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Question about Buying out Samuelsson


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#61 joshy207

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:02 PM

 

Saying someone else performed worse does not mean Holland did well. Holland has made some TERRIBLE FA acquisitions in the past. Jason Williams, Sammy, Hatcher, Conklin, Exelby, Calder, Cross, etc.

 

The only FAs there were really any good were Lang, Bert, Rafalski, Hossa, Miller, Eaves, Hasek 2.0.

 

The past 10 years is a big enough sample size to determine that FA, and trades are not Holland's strong points. He's good at managing the cap, drafting, and re-signing.

Conklin played well in his first stint here, who knew he'd crap the bed the second time around... Calder was a trade, Exelby was for GR depth, Cross was a trade... Lang was a trade, too.  Yes, Holland has made some very questionable signings and has not pulled the trigger on others.  But some of these guys you listed weren't supposed to play big roles or even be on the roster...



#62 mjtm77

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:09 PM

 

Seriously? Hatcher was a bruising defenseman who didn't do poorly, but rather suffered a knee injury early on. Exelby was on a two-way contract and played in the AHL. Calder was acquired via trade, a trade that dumped Williams the first time and helped the Wings get the 1st seed in the 2007 playoffs. Cross was a trade, and was gotten for virtually nothing. Miller was acquired on waivers. Lang was acquired by trade. Bertuzzi was also originally acquired by trade.

If you're going to make these sorts of claims, at least get your information right. And yes, Holland is a better GM than Yzerman. Unlike Steve, he's able to build and maintain a viable team. By any standards whatsoever---barring the "We suck if we don't win the Cup every year" measure---Holland has done brilliantly in his 15 years as GM. There are many people here who are simply so accustomed to success that anything beneath perfection seems terrible.

By comparison, Yzerman received a young team that featured some good defensemen, some excellent forwards, and the best goal-scorer in the world, and then apparently decided that he didn't need to worry about goaltending or defense anymore. The team he inherited made the WCF, then promptly bombed in the next two seasons.

Yzerman at gm makes me puke.  He's not doing very good.


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#63 whitey

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

 

From what I can understand of the CBA, it does appear that Samuelsson's $3 million/year contract would be eligible for a buyout "outside of the regular period." If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see them exercise one if he is healthy (otherwise on LTIR) and to either trade or demote Emmerton.
 

 

11.18 Ordinary Course Buy-Outs Outside the Regular Period. Clubs shall have the right to

exercise Ordinary Course Buy-Outs outside the regular period for Ordinary Course Buy-Outs in

accordance with Paragraph 13©(ii) of the SPC. Each Club shall be limited to no more than

three (3) such Buy-Outs outside the regular period over the term of this Agreement pursuant to

Paragraph 13 of the SPC. However, in the event that a Club has only one salary arbitration

hearing pursuant to Section 12.3(a) in a given League Year, such Club shall not be entitled to

exercise such an Ordinary Course Buy-Out outside the regular period. Moreover, a Club shall

not be entitled to exercise an Ordinary Course Buy-Out outside the regular period for: (i) any

Player who was not on the Club's Reserve List as of the most recent Trade Deadline, or (ii) any

Player with an Averaged Amount less than $2,750,000. The dollar amount of $2,750,000 set

forth in this Section 11.18 shall be increased on an annual basis at the same percentage rate of

annual increase as the Average League Salary, with the first such increase occurring based upon

a comparison of the 2014/15 Average League Salary to the 2013/14 Average League Salary. By

way of example, if the Average League Salary for the 2014/15 League Year has increased by ten

(10) percent from the Average League Salary for the 2013/14 League Year, then the figure of

$2,750,000 stated in Section 11.18, shall be increased by ten (10) percent to $3,025,000.

http://cdn.agilitycm...PA_2013_CBA.pdf

 

 

You basically need to have two players going through arbitration.  That could still happen with the Wings, but not likely.



#64 GMRwings1983

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:19 PM

 

Yep, Yzerman has been much better. Unlike Holland, he knows that defense and good goaltending are completely unnecessary.

 

Yzerman went to a s*** franchise, while Holland inherited the best team in the league and had plenty of money to work with for a long time, and a place that could draw free agents.

 

I want to see Holland succeed in Tampa before you laud him and blast Yzerman.  


