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kronner a #1?


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#41 Crymson

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:21 PM

I would have a hard time naming 60 defensemen to be honest, I don't follow all the teams but here is a list of guys that are for sure better: Chara, Letang, Weber, Suter, Keith, Seabrook, Pietrangelo, Phaneuf, Karlson, Staal, Doughty, Shattenkirk (younger + cheaper) the expectations for a number 1 defenseman are obviously high and this already excludes franchise guys like Lidström (hope his son will fill in for him).

 

 

Letang is a #1 defenseman in the offensive zone, and a #6 in his own zone; Seabrook has his terrible periods; Phaneuf is a bonehead who is regularly bailed out by his defense partner; Staal has a history of concussions, and his vision may never return to normal; Doughty is perpetually overrated and isn't even the #1 defenseman on his team; and Shattenkirk is poor in his own end.

 

In any event, if you're going to call Kronwall a 2nd-pairing defenseman, then you ought to be able to find 60 guys who are better than he is. It's that simple.


Edited by Crymson, 15 July 2013 - 04:22 PM.


#42 newfy

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

On a team that finished top 5 in goals against he was by far the best dman on the team. He was one of the few returning guys on that bllue line and stabiliized it quite a bit. He finished top 10 in Norris voting this season and plays both ends of the ice.

 

Hes a number 1 dman and pretty easily top 20. Anyone who calls guys like Letang, Phaneuf (lol), Shattenkirk and even Staal are wrong in their evaluation. If those guys played on the wings you would see just as many mistakes or more. Its a case of the grass is always greener, the wings dont have a franchise dman but they have a solid number 1 guy. If they could find a number 2 to play with him he would look much better. If Kronwall is a number 2 D on a team that team would have one of the best defensive units in hockey guaranteed


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#43 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:57 PM

I kind of think Kronwall seems like a #2 D man, but frankly after having Lidstrom as the #1 for so long, it's hard for me to judge.  

 

Lidstrom gave a very warped sense of what a #1 D-man looks like (as in, superhuman).



#44 blgillett

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:28 PM

Sad state of affairs for our D when the king of give aways is our #1. He has gotten better I think he would be fine with a true #1 D man
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#45 Red Crazy

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:30 PM

Kronner is capable of being in a good 1-2 pairing but with him he needs a really good shut down partner. He still needs somebody to bail him out when he gets caught out of position and allows him to jump up into the play or to go after some hits. To me Detroit still needs to find him a partner.  



#46 blgillett

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:35 PM

[quote name="newfy" post="2430204" timestamp="1373925516"]

On a team that finished top 5 in goals against he was by far the best dman on the team. He was one of the few returning guys on that bllue line and stabiliized it quite a bit. He finished top 10 in Norris voting this season and plays both ends of the ice.
 
Hes a number 1 dman and pretty easily top 20. Anyone who calls guys like Letang, Phaneuf (lol), Shattenkirk and even Staal are wrong in their evaluation. If those guys played on the wings you would see just as many mistakes or more. Its a case of the grass is always greener, the wings dont have a franchise dman but they have a solid number 1 guy. If they could find a number 2 to play with him he would look much better. If Kronwall is a number 2 D on a team that team would have one of the best defensive units in hockey guaranteed[/quot
e]
I think we finished that high mainly because of our great defensive play of our forwards and our young D-men improved greatly

I kind of think Kronwall seems like a #2 D man, but frankly after having Lidstrom as the #1 for so long, it's hard for me to judge.  
 
Lidstrom gave a very warped sense of what a #1 D-man looks like (as in, superhuman).

Yup your right on maybe he should head up the 2nd line
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#47 Echolalia

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:37 PM

Kronwall is absolutely a legit number 1 defenseman. I think LGW has a bit of a high bar when defining what a number one defensmen is, considering half this board has only ever experienced Lidstrom up until now.

#48 DatsyukToZetterberg

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:39 PM

You mean he didn't score 70+, win the Norris in a landslide and kick Hossa in the nuts?

