREAK, WINGS LOST OUT BIG, THEY WILL LIVE TO REGRET LETTING THE LOVE OF THEIR LIFE GO TO TAMPA BAY, I'm not sure I agree. We need(ed) a really solid, dynamic second-line center (something Flip never really gave us), and Weiss - going on his personal track record with Florida - made perfect sense. It's not like we signed Ray Whitney.

 

BUT CLEARLY IT WAS A MISTAKE TO SIGN WEISS. HE IS NO VALTTERI FILPPULA. HE IS TERRIBLE AND WILL BE TERRIBLE FOREVER. FLIP AS A WING WAS INFINITELY BETTER

 

Also, Patrick Marleau scored 100 goals last season.


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#116 Crymson

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:38 AM



I'm sorry, but have you and I been watching different National Hockey Leagues? One in which Franzen, Sameulsson, Bertuzzi and Cleary are skilled workhorses who make the players around them better?

 

I'm sorry, but did Filppula play alongside Cleary, Bertuzzi, or Samuelsson last season? The answer is a resounding "no," making your argument utterly lacking ground upon which to stand. Cleary played almost the entirety of the season on the 3rd line (along with that short but unfortunate stint on the 1st, during which he was paired with Abdelkader and Datsyuk), and Bertuzzi and Samuelsson combined for only 11 games played in total. And Franzen? Despite being a lazy lug, he finished with almost twice as many points than Filppula in an equal number of games played and with very similar ice time (Franzen had a bit more ToI on the power play, but this hardly matters given that he was almost uniformly being used as a goalie screen). What does that say about Filppula himself?

 

And I've been saying for years, with basically everyone telling me I was wrong, that Filppula had 70 point potential. His 66 point season was a long time coming, which proved me right

 

His 66-point season means nothing in the grand scheme of things if he cannot not repeat it. More, your argument was not only that he had the potential to be productive, but that he could be a productive player. This definition entailed consistent production. 

 

next year was simply an off year in which he was weighed down by lazy linemates, a shortened season which he was injured leading up to and the pressure of a contract year. He'll scored 60 again this year, if not 70 or more.

 

Your claim is that Filppula's failure to repeat his 2011-2012 performance was due to factors in which he was completely innocent. That's very convenient and also very. untrue.

 

With regards to his linemates: Filppula spent the lion's share of the season with Franzen, who vastly outproduced him, and Zetterberg, who cannot be deemed lazy by any definition of the word. He spent much of the rest with Datsyuk or Brunner, both of whom also cannot rightly be called lazy, and the latter of whom was in his first season in the NHL and went through a slump of his own but still managed to substantially outperform Filppula. Finally, I question why you think think your argument is an effective one in the first place, given that it claims that Filppula will perform very poorly without linemates to carry him; even if the data did line up (as noted, it does not), it would only suggest that Filppula is very limited as a player.

 

Your other two arguments likewise hold no water. With regards to his injury, Filppula had two months to recover before entering play. More, his injury (an MCL sprain) was not a serious one. Finally, many players sustain injuries but, after recovery, return to perform well on the ice. Filppula did not. And with regards to the supposed pressure of a contract year: as with your argument about his linemates, I question why you're pursuing this one in the first place; it suggests only that Filppula cannot handle pressure. For the vast majority of notable scorers, the pressure of a contract year seems to have no effect upon production.

 



Fil has had a goal or assist in every game with the lightning. That is pretty much the opposite of Weiss so far.

 

For noted reasons, that is functionally irrelevant to the discussion. More, it is untrue; Filppula was pointless in his second game of the season. Further, since we've already examined his first three goals, let's do the same with his fourth: it came on a shot that hit his leg and went into the net.


Edited by Crymson, 14 October 2013 - 10:51 AM.