 

The team Holland inherited won the Stanley Cup in 98.   His first big moves as a GM were to acquire Ulf Samuelsson, Wendel Clark and Bill Ranford.  Chelios I can't give him much credit for because it fell into his lap the way Pronger did the Ducks.  Then in spite of his additions to an already great team, the next 3 seasons the Wings lost in the 2nd round twice and 1st round once.  

 

Was that all Holland's fault?  Nope.  But neither was it all Stevie's in Tampa.  It very much remains to be seen what kind of GM Yzerman will be.  

 

Holland has excelled at making adjustments to keep the great team he inherited at the top of the league.  He's also done a very good job adjusting to the salary cap.  But rebuilding is quite a different thing and while it's early yet, so far his track record is a lot spottier. 

 

Exactly.  


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#65 Euro_Twins

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:31 PM

 

You basically need to have two players going through arbitration.  That could still happen with the Wings, but not likely.

 

If we convinced Smith and Andy to take us to arbitration, that would make sammy eligible for an ordinary buyout, which only leave us on the hook for 1 mil of his cap, thus freeing up another 2 million giving us lots of space for goose, andy, and smith. We might even have a little breathing room in case of emergency too


CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
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Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) 
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Gustav Nyquist ($1.500m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) 
Drew Miller ($1.350m) / Joakim Andersson ($1.000m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) 
Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) 
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Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) 
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.400m) 
Brendan Smith ($1.200m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) 
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) 
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m) 
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m) 
OTHER
Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($1.000m) 
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#66 Crymson

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:33 PM

 

Yzerman went to a s*** franchise, while Holland inherited the best team in the league and had plenty of money to work with for a long time, and a place that could draw free agents.

 

Yzerman went to a franchise that had all the tools it needed to go deep in the playoffs. Both Stamkos and MSL had brilliant seasons, and the team had an excellent array of secondary scoring and young players. He signed some players, yes, and his trade for Roloson was important. However, it was also the last beneficial thing he did for the team. He had one good season as a GM, playing with a free hand and building around a strong core. He has done poorly ever since.
 

You might as well say that Ray Shero went to a crap franchise. Steven Stamkos is one of the best hockey players on the planet, alone a difference-maker on the same order as Ovechkin or Malkin, and St. Louis is a top-notch forward as well. Despite Tampa's strong offense, Yzerman has inexplicably continued to ignore defense and goaltending, despite how immensely obvious it is to everyone on the planet that his organization is fatally flawed in these areas. 



#67 GMRwings1983

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:16 PM

 

Yzerman went to a franchise that had all the tools it needed to go deep in the playoffs. Both Stamkos and MSL had brilliant seasons, and the team had an excellent array of secondary scoring and young players. He signed some players, yes, and his trade for Roloson was important. However, it was also the last beneficial thing he did for the team. He had one good season as a GM, playing with a free hand and building around a strong core. He has done poorly ever since.
 

You might as well say that Ray Shero went to a crap franchise. Steven Stamkos is one of the best hockey players on the planet, alone a difference-maker on the same order as Ovechkin or Malkin, and St. Louis is a top-notch forward as well. Despite Tampa's strong offense, Yzerman has inexplicably continued to ignore defense and goaltending, despite how immensely obvious it is to everyone on the planet that his organization is fatally flawed in these areas. 

 

Tampa didn't have that much besides the big 3, even when they almost made the Finals in 2011.  They got there with smoke and mirrors playing guys like Downie, Purcell, Bergheinheim, Moore, etc., who all played well above expectations in the playoffs.  That's why the last two seasons they played more like they should with that roster.  

 

It's hard to turn around a losing culture.  Much harder than anything Holland has had to do.    


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#68 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:30 PM

 

You basically need to have two players going through arbitration.  That could still happen with the Wings, but not likely.

 

Makes you wonder about the people coming up with these rules. What would be the reason for tying arbitration and buyouts?



#69 The Axe

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:14 PM

 
You basically need to have two players going through arbitration.  That could still happen with the Wings, but not likely.

The lightbulb just went off in my head.

The Wings will let Smith, Nyquist, and Andersson go to salary arbitration so they can can Sammy, Bert, and Tootoo with ordinary buyouts. That leaves Sammy at 1.05 for 2 years, Bert at .65 for two years, and Tootoo at .65 for 4 years.

Basically, 4.4 mil in cap space cleared.