 

Trade him.  Not even worth the material they use to make his jersey.



#49 brett

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

i hated everything about him beginning of the season, he stepped it up at the end. hes our number 1. hes capable. i cant think of many other dmen that can play a 2 way game like him



#50 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:50 AM

I kind of think Kronwall seems like a #2 D man, but frankly after having Lidstrom as the #1 for so long, it's hard for me to judge.  

 

Lidstrom gave a very warped sense of what a #1 D-man looks like (as in, superhuman).

Lidstrom was a defensive kingpin.  Now we have Kronner as our #1 with a new mentality.  The boys don't have the luxury of looking down the bench to see Lids.  Kronwall had his ups and downs last season, but ultimately improved greatly throughout the year and the Wings adopted a "defense by committee" philosophy.  As a result, we saw Kronwall struggle a lot at first and then everyone stepped up and took a lot of pressure off him.  Ericsson showed us he's the real deal for a shutdown Dman.  Kindl earned a spot in the top 4 and silenced us all as fans that were ready to let him walk.  Smith had some growing pains, but had flashes of brilliance and showed he's not intimidated by forechecks, he stands them up.  DeKeyser stepped in and looked like a seasoned vet, Lashoff was a capable defensive Dman, and Quincey improved a lot over the season and was really good in the playoffs.  All in all, Kronwall doesn't need to be a big time Dman, we just need 6 guys that play well together and keep them together.  The Kings D corps isn't even as good as ours and they won the Cup 2 years ago. 


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#51 The Axe

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:55 AM

Lidstrom was a defensive kingpin.  Now we have Kronner as our #1 with a new mentality.  The boys don't have the luxury of looking down the bench to see Lids.  Kronwall had his ups and downs last season, but ultimately improved greatly throughout the year and the Wings adopted a "defense by committee" philosophy.  As a result, we saw Kronwall struggle a lot at first and then everyone stepped up and took a lot of pressure off him.  Ericsson showed us he's the real deal for a shutdown Dman.  Kindl earned a spot in the top 4 and silenced us all as fans that were ready to let him walk.  Smith had some growing pains, but had flashes of brilliance and showed he's not intimidated by forechecks, he stands them up.  DeKeyser stepped in and looked like a seasoned vet, Lashoff was a capable defensive Dman, and Quincey improved a lot over the season and was really good in the playoffs.  All in all, Kronwall doesn't need to be a big time Dman, we just need 6 guys that play well together and keep them together.  The Kings D corps isn't even as good as ours and they won the Cup 2 years ago. 


Good call. I feel like we have 6 guys who all fall into the range between top #2 to middle #3 (maybe im a little homerish in that take?). I think that may be better than having a solid #1, a #3, and 4 guys who play between 4 and 6 level (2012).

#52 Dabura

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 09:07 AM

Honestly, we've been spoiled. I mean, think of all the high-end defenders we've had over the last couple decades or so. Lidstrom, Chelios, Rafalski, Coffey, Konstantinov, Lebda, Krupp....It's almost silly.

 

At the same time, though, I'm not big on Kronwall being our #1. Or, maybe it's more that there seems to be sort of a sharp drop-off after him. Ideally, we go out and land a quality first-pairing defensive defenseman - because I have a hard time seeing this current corps winning a Cup. Overachieving and being "under the radar" is nice and all...but if our goal is a Cup? We need to bolster the back end. (Preferably before Zetterberg and Datsyuk get too far up there in  age.)


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#53 WingedWheel91

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:05 PM

Kronwall is not a number 1. Nor is he a number 2 - because there is no such thing as a "# 2 Defenceman". The question or thread should have asked whether is Nick a "top pairing Defenceman" which is debatable. In my opinion, the answer is no... And I say this primarily because he doesn't have the defensive instincts needed to play against the other teams top offensive line (reference his career plus minus to verify this statement).