#117 Z and D for the C

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:48 AM

Forgive me for being excited that Flip is doing so well already with his brand new team where basically everyone here was saying "Flip sucks get rid of him". To say that Flip wasn't working as a Wing is dumb. He scored 66 points and was tied for 12th in the league in even strength scoring despite only receiving 66th as much even strength ice time. The problem wasn't Filppula, it was our wingers that are 3rd line players at best who float and can't make plays. And it will be illustrated again, this year, when Weiss doesn't do much better than Flip ever did.


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#118 Euro_Twins

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:59 AM

Forgive me for being excited that Flip is doing so well already with his brand new team where basically everyone here was saying "Flip sucks get rid of him". To say that Flip wasn't working as a Wing is dumb. He scored 66 points and was tied for 12th in the league in even strength scoring despite only receiving 66th as much even strength ice time. The problem wasn't Filppula, it was our wingers that are 3rd line players at best who float and can't make plays. And it will be illustrated again, this year, when Weiss doesn't do much better than Flip ever did.


No one said flip didn't work as a winger. He didn't work for us as a center, he produced more on the wing than he did at center. We needed a center and it was clear flip wouldn't be that guy

#119 Crymson

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:03 AM

Forgive me for being excited that Flip is doing so well already with his brand new team where basically everyone here was saying "Flip sucks get rid of him". To say that Flip wasn't working as a Wing is dumb. He scored 66 points and was tied for 12th in the league in even strength scoring despite only receiving 66th as much even strength ice time. The problem wasn't Filppula, it was our wingers that are 3rd line players at best who float and can't make plays. And it will be illustrated again, this year, when Weiss doesn't do much better than Flip ever did.

 

I've already demonstrated the the vacuity of merit to your argument about his linemates, and your reference to wingers makes no sense in any event. Filppula's 66-point season saw him playing on the left wing rather than at center; Zetterberg centered that line of himself, Filppula, and Hudler on which Filppula saw his success. Filppula was played at that position for much of last season as well, and in the majority of his games in the playoffs, but failed to do anything substantive with it. 


Edited by Crymson, 14 October 2013 - 11:08 AM.


#120 Z and D for the C

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:11 AM



 

For noted reasons, that is functionally irrelevant to the discussion. More, it is untrue; Filppula was pointless in his second game of the season. Further, since we've already examined his first three goals, let's do the same with his fourth: it deflected in off his body.

 

Filppula scored the only shootout goal in the second game to win it for the Lightning. And a goal is a goal, it means he and his linemates were doing the right thing. If we were talking about every one of his goals being a deflection off his body, like Cleary in the playoffs, you'd have a point.

 

As for his linemates, you're completely wrong.

 

http://hockey.dobber...mes=2012-2013:R

 

Yeah, he did play with Pav and Z a decent amount. But he also had to play with Cleary, Franzen and Bertuzzi a lot as well. And for a player whose role on the team was than it should be given his skills and who was over shadowed, always, but two top tier centers and has had a rocky career, yes, playing on a contract year was likely difficult. The fact is if you examine his prior 2 or 3 seasons before his 66 point season, just like you did with his goals this season, you'd see that his point totals were misleading and he had some pretty dominant stretches.

 

And for his injury, you come up completely wrong again. He sprained his MCL mid November and the season started mid January. He was skating for barely a couple weeks before the season started and probably only because the season was starting. I think you can definitely say his knee was bothering him during the season as it was obvious he wasn't skating as well as he normally does.

 

http://redwings.nhl....s.htm?id=649718

http://www.cbssports...nd-out-68-weeks

 

I'm not arguing that Filppula is a bonafide super star or that he's never had consistency issues.


No one said flip didn't work as a winger. He didn't work for us as a center, he produced more on the wing than he did at center. We needed a center and it was clear flip wouldn't be that guy

 

It has nothing to do with what position he played. The different was he played with hard working players who could make plays.

 

 

vacuity of merit

 

Stop trying so hard. Find a person who thinks that any of the four forwards I mentioned are hard working players shift in shift out (you know, like Filppula).


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