Edited by The Axe, 08 July 2013 - 09:17 PM.


#70 Son of a Wing

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:38 PM

 

Makes you wonder about the people coming up with these rules. What would be the reason for tying arbitration and buyouts?

 

Here's an article discussing the basics of it.  It's from 2011 but is still very relevant as the rule has not changed. It discusses the thought process behind it and how it pertained to the Rangers and Glen Sather/Chris Drury then.

 

 

The lightbulb just went off in my head.

The Wings will let Smith, Nyquist, and Andersson go to salary arbitration so they can can Sammy, Bert, and Tootoo with ordinary buyouts. That leaves Sammy at 1.05 for 2 years, Bert at .65 for two years, and Tootoo at .65 for 4 years.

Basically, 4.4 mil in cap space cleared.

 

 

Only Sammy is eligible as the other two don't make the required $2,750,000/annually in salary.


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#71 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:23 PM

I'm so lost now on the whole Sammy buyout thing. Everyone on here posting different links and what not. It's like this is what the CBA rule is. No the CBA says this. No I'm right and your wrong.

 

Surely there has to be some sort of credible info on this.



#72 Jesusberg

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:38 PM

I'm so lost now on the whole Sammy buyout thing. Everyone on here posting different links and what not. It's like this is what the CBA rule is. No the CBA says this. No I'm right and your wrong.

 

Surely there has to be some sort of credible info on this.

 

Reading over every thing, it's my understand that two players would have to take the Red Wings to arbitration in order for the team to buy-out Samuelsson. There is no "regular buy-out" period - just a second buyout period that can only happen if the arbitration does.

So basically, Holland would have to low-ball two of the guys (let's say Andersson and Smith, I think Nyquist would be awarded the highest number) until they filed for arbitration. Seems like kind of an ugly situation.

 

Edit: Did I mention I really don`t like Mikael Samuelsson right now, or Holland`s decision making last summer...


Edited by Jesusberg, 08 July 2013 - 11:39 PM.


#73 martinezsvsu

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:44 PM

just because stevie didnt draft jones doesnt mean he completely ignores bettering his defense. hedman was supposed to be a number 1 stud defender by now, he signed salo, clark, kubina, carle. he looks to he a good future player in sustr. but yes he has done a poor job at tb because he keeps overpaying for players.



#74 Crymson

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:20 AM

just because stevie didnt draft jones doesnt mean he completely ignores bettering his defense. hedman was supposed to be a number 1 stud defender by now, he signed salo, clark, kubina, carle. he looks to he a good future player in sustr. but yes he has done a poor job at tb because he keeps overpaying for players.

 

Having been a player for a long time, Yzerman knows better than to bank on draft picks becoming stars. Salo was an injury-prone, one-way defenseman near the end of his career; Kubina wasn't much different; Carle is overpaid and poor defensively; and Clark had only one decent season and is no longer with the team. In fact, Steve's very first move as GM was to move Meszaros, who would probably be one of the best defenseman on the team had he been kept. And there's no disputing that Yzerman's lack of focus on goaltending has been disastrous for the team.



#75 Louisville

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:58 AM

 

You do realize a number of names you point out as free agent acquisitions were in fact NOT free agent acquisitions?  Calder, Cross, & Lang for example were acquired via trade & Miller was a waiver pick up.

 

Also, as badly as Hatcher worked out a lot of teams at the time wanted him. We were thrilled when we signed him.



#76 kylee

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:43 AM

 

Also, as badly as Hatcher worked out a lot of teams at the time wanted him. We were thrilled when we signed him.

hindsight is always 20/20. Hatcher was a big move at the time.



#77 DeGraa55

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:39 AM

My thing with Holland is he inherited a good team and good prospects. Holland truly shouldnt be considered great or bad yet. I'd say give it another five to ten years. See how he does when DAT and z are gone. If we win another cup in the next five years or cup or two in the next ten years then I believe that says everything we need to know about Holland. But on the other hand if we started to miss playoffs that says a lot as well.


These last two off season really have pissed me off. But Holland can still turn it around without a doubt. A few trades really can go an long way. Were two players away from greatness but two top end players.

Signing Sammy, cola, and monster to two years deals was pure stupidity. But it looks as he learned by doing 1 year to Alfie. But if he gives cleary three years....well we won't go there.