He is however, an elite second paring defenseman - as shown in his career stats, his best years were in 2007-08 and in 2008-09, where he played on the second pairing behind Lidstrom and Rafalski. Outside of 2007 where put up a plus 25 rating, he has only been better than +5 once and in the past 5 seasons COMBINED he is only managed a +5 rating. What's even more trivial to me however, is the fact the the Red Wings have had a goal differential of +137 since that time and he has had only two different defence partners in Stuart and Ericsson, who play a similar sound defensive game.

Overall, I believe we are in need of an elite puck moving defenseman to play on a top line with Dekeyser so we can better utilize Kronwall and Ericcson from the second pairing.

(This does not mean I think Dekeyser is a better player than Kronwall, but certainly better suited for a top pairing role with a very good puck mover - something we are in drastic need of)

Yandle-Dekeyser
Kronwall-Ericcson

That's what I call a top 4.

Edited by WingedWheel91, 16 July 2013 - 12:11 PM.


#54 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:29 PM

Kronwall is not a number 1. Nor is he a number 2 - because there is no such thing as a "# 2 Defenceman". The question or thread should have asked whether is Nick a "top pairing Defenceman" which is debatable. In my opinion, the answer is no... And I say this primarily because he doesn't have the defensive instincts needed to play against the other teams top offensive line (reference his career plus minus to verify this statement).

He is however, an elite second paring defenseman - as shown in his career stats, his best years were in 2007-08 and in 2008-09, where he played on the second pairing behind Lidstrom and Rafalski. Outside of 2007 where put up a plus 25 rating, he has only been better than +5 once and in the past 5 seasons COMBINED he is only managed a +5 rating. What's even more trivial to me however, is the fact the the Red Wings have had a goal differential of +137 since that time and he has had only two different defence partners in Stuart and Ericsson, who play a similar sound defensive game.

Overall, I believe we are in need of an elite puck moving defenseman to play on a top line with Dekeyser so we can better utilize Kronwall and Ericcson from the second pairing.

(This does not mean I think Dekeyser is a better player than Kronwall, but certainly better suited for a top pairing role with a very good puck mover - something we are in drastic need of)

Yandle-Dekeyser
Kronwall-Ericcson

That's what I call a top 4.

 Yandle and Kronwall are basically the same Dman, except Kronwall hits harder.

 

And for a top 4, wait 2 years and here's your top 4 with Kronwall on the 2nd pairing:

 

Sproul-DeKeyser

Kronwall-Ericsson

 

And you can round out the 3rd pairing with Ouellet-Kindl with Backman as our 7th.  Anyone who worries about our D hasn't paid much attention to our forwards and the scoring troubles the past couple years.  There's bigger fish to fry there.


Edited by Z Winged Dangler, 16 July 2013 - 12:58 PM.

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#55 DickieDunn

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:48 PM

Kronwall is not a number 1. Nor is he a number 2 - because there is no such thing as a "# 2 Defenceman". The question or thread should have asked whether is Nick a "top pairing Defenceman" which is debatable. In my opinion, the answer is no... And I say this primarily because he doesn't have the defensive instincts needed to play against the other teams top offensive line (reference his career plus minus to verify this statement).
He is however, an elite second paring defenseman - as shown in his career stats, his best years were in 2007-08 and in 2008-09, where he played on the second pairing behind Lidstrom and Rafalski. Outside of 2007 where put up a plus 25 rating, he has only been better than +5 once and in the past 5 seasons COMBINED he is only managed a +5 rating. What's even more trivial to me however, is the fact the the Red Wings have had a goal differential of +137 since that time and he has had only two different defence partners in Stuart and Ericsson, who play a similar sound defensive game.
Overall, I believe we are in need of an elite puck moving defenseman to play on a top line with Dekeyser so we can better utilize Kronwall and Ericcson from the second pairing.
(This does not mean I think Dekeyser is a better player than Kronwall, but certainly better suited for a top pairing role with a very good puck mover - something we are in drastic need of)
Yandle-Dekeyser
Kronwall-Ericcson
That's what I call a top 4.