Also the constant quotes of "were looking for a top end defenseman or a top 6 forward but unfortunately the asking prices are too high" anger me. YOU CANT GET TALENT WITHOUT GIVING UP TALENT. WHY DOES HOLLAND THINK HE CAN ACQUIRE A SUPERSTAR FOR EMMERTON? Its not rocket science.

Edited by DeGraa55, 09 July 2013 - 04:41 AM.


#78 VM1138

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:51 AM

 

Yzerman went to a s*** franchise, while Holland inherited the best team in the league and had plenty of money to work with for a long time, and a place that could draw free agents.

  

 

I think you're overly negative when it comes to Holland.  You're right that it can be harder to land talent for a bottom feeder like Tampa.  But Yzerman isn't doing good, as much as I hate to say it.  He's making questionable trades, seemingly random free agent signings, and sometimes completely neglects a team need.  He continues to chase offense when they need goaltending and defense.

 

Plus, a lot of talent DOElike to play in nice climates, whether the team is good or not.  It's not entirely his environment that is hamstringing Yzerman.  He's just not doing great. Holland, however, makes nuanced, careful moves (which is why I imagine a lot of people hate him) but they're usually carefully calculated to address certain needs, and they usually work.  

 

Yes, last off-season was awful, but Holland didn't have many options.  Suter was the only really good d-man available, and we didn't get him because of personal reasons.  


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#79 larionov_8

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:29 PM

 

Here's an article discussing the basics of it.  It's from 2011 but is still very relevant as the rule has not changed. It discusses the thought process behind it and how it pertained to the Rangers and Glen Sather/Chris Drury then.

 

 

 

 

Only Sammy is eligible as the other two don't make the required $2,750,000/annually in salary.

 

Great article, thanks for providing that. It clarifies the waters somewhat.
 

The author also mentions that not all RFAs are eligible for arbitration. Based on their ages and # of games played, I believe all three DET RFAs would be eligible. But if anyone is curious at looking closer, I pasted the arbitration eligibility rules below.

 

Whether Holland would actually be willing to ask the player agents to consider arbitration, I'm not so sure. But perhaps this rule does empower him to offer the RFAs the minimum required (I think it's 110% of their current salary, so somewhere just south of $1 million each), and see what happens.. Currently Capgeek has the Wings at 2.3 mil in cap space, so if each were signed to $1 million only, they could be under the cap by only moving Eaves' or Tootoo's contract or even via $1 cap relief of burying Samuelsson in the minors (plus Emmerton, for the roster spot). .

 

Of course, if an arbitrator awarded 2 or 3 of the RFAs a significant raise, that could create all kinds of new problems.

-----  
 

12.1 Eligibility for Player or Club Election of Salary Arbitration.

(a) A Player is eligible for salary arbitration if the Player meets the qualifications set forth in the following chart and in Section 12.1(b) below:

 

First SPC Signing Age: 

Minimum Level of Professional Experience Required to be Eligible for Salary Arbitration

 

18-20: 4 years professional experience

21: 3 years professional experience

22-23: 2 years professional experience

24 and older: 1 year professional experience

 

A Player aged 18 or 19 earns a year of professional experience by playing ten (10) or more NHL

Games in a given season. A Player aged 20 or older (or who turns 20 between September 16 and

December 31 of the calendar year in which he signs his first SPC) earns a year of professional

experience by playing ten (10) or more Professional Games under an SPC in a given season.

 

(b) Only Players who qualify as Restricted Free Agents as described in Section 10.2

of this Agreement, who meet the qualifications in Section 12.1(a) above, and who have not

signed an Offer Sheet are eligible either to elect salary arbitration or be subject to a Club-elected

salary arbitration.

 

© As used in this Article, "age," including "First SPC Signing Age," means a

Player's age on September 15 of the calendar year in which he first signs an SPC regardless of

his actual age on the date he signs such SPC.



#80 blgillett

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:52 PM

 
Having been a player for a long time, Yzerman knows better than to bank on draft picks becoming stars. Salo was an injury-prone, one-way defenseman near the end of his career; Kubina wasn't much different; Carle is overpaid and poor defensively; and Clark had only one decent season and is no longer with the team. In fact, Steve's very first move as GM was to move Meszaros, who would probably be one of the best defenseman on the team had he been kept. And there's no disputing that Yzerman's lack of focus on goaltending has been disastrous for the

team.

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