So based on a handful of games you believe Dekeyser is ready to play against the best players in the world every shift?

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#56 Crymson

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

Overall, I believe we are in need of an elite puck moving defenseman to play on a top line with Dekeyser so we can better utilize Kronwall and Ericcson from the second pairing.

(This does not mean I think Dekeyser is a better player than Kronwall, but certainly better suited for a top pairing role with a very good puck mover - something we are in drastic need of)

Yandle-Dekeyser
Kronwall-Ericcson

That's what I call a top 4.

 

 

The fact aside that you probably couldn't list 60 defenseman who are better than Kronwall, that top pairing would get eaten alive. DeKeyser has played less than 20 games at the NHL level, and Yandle is just a few steps above outright bad in his own zone. For that matter, there are quite a few who would take Kronwall over Yandle.

The proof is in the pudding: Kronwall and Ericsson did just fine as a first pairing.


Edited by Crymson, 16 July 2013 - 01:16 PM.


#57 DickieDunn

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:11 PM

To be fair that might work as a top 4. You just need to play your second pair more than the first.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#58 WingedWheel91

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:47 PM

So based on a handful of games you believe Dekeyser is ready to play against the best players in the world every shift?


Depends on who his partner would be - but yes, based on what ive seen and what most educated analysts believe, if he played with someone like a Keith Yandle I certainly think that's a #1 pairing. If not this year, next year for sure... He has an all around game that fits with a lot of different players though.

#59 WingedWheel91

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:54 PM

The fact aside that you probably couldn't list 60 defenseman who are better than Kronwall, that top pairing would get eaten alive. DeKeyser has played less than 20 games at the NHL level, and Yandle is just a few steps above outright bad in his own zone. For that matter, there are quite a few who would take Kronwall over Yandle.
The proof is in the pudding: Kronwall and Ericsson did just fine as a first pairing.


I apologize I didn't really clarify what expectations I based my interpretation of Kronwall as a second pairing guy were, which was a championship winning team.

Yes, Kronwall would be a suitable #1 on more than half of the teams in the NHL - and maybe more, but I believe for us to truly be considered a cup favourite he's better suited with Ericsson on the second pairing.

His best years I noted - were the two years we played in the Stanley Cup Final, played on the second pairing... Now this isn't to compare Yandle or whoever we could find and Dekeyser to Lidstrom and Rafalski, but I believe Kronwalls defensive inefficientcies don't match up to the best forwards in the world.

#60 DickieDunn

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:47 PM

The fact aside that you probably couldn't list 60 defenseman who are better than Kronwall, that top pairing would get eaten alive. DeKeyser has played less than 20 games at the NHL level, and Yandle is just a few steps above outright bad in his own zone. For that matter, there are quite a few who would take Kronwall over Yandle.
The proof is in the pudding: Kronwall and Ericsson did just fine as a first pairing.

I apologize I didn't really clarify what expectations I based my interpretation of Kronwall as a second pairing guy were, which was a championship winning team.
Yes, Kronwall would be a suitable #1 on more than half of the teams in the NHL - and maybe more, but I believe for us to truly be considered a cup favourite he's better suited with Ericsson on the second pairing.
His best years I noted - were the two years we played in the Stanley Cup Final, played on the second pairing... Now this isn't to compare Yandle or whoever we could find and Dekeyser to Lidstrom and Rafalski, but I believe Kronwalls defensive inefficientcies don't match up to the best forwards in the world.


Go watch Yandle. Kronwall is easily better defensively. I also think that a contender's #1 guy should kill penalties. Other than s 7 game stint with the team in 06-07 Yandle's top season of sh toi/GM was 33 seconds. This year in 48 games he played a total of 3:58 sh.

29 skaters played at least one game for Detroit this year. 20 of them averaged more pk time than Yandle. Helm played more pk in his one game than Yandle did all season.

OEL is the Coyotes #1 guy anyway, so your boy isn't even a #1 in Phoenix

Edited by DickieDunn, 16 July 2013 - 02:48 PM.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!






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